How can Muslims be assured that the Qur'an is the Word of God?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Affectionate, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. ~:MOK:~

    ~:MOK:~ Member

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    Hey guys, I'm new here and came across this awesome conversation, had to get in on it. That last post was too long to respond to in one post so I'll respond to this one first.

    It is important to remember that the word "We" was used similarly by Kings and Monarchs when speaking in the first person. Rarely did they ever say "I", similarly, when Allah (swt) refers to himself, he speaks in the first person, We because He is in a position of being the Almighty God. However, when someone that is not Allah (swt) refers to Allah (swt), he can not address him as "We", he must address him as "He".

    I feel bad comparing a king to Allah (swt), but I believe it conveys my point.
     
  2. Light

    Light Well-Known Member

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    Hi Mansio
    That is right. You have prove that Quran is the word of God. Why? Because you proof that the other books before Quran was corrupted and because God failed to protect them. The fact is God said that HE will protect Quran specifically and never is there a mention that HE will protect the previous books. So, for Quran to survived without corruption for 1400+ year is enough to prove that Qur'an is the Word of God.
    Again, you confirm what God has revealed in the Quran. If it can be imitated, every Muslims will fall for it. Not some, but the whole Muslims community will believe that the fabricated verse is part of the Quran. Because, nobody have even managed to convince the Muslims otherwise, it shows that this challenge is never and will never be answered. Insya Allah.
    There are many references in history to Abu Lahab. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Lahab for one of the references. Abu Lahab died 10 years (approx) after the revealation of this verses. This is one of the falsification test that people can take heed to ascertain that Quran is the Word of God. For a book to be a word of God, there must never be a contradiction nor flaw. Quran have over and over again proves this. In the case of Abu Lahab, after hearing such verses and knowing that Muhammad (pbuh) is Al-Amin (the trustworthy) and have never tell a lie in his whole life, should have fear sets into his heart that he would immediately repent and accept Islam. Alternatively, after hearing this verse, in order to mock Muhammad (pbuh) and Quran, all he has to do is to proclaimed he is a Muslim. Not to embrace it 100%, but just by his own word that I am a Muslims. If he do that, it will invalidate this Sura and thus, invalidate Quran as the Word of God. Such a simple test and yet again, Quran prove that it is a Word of God because this sura stands from its revelation until today!

    One might feel that some of the text is inaccurate (eg. in relation to modern science) based on our current knowledge. I iterate, our current knowledge. This does not mean that Quran is inaccurate, it is only that the current knowledge has not reach to the level that will conform or reject the Quranic verses.

    There are many verses in the Quran that seems to be either unexplained or completely absurd based on the current scientific knowledge. I believe you have mentioned some in our previous discussion. We can argue at great length about this, but I am confident, very confident that overtime, in our lifetime or later that Quran will proof that science is wrong and Quran is correct as more and more knowledge is dscovered. Also, there are many scientific discoveries that confirms Quran. This too, confirm that Quran is the Word of God because Muhammad (pbuh) not only is he illiterate, but the sciences that Quran mentioned in some of the verses is totally beyond the understanding during the prophet's (pbuh) time.

    How do we explain that?

    peace...
     
  3. mansio

    mansio Well-Known Member

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    Light

    You are certainly right when you say that Allah did not write in his Quran that he would protect former scriptures from corruption. But he could have done it out of respect for his own Word.

    Your proof that the Quran remained unchanged for 1400 years is not a proof of a divine origin. Why should a book that has not changed for 1400 years be of divine origin ?
    Remember that no one can produce the original documents of the Quran, the ones that were written down right after their revelation from the Angel Jibril.
    And it cannot be proven too that the memorized chapters of the Quran correspond to the Angel's revelations or to the printed edition of the Quran.

    As far as I know, the challenge of imitating the Quran does not ask for Muslims falling for it. It asks for a short imitation, which must not be too difficult to achieve for someone with a perfect command of Classical Arabic and a good literary ability.

    Most of what we know about the Quran comes from oral traditions that were put to writing a long time after the facts they are supposed to transmit. So I am not really interested in discussing oral traditions. I prefer to have proofs from the Quran and not from stories about the Quran.
     
