Did Lazerus' soul rise when he died?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by tommy, Nov 18, 2005.

  1. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i think when it talks about sleeping, it just means rest & peace from the flesh since the spirit does not die.
    i think the point jesus was trying to make here is that we do not die & the spirit goes on & was one of his final efforts to get them to believe.:)
     
  2. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi Bandit: Great point, I do agree that sleep would be rest and peace. My point in this thread is that in my opinion the soul doesn't rise somewhere else to a spiritual being looking down upon us here, but is in the state of sleep and rest as you have state until the resurrection. It's always good to here from you.

    Were getting our first snow up here in Reno today. I wish I had a real fireplace:p Take care, your brother, tommy
     
  3. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    I have seen Reno buried in snow & i am talking 20 foot mounds of snow on both sides of freeway 80.:)

    but what purpose would the spirit serve to stay with the dead body? i suppose it could have still been right with Lazarus, there seeing that Jesus knew in advance he was going to raise Lazarus. i dont think Lazarus knew anything while he was sleeping. i think there is one place there where Martha was not aware of what Jesus was going to do, because she mentioned Lazarus being resurrected at the last resurrection.

    unless you are saying that all spirits stay with the body as they decompose until they are resurrected?
    i guess i just dont see where it really matters where the spirit goes after the body dies. now, nothing can keep a spirit buried in dirt or inside of a tomb unless the power of God says so, otherwise i would think the spirit goes back to God somewhere in spirit world & is in some kind of sleep until the last resurrection. unless some people are resurrected immediatley into a spiritual body. but i would have to agree for the most part, the spirit of a man does not go floating around, looking down at other people, though we often think of it that way when we think of friends & family. BUT- not saying that is not a possiblity for some because i dont really know for sure.
    OTH, Lazarus was resurrected back into a mortal body & not an immortal body...& i actually view that as a 'type' of reincarnation & see a parallel there with the resurrection of Jesus, except i think Jesus was given (changed) into immortalitiy & he does look down upon us & can be everywhere at all times.

    interesting that is for sure.:)
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Naw, wouldn't work, since some of us never sleep in peace. Some of us dream too much, and some of us don't sleep for eight hours a night (we don't need it). Plus, I'm not into "resting" with a stinking body that serves no further purpose. No, the spirit does not stay with the decomposing body, nor in the "grave" of the mortal shell. If that were the case, 'Davy Jones' has a lot of company down in the deep blue sea.

    To state that Paul is more perfect, or higher than any man, smacks of heiarchy. And Christs apalled such thought. To say Paul is one of the 144,000 and we are not is frankly, grounds for rebellion against a God that promised all who turned to Him, being with the Lord (and not in 1000 years).

    There is no caste system in Christianity...If there is, then I want no damn part of it. I can't make myself any clearer.

    v/r

    Q
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    That doesn't speak to the question of how the soul decided to jump back up when Jesus called him.... except if 'that' was Jesus's second coming for Lazurus...

    Interstingly enough this weekend I was reading Ramtha's White Book, he is discussed his dispair at all the souls laying in graves sleeping, and all the other souls attempting to wake them so they can continue in life everlasting...few get up, most continue to wait...ignoring those attempting to wake them for their belief system which told them they will sleep until Jesus comes is the same system that told them that the devil would be tempting them out of the sleep...
     
  6. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Christ weeped not for the death of His friend, but because He had to pull him back from the place he was in, to prove a point. Lazuraus did not come back happy, remember, he came back dazed, confused, and angry (I opine).

    Everything was screwed up. Because man is such a moron, when it comes to trusting God. Jesus had to make an example, just to make us understand His purpose and power. Jesus did not bring Lazarous back from the dead for his sisters' sakes, He did it for ours.

    v/r

    Q
     
  7. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    yep:) that is exactly why Jesus raised him from the dead & why he wept.
     
  8. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Thanks again for your thoughts. I do believe that we experience a "recreation" of one's earthly self at the peak of our being when our bodies were at their most perfect state. As opposed to a recarnation into another body a recreation would restore our own body, without the imperfections, as God originally intended for us. That would mean sickness, deformation, and old age would be gone. Kind of like how a beautiful Redwood tree that was designed to grow forever would be.

