Did Lazerus' soul rise when he died?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by tommy, Nov 18, 2005.

  1. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    Hi John:)

    i see it as a parable about something literal because he used real literal people, but i think the parable pertains to everyone & that we dont want to be seperated from the love of God, not just Abraham, Laz & the rich man... then again I take most of the bible literal.

    that is pretty much what i am saying but i dont see where it is necessary that it had to be only within that 4 day period, but not saying that is not a possibility. it could have been prior to the death of Lazarus & still be the same Laz. after rasing Lazarus, Jesus was just about finished with his ministry & ready to lay down his own life for us, which leads me to believe the parable came before the actual raising of Laz.

    who do you think the rich man is? & who do you think the father is that the rich man is talking to?
    :)
     
  2. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Sorry John it took a bit to respond here, work took over.

    This is a way easy answer, God, Jehovah God the distinct seperate Father of the Son of God, Jesus Christ created the power for Christ to be resurrected. So in other words Christ had the power, like all the miracles he performed, to perform the miracle of his resurrection.

    God created the universe and empowered His son to be the "co-creator" of us. But all the power of creation belongs to the Father and that is why Jesus said in John that his father is "greater" than him, not "better" like we discussedd earlier. God created his only "begotton" son as the "first born" of all creation. Jesus has been assigned the task of ruling Heaven, by his Father, who empowered Jesus' resurrection. I hope might this helps clarify my "opinion" of what I think are truths based upon The Bible. Peace, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2005
  3. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i am just curious John, are you saying that Jesus could raise himself without the the power of the Father? i ask because you are hammering it like building a wood deck.:)

    in another place we are told God raised up Jesus from the dead.
    Jesus not only said the father is greater, he also mentioned that he could do nothing of himself...(paraphrased)
    from what i can see, you can't separate the father & the son in eternity & seeing that God gave Jesus all authority & power, i dont see where it was difficult for Jesus to raise himself, no more difficult than when he raised up Lazarus.
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    The parable of Lazarus and the rising of the other Lazarus...are the two the same person? Jesus spoke the parable of Lazarus, before the death of the other Lazarus. Remember the raising of Lazarus from the dead was the crosspoint wherein the decided finally to have Jesus killed. Why? Because in seeing Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, caused many Jews to believe, and they said as much as their reasoning for killing Him.

    Second, the NT continuously refers to the "disciple whom Jesus loved" and the "other disciple whom Jesus loved" after first identifying Lazarus as "the disciple whom Jesus loved". Peter even turned to Jesus at one point during their supper and asked Him "What of your other disciple..." Jesus told Peter the other disciple would not see death, and if Jesus had him tarry on at his will, what was it to Peter?

    Third, there were two whom Mary ran up to and declared that Jesus was no longer in the tomb. Peter was one, and the other was described as the disciple (other) whom Jesus loved. Both ran to the tomb but the other arrived before Peter, yet he stopped at the entrance when he saw the bundled linen on the ground...and he believed right then that Jesus rose from the dead. Peter on the other hand ran into the tomb and searched but did not yet believe.

    Why would the other disciple believe simply at seeing the bundled burial wrap? Because he once wore the same burial wrap and he too was loosed from those wrappings, not too long before...

    Peter on the other hand had never tasted death, hence the power of the symbolism would be lost on him.

    Finally, the Mary who ran to Peter and the other disciple (whom Jesus loved), was Lazarus' sister.

    We pretty much understand the Gospel of John was not written by John, but by another. One with first hand knowledge and a sense of intimacy with Jesus. Lazarus' name is never mentioned again, however the "other disciple whom Jesus loved" is mentioned over and over again, by the author of John.

    A conclusion is logically, that Lazarus is the author of the Gospel of John.

    Let is consider what happened to Lazarus after being raised from the dead.

    a. He thanked Jesus and went on his merry way

    b. He continued on in the trade of his career (what ever that was)

    c. He was profoundly affected and changed by the miraculous events taking place in his life, because of Jesus.

    I doubt a man who had been raised from the dead, and because of this became an instant celebrity, plus was an instrument in getting Jews to believe in Jesus, hence setting the trigger for Jesus' own death, would remain a beggar, if he ever was one.

