General sort of question

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

given the rather heated discussions in the B&S forum regarding evolution, i was curious if the Baha'i faith, in general, supports or refutes biological evolution?

i am especially curious in light of my understanding of the progressive nature of Baha'i revelations and i'm wondering if that applies to the universe and, in particular, biological species on earth.

metta,

~v

 

[Popeyesays]

Namaste all,

given the rather heated discussions in the B&S forum regarding evolution, i was curious if the Baha'i faith, in general, supports or refutes biological evolution?

i am especially curious in light of my understanding of the progressive nature of Baha'i revelations and i'm wondering if that applies to the universe and, in particular, biological species on earth.

metta,

~v

Hello Vajradhara and Namaste right back.

We believe man has always been man, and man (wherever he may be found) possesses a rational soul.

Now as to evolution as a physical mechanic to help explain the diversity of God's Creation - sure.

Evolution goes right down to the basics of matter and energy. Quarks stick together and make larger particles, larger particles stick together and make atoms, small atoms transmute into heavier elements, molecules come together, some molecules become a live eventually when they have accreted sufficiently with other molecules, and life advances.

One can see evolution in the development of the embryo. What need has a human for gills, yet gills develop during the development of the human embryo.

The spirit and the body are two different things. Creation by God from an intelligent plan and the idea of evolution as a tool of that Creation are in complete harmony.

Is the "theory" of evolution completely correct as we know it? No. We will continue to learn and the model will be refined and our understanding will grow, and that new understanding will lead to newer understandings - it is an "evolution" of understanding.

There is such a thing as spiritual evolution, too.

"Therefore I hope that whether you be in the east or the west you will strive with heart and soul in order that day by day the world of humanity may become glorified, more spiritual, more sanctified; and that the splendor of the Sun of Reality may be revealed fully in human hearts as in a mirror. This is worthy of the world of mankind. This is the true evolution and progress of humanity. This is the supreme bestowal. Otherwise, by simple development along material lines man is not perfected. At most, the physical aspect of man, his natural or material conditions may become stabilized and improved but he will remain deprived of the spiritual or divine bestowal. He is then like a body without a spirit, a lamp without the light, an eye without the power of vision, an ear that hears no sound, a mind incapable of perceiving, an intellect minus the power of reason."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 262)

 

[arthra]

Baha'i views on evolution:

Namaste all,

given the rather heated discussions in the B&S forum regarding evolution, i was curious if the Baha'i faith, in general, supports or refutes biological evolution?

i am especially curious in light of my understanding of the progressive nature of Baha'i revelations and i'm wondering if that applies to the universe and, in particular, biological species on earth.

metta,

~v

Yes there's been a lot of problems lately.

I think i posted on that forum though quite some time ago.

Abdul-Baha addressed the issue of evolution in talks recxorded in a book called "Some Answered Questions":

"To recapitulate: as man in the womb of the mother passes from form to form, from shape to shape, changes and develops, and is still the human species from the beginning of the embryonic period--in the same way man, from the beginning of his existence in the matrix of the world, is also a distinct species--that is, man--and has gradually evolved from one form to another. Therefore, this change of appearance, this evolution of members, this development and growth, even though we admit the reality of growth and progress, [i.e., if we admit, for example, that man had formerly been a quadruped, or had had a tail.] does not prevent the species from being original."

My understanding is that basically Baha'is believe the universe has been around forever and that life forms change. We do believe however that the human species has always been unique even though it has changed in appearance...so we do not believe there is a "missing link". I think the term "human".."sentient being" and so on are really interchangeable.

I tried to post a reference to an essay by a Duane Troxel on our views of life on other worlds which also relates here but it was deleted...so will not do so again here.

I'm going to make a reference though to an essay by Julio Savio and hope that it does not also get deleted:

http://bahai-library.com/?file=savi_eternal_quest_god

A small part of that essay has the following:

"... the process of evolution can be viewed as that process through which those perfections which were engraved within each created being when it was brought into existence find an ever more complete expression, until that being reaches an apex called maturity. `Abdu'l-Bahá says: `All beings, whether large or small, were created perfect and complete from the first, but their perfections appear in them by degrees...'.[180] Each created being possesses in itself -- like a seed -- potential perfections. Evolution is that process through which those perfections manifest themselves. What that created being will become depends, on the one hand, on its potential endowments, on the other, on the natural laws which start, move and guide its development, and finally on many external circumstances which interact with it, influencing its possibility of expressing those same perfections it was imbued with at its creation."