    As I started forming my response, you answered it in yours. The spirit soul needs no body to rest in. Those who died in planes on 9/11 for example may appear walking out of the ocean for example. The one big mystery I do not know if will we have a memory. I am not sure. I have heard we will live with our loved ones. But then what happens if one of our loved ones don't come into the truth? Can we be hurt in this new perfect system (one with no Satan influences that currectly nag us, thanks Adam:) ). Would it make sense that our memory dies with the fleshly brain? Perhaps not, here's why. Lazarus came back with his memory, pretty amazing forshadowing of things to come. Elijah raised the little girl through God, she was restored too and had her memory.

    Where does the spirit go? I believe in what we read in the Bible about Sheol, the resting place of the soul awaiting the resurrection. I like what you put up this morning about the dead are sleeping peacefully in rest which is comforting to those who have gone before us. I don't believe the Grand Creator torments souls in a fiery hell either.

    Both the righteousness and the unrighteous will be resurrected. The unrighteous will have the ability in changing their ways and learning the two main issues that satan brought us through Adam. That God is the soviergn Almighty Creator who's name shall be sanctified and that man will be loyal to Him, even if there is nothing to gain other then praising our grand creator. This is what think about salvation and that God's Son Jesus is the only way we can get to the Father (not the Saints or the pope). Peace, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2005
  9. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Ive always believed that the story of the Lazarus that went to Abrahams bosom was the Lazarus that Christ resurrected. I do not believe that the gates of Heaven were opened until Christ died for the sins of the world, but I do believe that the departed did go somewhere whether it was a place of comfort like Abrahams bosom or a place of torment which was Hades.
     
  10. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi Quahom (Do you mind if I call you Joshua?)

    Here's what I researched about after Lazurus came back. John 12: 1-2 "Accordingly Jesus, six days before the passover, arrived at Bethany where Lazuras was whom Jesus raised from the dead". "Therefore they spread an evening meal for him there, and Martha was ministering, but Lazarus was one of those reclining at the table with him".

    It says Lazarus was "reclining" with Jesus. This actually sounds like he's kicking back and doesn't sound like he was mad at Jesus for bringing him back or angry. Remember Lazarus was a beggar and in these late verses he's kicking back reclining with Jesus over a dinner. Where does the angry stuff come from? I picture him with a BIG smile on his face looking at his loved ones and the smell of death has gone from him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2005
  11. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    If you hold to the authority of scripture tommy then you must believe Jesus raised Himself, Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19.

    He says He will raise Himself.

    Are you are making a mistake in believing greater means better? Greater does not mean better but God the Father was in Heaven and God the Son was on earth and limited in His ability as a Man. He was never inferior. For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form... Col 2:9. HEB 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    And Samuel being called back after he had died?
    And `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
    Need answers please.

    1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

    We are all Priests and all have priestly duties to perform.

    john.
     
  12. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    yes. this exactly how i picture it also. since there will be no more age or aging, i picture us all at the most perfect state of how we knew others in our mortal life and that is really neat to me:) . (with no wrinkles)

    i think we will remember also, but only the good things because there will be no more death or sickness or sorrow & i think we will have perfect understanding of our purpose. i dont know how, but i still believe it.
    what i like the most is God will be our eternal rest & we will be Gods eternal rest and that means resting forever in peace & love that no man or satan can ever take from us!
    & that is forever and forever. when i think of forever and forever, i find rest in that.

    i think one day the spirit will be free to go anywhere without the weight we feel now. while those who sleep in Christ are alive in Christ, those who are dead in Christ are not sleeping in Christ so how could there be rest for them? i think both the righteous & unrighteous are both resurrected also but what will be happening there is a judgment while the righteous have already been judged in this life. i dont think God will allow the unrighteous to torment the righteous any more & while i dont see a literal fire like old time preachers say, i see more of destruction as in ZAP & be gone forever & forever, (second death) the same way those who love God & keep His commandments will live forever & forever with the Creator & with Jesus and all the saints of the ages. that is one promise i dont want to miss out on.

    since i dont know for sure how all that transpires i am trying to keep my ducks in a row on this side:) so when the time comes, i can fly with all the other ducks in eternal rest & Jesus is the head (leader) duck.
    Quack Quack...reminds me of the mighty ducks in hockey & how they went from nothing to something big, because they had a coach who cared & never gave up.

    so where does the spirit go? i think it simply flies back to God who gave it in the beginning.

    Peace & love in Christ.

    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7.
     
  13. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi John:

    I didn't say that God is better than Jesus, they are in unity together. There is the Father, the Almighty One and Jesus Christ, the "Son" of God. The reason Jesus says his Father is "greater" (not better) is because he is the Grand Creator of everything, the Alpha and the Omega.