    In any event it would be impossible for Lazarus to be the beggar in the parable told by Jesus, since he wasn't dead when the parable was told.

    my thoughts.

    v/r

    Q
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    There's no rush man.

    While He was asleep? He performed the miracle of waking up when He was asleep you say?

    John 5:19 ...whatever the Father does the Son also does.
    Why?
    that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:23.

    Just as you honour God the Father so one should honour Christ. Why? For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form... Col 2:9. He is God.

    So I'm still stuck. You say that Adam is annihilated, he doesn't exist anymore but those lovers of God are asleep in the grave. How can a sleeper do anything?


    john.
     
  6. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Bandit.

    Except the story of Lazarus and the richman? I shall take it that when you say you 'take most of the bible literal' that when you read a thing that thing says what it means and means what it says? That's the way I read the bible.

    So you do not take the story of the richman and Lazarus literally? Since Lazarus is named then Lazarus is meant. It would take some gymnastics to cause 'Lazarus' to become all those who love God and the 'richman' all those that are God haters no? This is a personal story of two men that came into contact with each other while alive is it not?

    As I said it could not have been prior to the death of Lazarus, Martha's brother, as Jesus says, "The time came when the beggar died..." LK 16:22. If Martha's brother was yet to die then Jesus would not have said he had died. Luke is talking in past tense not future tense.

    The story could have been told from the moment Lazarus died onwards but not before Lazarus died or language fails.

    john.
     
  7. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi John: Let me use a few comparisons to illustrate my point. When Moses raised his cane and performed miracles, inflicting some of the ten plagues against the Egyptians, did Moses perform those miracle directly? No, he was empowered by the Almighty One to carry on His purpose.

    I by no means would discount the Divinity of Jesus Christ. The point here is who is God? Remember Jesus is the "first born" of all creation and is a Son and has a Father.

    Who empowered Elijah to perform miracles and the incredible resurrection? It was the "Almighty One" or also known as the "Grand Creator". Jesus is Godlike because his seed is from the Holy Spirit. He was born the perfect Human and lived in heaven since the beginning of time and is great and my Knig ans savior for my sins, NO ONE ELSE can save us or rule as our King. With his Father, the resurrection would, or yet the universe would not have happened. It did take two to make the resurrection happen, both the Father and the Son. After the Son poured his blood to save us of our inherited sin is was also the power of the Almighty God to give to the resurrection, and wasn't Jesus alone. I do not want to discount the power and Divinity of our King Jesus, but think the big mistake today in Religion is people tend to confuse that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct.

    I have learned that some people think the Father and the Son are not distinct. The issue of God's soveriegnty came into question when the evil one made mans imperfections clear creating today's pain and suffering until man comes to the conclusion of sanctifing His name and acknowleging God's unconditional soveriegnty in this system or perhaps after the resurrection and satan has been clever in taking God's praise away.

    So why did Jesus not have the power to do miracles until he was baptised at age 29? Where did this power come from once he commited to baptism? Did it come from himself and are you saying he independantly resurrected himselft without his Fathers involvement?

    We learn in Genenis 3 that God said Adan would return to "dust". Simple, die, cease to exist and return to dust. I love how simple the Bible is written and it amazes me how confusing us humons make what is says so plainly. Dust is non-existance, dirt, nothing, no hope of salvation or as Lennon McCartney put it he couldn't "Get Back". Peace, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2005
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    I agree. Moses could do nothing but what God worked through him.

    Divinity can mean a celestial being inferior to the supreme God but superior to man. Thomas said, "My Lord and my God." Is He God?

    You are misunderstanding firstborn. Firstborn means preeminent not the first one born. If a girl was firstborn she would not be if a male was born into her family. If a boy was born after the girl she would lose her title of firstborn and it would be transferred to the boy.
    Israel was not the first country, after all they were in Eygpt before becoming a nation. Ex 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son...
    It's a title and one word.

    JN 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

    Jesus said it did He not?

    If what you say is true, that Christ is the seed of God, then that in itself would make Him God. My father was a human and despite what others call me I am human.

    Three distinct persons. 'The let us make man in our image' shows distinct personages.

    You are not dealing with this, For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form... Col 2:9.
    Or this: that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:23.
    Just as one honours God the Father so one should honour Christ. In the same manner as one honours God the Father one must also honour God the Son.