  4. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    You agree then the first half of the verse is NOT written by any man. You agree the second half of the verse is NOT Allah (swt) referring to himself as He. So then what is your explanation? Half and half? Khalifa slaughtered the translation on the 2nd half but the other 3 translations have it right:

    وَكَذَلِكَ أَنزَلْنَاهُ آيَاتٍ بَيِّنَاتٍ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَن يُرِيدُ



    To my knowledge, no man would dare to say 'we' created man, or 'we' created the heaven and earth, or 'we' sent down signs. To my knowledge, no prophet has said 'we' to refer to himself and Allah (swt). To my knowledge, never has Allah (swt) refer to himself as 'WE' except as claimed in the Qur'an. I had said 'HE' is 2nd person in mistake... 'you' is 2nd, 'he/she' 3rd person.

    Light, it is false to say that stating the Shahada prevents the fate of Surat 111. You are essentially telling people they are saved if they simply say a line of words... I'm sorry but the Qur'an says otherwise.
     
  5. Zaakir

    Zaakir part of the ummah

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    in the holy Quran where Allah s.w.t uses the word 'we' He is using in the sense like the royal we. Allah s.w.t is not male, nor female. the reason the word He is used is out of a mark of respect and from arabic language and titles that could be depicted to Him. Allah s.w.t is above sex, creation and everything, so why not refer to Himself as we?i dont know if any of you are muslims here or what your views are..but the Quran is the pure word of Allah s.w.t and everybodyi know who follows islam knows this is true, becasue it is...Allah s.w.t sent the Quran down to the prophet s.a.w, confirming the laws which came before it, and new ones...as for the old scriptures, Allah s.w.t gave these as a test for us, which e failed, which is the raeson for so many different faiths, when we did this, and when times were low, Allah s.w.t sent the message to Muhammad s.a.w....we know that Allah s.w.t would not lie.He said He will protect the Quran...so i dont doubt that for 1 second...also Allah s.w.t has said in the Quran that if a verse can be written similar then bring it forth......hasnt been able to happen....so Allah's s.w.t word is true, and as muslims shouldnt we all beleive this?
     
  6. mansio

    mansio Well-Known Member

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    Zaakir

    It is not written in the Quran to try to imitate a verse but at least a chapter.

    As some chapters are very short, the length of the imitation is not a problem.

    The problem is that Muslims cannot agree on the terms of the challenge. The Quran is very vague about those terms.

    Various imitations have already been made but Muslims always find another excuse for dismissing them.
     
  7. Zaakir

    Zaakir part of the ummah

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    so...your saying it can be done?
     
  8. aburaees

    aburaees Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he's saying it can be done... he's saying that it has been ATTEMPTED, but with every attempt there are different excuses given for why the attempt has failed.

    In fact, the Qur'an does not give the terms of the challenge, but scholars have given their OPINIONS on what the terms should be. The trouble with these opinions is that they aren't supported by Ayats or Hadiths.

    A recent attempt was titled "Al Furqan Al Haqq", written by a Christian.
    http://www.islam-exposed.org/

    .
     
  9. mansio

    mansio Well-Known Member

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    You are right Aburaees. The attempts have been done several times.

    For the Quran the terms of the challenge are two lines long and for some Muslim scholars they take a whole page.

    So before such a challenge can be taken up the two sides must settle for a common list of literary requirements.
     
  10. Light

    Light Well-Known Member

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    The jest of the challenge is, someone is yet to produce something that is similar to Quran. Yes there may be attempts, but have it been successful, I doubt it.

    I am not an Arabic scholars and do not know the proper arabic grammar, however, I am truly confident that it will never be possible. I can't describe it because I do not have the knowledge.

    On the other points, how then can the Quran describe many scientific facts that are only discovered recently in a book that is 1400+ years old?
     
  11. Zaakir

    Zaakir part of the ummah

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    exactly!scienific miracles!
     
  12. mansio

    mansio Well-Known Member

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    Light

    Some suras are so simplistic that I find it unbelievable not to be able to imitate them. As I told you the only requirement is that Muslims give the exact conditions of the challenge before any attempt is being made.

    As of the "scientific miracles of the Quran" they have been debunked umpteenth times.
    (I have even noticed that one of the most popular supporter of those "miracles", the so-called Harun Yahya, is being more and more criticized in Islamic forums).
     
  13. Zaakir

    Zaakir part of the ummah

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    in arabic though the simple surahs sounds amazing, and no-one can find anything alkie to it, because tis Allah s.w.t's word, how can you say you think it should be able to be done?
    Harun Yahya has done amazing work. if ever you watch miracl;es of the Quiran, there is evident statements in the quran...ie...teels us sex of babay determined by the man....tells us about the mixing of water, mountains, foetuses etc
     
  14. mansio

    mansio Well-Known Member

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    Zaakir

    God is the best writer. So if he would write something that is amazing in Arabic, it would also be amazing in translation. He must have known that the Quran would be read mostly by non-Arabic speaking people.