    God's only begotten's Son is Jesus. He is called our co-creator because Jehovah God created his Son as the "first born" of all creation. Jesus is from Heaven and Godlike. But remember they are seperate and distinct, something most won't take arguement with".

    Even though Jesus performed all of his miracles including raising up his own Temple from death, he was empowered by God his "Father" to do so. If he didn't need this blessing from God them his Baptism at the age of 29 would not serve a purpose. Wasn't God's voice who appear spoken from the skies saying "This is my Son, with him I am pleased"?

    As far as the God of the dead but the living goes, we are living. We breathe. We hear of the New Heaven and New Earth. Once resurrected we come from the dead to the living, but have to pay the price first of death. We inherited sin and only through death do we pay that price. When we return from the resurrection we will be in the living again which will be the "new earth" (no satan here).

    The New Heaven (no satan there is why it is new) will be Jesus' one goverment and yes the 144,000 will take rulership. We know that many of the 144,000 are early Christians mostly. I cannot remember the scripture but we are given 11 tribes of 12,000 with their family names and one tribe of 24,000 (i.e. Levy ???). Thats who will rule with Jesus and also known as Heaven.

    Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of those kings the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin and the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite".

    Matthew 6:10 "Let your kingdom come, let your will take place as in heaven, also upon earth". Notice that it says here your kingdom come and will take place in heaven and also upon the earth (New Heaven and New Earth). The ruling class 144,000 in heaven and the rest of those who repented on earth.

    Revelation 21:3 "...Look, the tent of God is with mankind.And he will reside with them and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them". Notice how this says the tent (home) of God is with mankind and it does not say mankind is with God. It also saysGod will reside with them (here on Earth in my opinion) as opossed to mankind will reside with God in heaven. Peace, tommy
     
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.



    But I thought you were saying that a person who is dead is asleep, in a non-state. If that is so then how does one do anything when one is not?

    Either Jesus was conscious after He died on the cross or He wasn't. I was under the impression that you were saying that death meant extinction. A state of non-being. My question was "How did Jesus rise Himself if death is a cessation of consciousness?" Now I think you are saying that Jesus was conscious after death. Put me right please. Thanks.

    john.
     
  15. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi John:

    Non-state of existance would be the final death, like what Adam had. I am not saying that a soul in Sheol awaiting the resurrection is non-existant. They are simply resting at peace for the resurrection to be living.

    The final death would be a soul like Adam who would he in hell or hades. To clarify Adam would be in a state of nothing, dust, non-existant, no chance of returning, in Sheol a soul awaits the resurrection in "sleep", like Lazarus was in my opinion Jesus was in Sheol for three days and by God's power he was raised. The same as Jesus performed miracles through the power he received from God when be was baptised. I hope this clears some confusion, but if not I'll check back a bit later if my "opinion" might not make sense. tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2005
  16. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Hello Tommy,

    I must point out that the two Lazarus' are not the same man. True one was a beggar (in the parable of he and the rich man), but the other was the brother of Martha and Mary of Bethania (Bethany), the three of which were close friends with Jesus.

    The first Lazarus is only spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16: 19-31, and is believed to be a parable that teaches the reward for Lazarus was not due to his poverty in life, but rather his virtuous acceptance of poverty, wherein the rich man was not condemned because he was wealthy, but rather because of his vicious neglect of the opportunities given him by his wealth.

    The second Lazarus is also called St. Lazarus of Bethania (Bethany), and allegedly went on to become a Minister for Christ and was persecuted and beheaded under Emperor Dominitian's reign (after Nero's death), in the latter half of the first century. However there is opinion based on the description of the "disciple whom Jesus loved", that Lazarus never died a second time, as well as speculation that the actual author of the Gospel of John is in fact Lazarus. It is also an opinion that Lazarus was the first disciple to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. For he is the one who raced to the tomb but stopped short of entering it when he saw the wrapped linen. Wherein Peter, ran into the tomb and still didn't believe.

    My comment about the anger part is speculation based on current stories of near death experiences. In many cases the one who is brought back from death, are angry that they were brought back, mostly because they were pulled or sent back from an indescribably beautiful place.

    my thoughts.

    v/r

    Q (Josh) anything but late for supper :D
     
  17. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi Q (Josh)

    Thanks for the clarity of the 2nd Lazarus from Luke 16:20. It makes it a bit confusing when we get more than one Lazarus, Mary and Martha, who is who?