    This happens to all of us. One only needs to look in an old grave for confirmation. Adam and Eve had a blood sacrifice made by God for him and her. GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

    They are both safe.

    john.
     
  9. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    except, many 'things' that are not literal.:)

    the people, places & events in the bible are literal in my belief. Lazarus, the rich man & Abraham are literal in this. the fire & drop of water are not literal, physical elements, while the torment of seperation from the living water who is God, is literal. & yes, i do not think Jesus told that story just to pertain to Lazarus & the rich man. it was told so we all could get a glimpse of what happens & what we will all see on the other side & he used Lazarus & the rich man to show us that. the rich man made that clear to me concerning his family.

    Jesus told of a lot of things before they happened & after they happened & while they were happening. We will have to agree to disagree:)

    there is nothing there that indicates three or only three, but i had a hunch that is why you were hammering so loud & i dont think any of that is what Tommy was trying to get at in this topic, but you feel you need to.:)
     
  10. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    John: When Thomas Said "My Lord and My God", Lord was directed to Jesus and My God was directed to God in heaven. When he doubted and saw the death wounds and was convinced on the resurrection it was like how we say today "Oh my God", directed to the Almighty God. I don't think Thomas was saying that Jesus was the Almighty God or Jesus' Father, even though this verse has been misunderstood this way. Think of seeing the wounds, my Lord, then pointing to the heavens and saying "oh my God". Jesus = God's Son and the Father = Jesus' Father, not how a manmade trinity may believe one to take glory away from the Father. Your right, that they must both be glorified as a Son is like his Father. Just like you may be like your Father, but it does not mean they are not distinct. Most will acknowlege they are distinct.

    It does say that Jesus was the first born of all creation. However, God is the Alpha and the Omega, with no beginning and no end. Being born means being created and God created His Son. Jesus is the only being from heaven and is in complete unity with his Father. They act alike, Father and Son. Praise and glory is owed to both the Father and the Son. By all means I do not mean to just praise the Father because without the Son we would not be able to get to the Father.

    Jesus did perform his miracles and my point is that he did so by the power of his Father. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Jesus asked that we do two things: 1) love your neighbor like yourself. This is a hard thing to do and if we mirror the way Jesus acted we can accomplish this as hard as it is to do. 2) He said to love his Father with all our mind, body and soul. Now if we say that there is just the Son and it is the same as the Father, then we are not sanctifying the name of the Father. Think about how Jesus taught us to pray. Matthew 6:9 "you must pray, then, this way: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified". If Jesus was in fact the Almighty God it would say here, like "my" name be sanctified. He was the perfect example of humility and humble and in my opinion did not want the praise taken from his Father. And yes, both the Father and the Son should be glorified and given thanks for our daily meal and being alive.

    I don't argue with Col 2:9 or any scriptures. It says glory to both the Father and the Son, I agree. Now if you say Jesus resurrected himslef with no power from God, does that not take glory away from God (the Father)? Peace, tommy
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2005
  11. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Ive never heard this before.. Ive always been taught and believed that this disciple was John. The same man whom Jesus told to behold his mother and His mother Mary to behold her son. Interesting I will have to try reading these scriptures again.
     
  12. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I tend to research alot Faithful. I may have overstepped my bounds.

    Q
     
  13. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi Faithfulservant: I know you have been around here for a long time and are a Faithful Servant. I find this very interesting that Jesus asked John to take care of his mother, Mary.

    I have always wondered what happen to Joseph and the many mysteries surrounding Joseph. I think that Joseph may have died an early death and perhaps was married before Mary since Jesus had cousins, and step Brothers and Sisters. I think Mary and Joseph also had additional children (i.e. Jude) after the Virgin Mary gave birth to Jesus as we know that Jesus was the oldest of his brothers and sisters.

    Sorry to allow this thread to go a bit off topic, but I wonder what happen to Joseph and why John would have taken on the responsibility of caring for Mary. Perhaps we don't know as it wasn't recorded. Peace to you, tommy
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2005
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    One God three persons. Each person distinct but inseparable. Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    Distinction of the persons is not the argument is it? The argument is whether Jesus is God or not. What did Isaiah say about Jesus that might make us exclaim, "My God!" ?
    Read John again and you will find that your explanation falls short: JN 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God.