    Could you give precise examples of things you find "amazing" in the Quran?

    I don't understand why it should be someone like Adnan Oktar (Harun Yahya's actual name) that discovers miracles in the Quran.
    The extraordinary scientific advancement that was achieved by Muslims in the Middle-Ages, came from Indian and Greek science and from the Muslim scholars' own brains, not from the Quran.
     
  15. Zaakir

    Zaakir part of the ummah

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    if you study the Quran you see these scientific facts pointed out...theyre just in part of a verse, when Allah refers to things He has done to us..i dont know how you can argue
    http://www.islam-guide.com/
    also the translation of the Quran if im honest makes tears come into my eyes and makes me get goose pimples...as it is amazing.there is not one bit i can look at and point out to you...the whole Quran is amazing.i gather youre not muslim?so you therefore wouldnt understand.i was jsut saying hearing it recited in salah sounds more emotional and does sound nicer.
    as fot harun yahya....why should it be him?...why should it b me who is writing this to you now?he jus happend to write books. there are many many books about islam, the Quran and science, harun yahya chooses to call his miracles of the Quran. inventions and advancements came from peopel yes...i went to see the muslim science exhibition in manchester the other day...people craeted them, not the Quran...but the Quran tells us of things that exist as a result of Allah if you get me...look at that website.

    also you said the Quran would be read by most non arab speakers...yes...but Allah s.w.t tells us He gave it in this language so it would be easy...so if Allah says so..also all muslims should be able in my oppinion, to be able to read and understand arabic...all the muslims i know can read, as i hears a scholar say once...you owuldnt go into an exam not understand french for example...why would you stand before Allah not understanding Arabic, this is the biggest test of all...so the Quran is more widely read in arabic, than any other language, as this is its original, and therefore we should all learn it in arabic.
     
  16. mansio

    mansio Well-Known Member

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    Zaakir

    I'm reading the Quran and I find several scientific facts mentioned in it.
    Most of them are either wrong or can be observed by anyone without God's help. Those who are wrong are reflecting scientific ideas as people of the 7th century knew them.
    I'll let you give one or two examples of what you consider a scientific miracle in the Quran.

    As of the literary style of the Quran nothing in it gave me the impression that it could not have been written by men.
     
  17. Zaakir

    Zaakir part of the ummah

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    1400 years ago, a man lived in the desert, how did he know taht everything was made from water, how did he know iron came from the sky, taht foetuses lookd the way they did, taht there were 7 layers in the atmosphere, that there was a layer in the upper atmosphere taht protects us from harmful uv rays, a partition between water of the see, the nature of the universe, the formation of stars and satellites...i dont think 1400 years ago most of this would be known, if you read the Quran in english the ofcourse non of this will really make sense to you, as some of the key words in arabic, have 1,2 or maybe 3 different interpretations on english language...if you cant open your mind and look at the website i gave you with a clear head, then just dont bother, if thats what you think, thats what you think, just try and be open minded and unblock the ignorance, i was like taht at one time, but when i looked hard into islam i could see clearly.

    ps, the quran in english as i read it is beutiful, and i dont think any one can capture its meaning. english however is not the best language for the Quran, the best language is arabic, when you hear it recited, you cannot say what you did...as a non muslim though..i dont know...but as a muslim i find it amazing, even though i dont understand arabic.i find it so much more personal and touching than i ever found the bible
     
  18. mansio

    mansio Well-Known Member

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    Zaakir

    First of all Muhammad did not live in the desert but was a businessman who lived in the town of Mecca and ran an import-export firm with his first wife. Eventually he became a religious leader and a statesman.

    Secondly there is no proof that the Quran came only from or through the Prophet. It may be derived from Jewish or Hanif literature and have several human authors, not just one. Several people know more than only one person.

    I asked you only one or two miracles at a time. So please give the verse references that we can discuss them.

    Sorry for your link, but we are on a discussion forum where people talk man to man, not man to link.
     