    I think Martha would have been pretty happy to see her brother. Remember she was sort of upset that Jesus wasn't there and felt if he was then her brother would not have died. I still picture this group of happy people with big harty laughs when Lazarus came walking out still dressed in his death wrappings.

    John 11 outlines the events of Lazarus. It does say in verse 12 "I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep". Notice it doesn't say anything about Lazarus coming back from anywhere. 14 Jesus says "...Lazarus has died". 23 Jesus says to Martha "...your brother will rise" (seems like this is a positive thing happening here to Lazarus and Martha). 25 "...He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life". This life was on Earth and not in a spiritual sense. Jesus performed many signs. Is this a sign that the resurrection is to an earthly life? What is the resurrection? Why would our resurrection be any different than the handful that we read about in the Bible that was resurrected to earth?

    Just my thoughts. tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2005
  18. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Hi Q :)

    For the sake of discussion I would like to address your response to Tommy on the two Lazarus's in the NT.

    These are my thoughts on why the two could be the same.. its just my opinion which is formed on reasoning through the word and its something I've pondered often.

    Lazarus of the parable was a beggar. Lazarus this brother of Martha and Mary was only mentioned when the two sisters approached Jesus about their brother being sick.

    It is possible for a beggar to have 2 sisters. It is possible that Jesus loved Lazarus.. yes? Jesus loved the lowly in life.. We cannot just assume that the two could be different just because the one in the parable was met on hard times.

    We also know that the Lazarus of the parable.. .was just that.. in a parable which is a story that can hold very very deep messages. It could be possible that Lazarus in the parable was a beggar and the Lazarus (brother to Martha and Mary) had similarities because the word beggar has multiple meanings.

    Beggar = ptwcovß
    1. reduced to beggary, begging, asking alms
    2. destitute of wealth, influence, position, honour
      1. lowly, afflicted, destitute of the Christian virtues and eternal riches
      2. helpless, powerless to accomplish an end
      3. poor, needy
    3. lacking in anything
      1. as respects their spirit
        1. destitute of wealth of learning and intellectual culture which the schools afford (men of this class most readily give themselves up to Christ's teaching and proved them selves fitted to lay hold of the heavenly treasure)
    His name alone causes me to think.. Its certainly not a common name and its interesting to me that Jesus would create a parable using the exact name of someone whom He knew and performed such a massive scale miracle on whose name would be in history linked to such a miracle of that magnitude..



    Its also interesting to me that the brother Lazarus died whom Jesus loved.. and the parable was of a dead man who loved Jesus to be in Abrahams bosom. I think there more similarities then differences.. That is why I personally believe they are the same person.

    Im curious to if you ever thought of it in this context before? I respect anything you might add to this after you think about it after Ive laid my reasoning before you.

    Its one of the many things I want to ask Jesus when I meet Him face to face. I also do not know if this is the meat that I was fed with in my journey through the word.. it feels like it though. :)

    FS
     
  19. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i have always seen it as the same Lazarus also, Faithful. :)
    to me, the ironic part about the parable & the actual rasing of Lazarus is Jesus is declaring in the parable that people still will not believe even if Lazarus came back & went to tell the rich mans family, not to come to hell. & sure enough, many still did not believe even after he was raised from the dead & they wanted to kill both Jesus Lazarus for the evidence.

    i also think it was the same Lazaus because it is the only parable that Jesus used real names, which leads me to believe, they knew who Abraham was & they all knew who Lazarus was. so what purpose would it serve to use one person that everyone knew & not use the other person (Laz) which everyone knew.?
    I see a connection & i am pretty sure that in the order of events, the parable was told prior to the resurrection of Lazarus. In John, it was right after the rasing of Lazarus that Jesus makes his final entrance into Jeruselum & it goes into the Last Supper, where jesus spends his time with the disciples & not the crowds.
    but what i see is a direct parallel on the unbelief issue of men & the lack of persuasion in both the parable & the actual rasing, of Lazarus.
    hope that makes some kind of sense.:)

    & i would like to hear as well, why some would think it is not the same Lazarus.
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Everyone.

    First, the story of the richman and Lazarus is not a parable but the record of an actual historical event.

    I have never made any connection between Laz and Laz before. People with the same name often appear in scripture.
    For this to work Luke 16:19-31 must have been told after John 11:1-12:18..

    In the four days it took for Jesus to arrive at the tomb of Lazarus but not before.


    Hello tommy.

    Right! Soul sleep. Cool. The question remains. In this condition how was Jesus able to raise Himself?

    john.
     

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