There's also an entire chapter on human evolution.

- Art

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste popeyes and arthra,


thank you for the posts.

popy.. i would perfer to remain with biological evolution for our discussion. it tends to keep the discussion a bit more focused.


arthra... in my parlance, sentient beings is a term that includes many more life forms than human beings... human is an expression of our being-ness

so.. if i understand, you do believe in the changing of allele frequencies in a population?

metta,

~v

 

[iBrian]

Re: Baha'i views on evolution:

I tried to post a reference to an essay by a Duane Troxel on our views of life on other worlds which also relates here but it was deleted...so will not do so again here.

I'm going to make a reference though to an essay by Julio Savio and hope that it does not also get deleted:

There's nothing wrong at all in promoting a Baha'i view of a question raised on the Baha'i board - if you have any questions or concerns about posting policy, do feel free to PM me.

 

[smkolins]

The overall question follows a norm, believe it or not, where the Baha'i Faith takes a position fundamentally between the two generally taken in the world. I wouldn't say the position the Faith takes is like this because we seek to be between the other positions. To me it seems more that the world is prone to taking opposing positions.

On evolution it's atheistic evolution or creationism. Granted of course others have middling positions too. The Baha'i Faith accepts that physical evolution happens, details to be worked out by scientific investigation. And the Baha'i Faith maintains that this evolutions does not remove the inherent qualities of mankind. Our spirit does not depend on bipedal upright stance with opposable thumbs or even a certain brain size. It was recently found that a certain crow (a bird) was making tools in order to get food. Shocked the world. Anyone who studies animals closely knows we don't credit them properly.

Another implication of this view of evolution must account for civilization. Mind that civilization as we know it, though it has clearly changed radically, is only several thousand years old and evolution has not made significant changes in humanity for over several hundred thousand years. We lived in much less civilized norms for a very long time without a significant change in the inherent capability of our biology. Taking that vantage it doesn't seem that hard to suppose that the rational faculty would exist in earlier physical forms humanity might have had, as in a fish.

Another question that may arise is that if the Baha'i Faith allows for such a view of evolution, does it allow for other "mankinds" if you will - others who are strictly equal to, the same as, humanity in the sight of God. As our spirits are not defined by our bodies do we in fact have spiritual kin, so to speak. I think there are hints to say there are in fact such kin, but they are not "here" - and I don't know if that means the planet Earth, our solar system, or some measure beyond. I know the idea has been entertained that an alien civilization could arrive on our door step - not based on any prediction or comments in the Writings of the Baha'i Faith, just as a possibility.

Some of the curiouser questions of evolution yet to be worked out, and by this I do not emediately suppose a religious answer, is how complexity vs simplicity works out (from one celled creatures to interdependent species like certain ants and certain trees) and how a system seemingly driven towards change can also create stability - certain forms haven't evolved much over hundreds of millions of years, while others seem to have changed almost beyond recognition in just a few million years.

Certain it is that biological evolution must react to physical changes - and on the very long scale some of those changes threaten the sustainability of those biologies at all - from asteroid bombardment to near-enough stellar explosions to interstellar clouds than dim the light of the sun for a period resulting in an earth that is iced over or roasting hot. And what place humanity might play in the future of all that also is something to ponder.

 

[arthra]

Some "exotheology" viws as they relate to "man":

OK ....

So you can also reference some things in Duane Troxel's essay on "exotheology" here:

http://bahai-library.com/unpubl.articles/extraterrestrials.html

Troxel summarizes our view of man and our place in the cosmos..his sample selection from the Writings:

"...[T]he reality of Divinity is without a beginning, creation is also without a beginning." (SFTW A-B 61) "[T]he coming of the Manifestations of God are not circumscribed by time." (FWU 53) "...[A]s God is creator, eternal and ancient, there were always creatures and subjects existing and provided for." (FWU 101) "...[T]he human soul has existed on the earth for prolonged times and ages, yet it is phenomenal." (SAQ 151) "...[T]he earth has not always existed,...". (SAQ 152) "...[T]he universe is not limited to this terrestrial globe." (SAQ 152) "...t cannot be said there was a time when man was not." (SAQ 196) "...t cannot be imagined that the worlds of existence, whether the stars or this earth...were without man!" (SAQ 197)

I would trust that as to biology we don't need to replicate the contents of another forum here.

Baha'is generally though allow science to be science that is we recognize there will findings that should be respected and that there should be a greater harmony between science and religion.

Saying that I'll end this post.