  19. Zaakir

    Zaakir part of the ummah

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    Muhammad s.a.w didn’t live in the desert, ok…but he lived in makkah, and then medina, im sure you’re aware these places are not like my country, or even yours, they are very dry, sandy and hot. As you said Muhammad s.a.w was an importer/exporter, he therefore travelled a lot around surrounding villages within the Arab states, where also, its very hot, dry etc, so a man saying that everything is made up of water seems pretty far fetched to me. Anyway the angel Jibrael gave Muhammad s.a.w these words, in which he recited and told people, they were written down on animal skins, bones etc. then many years later they were written in a book, so more than one person would probably have written it down, but that would be the case today…many many Muslims know the Quran off by heart, and if every copy was destroyed, within a couple of hours it could be re-written, but im sure not only one person would do this. We know the prophet s.a.w did not know of any other religions in detail, he couldn’t read or write, so how could he have made it up. You obviously know a bit about Muhammad s.a.w, so im sure you have read he was well known as being trustworthy and faithful…..this for me is more than enough proof that he would never have lied, and the love I have for him, I know that he was true…what makes him less trustworthy than the authors of the new testament, some of them who didn’t even meet Jesus at all. In the Quran, I could never find any contradictions, before I was Muslim I tried to shoot the religion down but couldn’t, the more I tried the more I found problems with my old faith…how could god have a son…where is the evidence of this for Christians, they just believe Jesus said it right. You don’t seem to be arguing with them about this. Maybe if you read the bible, you will see more problems with that than you see with the Quran. You started this topic, so you can give me references and ask me about them, but remember I am very very limited in my knowledge at the moment, but when I have been Muslim longer, hopefully I will have a much greater knowledge.

    The Quran openly declares:
    You (O Muhammad) was not a reader of any Scripture before it, nor did you write (such a Scripture) with your right hand, for then those who follow falsehood might (have a right) to doubt it. (al-Ankabut, 29.48)

    If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call your witnesses, supporters, who are apart from God, if you are truthful. (al-Baqara, 2.23)
    Because I believe the Quran is the word of god, I believe in all that it says, it tells me the above, so I believe it. The Quran has remained the same since it was first brought to Muhammad s.a.w surely that would be enough evidence. If you ever go to turkey I think it is, they have the oldest Quran, which is exactly the same as mine. Try finding this in any other religion.
    The revelation of the Quran lasted 23 years. It is inconceivable that any book written by a mortal being in 23 years, one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a happy life, does not have any contradictory points. Whereas, the Quran openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:
    Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction and incongruity. (al-Nisa’, 4.82)
    If Prophet Muhammad had written the Qur’an by himself, he should never have mentioned some incidents concerning him.
    However slight, there are some admonitions for the Prophet in the Qur’an.
    No one, especially if that one claims Prophethood, mentions a grave slander against his wife in the book he writes by himself. Whereas, the Qur’an gives an important place to the slander hypocrites uttered against ‘A’isha, the Prophet’s wife.
    Although other Prophets like Moses and Jesus are mentioned many times in the Quran despite the Jews’ and Christians’ denial of Muhammad, we come across the name Muhammad only four times. Muhammad was offered riches, power and money, anything he wanted, but he didn’t take it, if someone made up the Quran, and hence this religion, wouldn’t they have done it for some reason?
    It doesn’t make sense to think that the Quran was written by a group of people as you mean, why do we not know them? Putting aside the Quran though, Islam, as I am concerned, is the most appreciative faith to Allah s.w.t, we have to sacrifice a lot for Him and worship Him quite a lot, out prayer is a complete change on Christianity, whereas in church, you sit down, listen etc, we have to kneel and prostrate before our Lord! Islam is the way religion is meant to be, modest, humble, loving, praising etc, and of course we have only one god, which is why I could be Christian any longer, and don’t know how my family are.
     
  20. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    god thru many prophets spoke of the son and gave prophecies concerning his first coming and what to look for, jesus fulfilled these prophecies. john the baptist proclaimed the coming of the lord to mulititudes. an angel told mary and joseph that her son would be of the holy spirit. multitude of angels and wisemen proclaimed the son and worshipped him and shephards saw and spread the good news. jesus christs baptism was proclaimed by god himself and the holy spirit as his beloved son to all who were there. the crucifixion of christ was witnessed by many and he died where he was proclaimed by god as his begotten son, and the sky went dark and the earth shook, and many others also did change their hearts and realize he is the son of god. he rose again proclaimed by angels and witnessed by many that he was resurrected. he was witnessed again as he was glorified back to heaven to the father. all written down in the holy bible and translated to every language to fulfill the prophecy that the gospel would be preached to the entire world. god promised sending the son and jesus promised the sending of the holy spirit, and that work is done thru the church today. it is evident in all the christian evangelism all over the world that make orphanages, churches, hospitals, schools, for people of all races so they may see gods love. it is out of that great love of god and his son that we love others, and we listen to him and obey him out of love all for the glory of god.

    who are the witnesses and prophets for mohammed proclaiming him and his claims of prophethood and alleged visitation of an angel, who decided to go against all that has already been written down and proclaimed by god, to say such things?
     

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