    So you agree, in the same way we honour God the Father we must honour the Son? Just as?
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Preeminent.)
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:15-16.
    Since all things have been created by Him then He cannot be created otherwise that verse should read 'all other things' but as you know every word of God is flawless.
    He is before all things and all things were created by him and for him. Since He is before all things then He cannot be created can He? For by him all things were created. All things were created by the Son except Himself? The bible says no such thing does it? all things were created by him and for him is immutable, scripture cannot be broken.

    I do not disagree.

    I have no knowledge of such a thing, I thought a creation was conception but the Word of God was in the beginning. Not 'was created' in the beginning. John 1:1. I would have thought And the Word was God settled the matter. Does it take wisdom to understand a straight forward statement?
    HEB 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. God says that about His Son why do you not believe God?
    MAL 3:1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.
    He said He would come to His Temple.
    Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

    What? You praise Jesus? Do you worship a created thing? ISA 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

    For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. John 5:19 has Jesus saying He has life within Himself to give as He chooses. Now do you honour the Son just as you honour the Father or do you not honour God at all? That is what the verse says. Those who do not honour the Son just as the Father do not honour the Father. Isn't that correct?

    This is not a request but a command. Love the Lord your God with all your being is a command. Yet can you love God if Jesus is God and you have rejected Him? Surely if one wishes to honour the Son one must honour Him by loving Him. That is just as we should honour God. Obedience.
    This paragraph. Jesus asked that we do two things:
    First notice He says, "Our Father...". He is not everyones Father is He? He tells some Jews that they belong to their father the Devil so God is not the Father of mankind but only some. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1:12-13. He is however Sovereign over all men.

    And that is instructions on how to approach God as His Children. But that does not mean the Church do not pray to Jesus does it?
    1CO 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours:

    It does, the Father is credited with the rising as Jesus is also. Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." JN 2:19.
    Do you believe this? He says nothing about His Father rising Him here does it? "I will..." Jesus says.

    Then I'm back to square one ain't I? I thought you said that the one that dies is asleep. Do you believe the dead are conscious? They are if you believe Lukew 16 and Lazarus.

    john.
     
  15. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello Bandit.

    But you said it's not like that so how can you say it's to get a glimpse of a reality when we are shown things not real? Yet we are told that God is able ...to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 2 Peter 2:9.

    I was pointing out a plurality in the Godhead which is there from the beginning.

    Hammering? Being persistant maybe. Cool.

    Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

    I am a man under orders and but for Jonah I would have been a Jonah.

    ...teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. You are commanded to honour the Son just as you honour the Father. Ok, job done.

    The name of the rich man is unrecorded. The father he spoke to was father Abraham. The spirits of righteous men in Heaven can see the unrighteous who are being held for the day of judgment, while He continues their punishment, 2 Peter 2:9.

    The spirits of righteous men in Heaven, Heb 12:23, shows beyond doubt that the spirits of men go to one of two places upon death and a gulf exists which is unbridgable to us, Luke 16:26.

    JOB 27:11 "I will teach you about the power of God; the ways of the Almighty I will not conceal.

    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Jesus is the Power of God. 1 Cor 1:18. He is also the Wisdom of God. Could God produce wisdom without wisdom? And how could He say, "Let there be..." Without His word? In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. In the beginning God created His Son? What's it say?

    Luke 8:20 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you."

    john.
     
  16. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    Hi John!

    i dont really have much to say but i hope my hammer drowns out your hammer for awhile because now it sounds more like a jack hammer on a milk bottle.
    so here is my persistant hammer...
    first, if you think you are going to preach around here, think again.
    if you think you are going to get me into a debate on the godhead, think again.
    if you think you are the only one here who has studied the scriptures & your hammer is the only hammer that works, think again.

    i am under orders also. but if you are going to shove your orders down our throats because you think your orders & your church dogma is better & the only one, you will be creating problems with just about everyone here.
    you think you have it all figured out? no you don't & i am glad to be the one to tell you so.

    Last, you are commanded to wear the shoes of peace & love your brother no matter what & that means everyone. & if you dont, then you dont love God & you are not honoring Him.

    Ok, Job done.

    goodnight John
     
  17. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Hi, Y'all--

    This is a long thread, and I may not have caught the essence of what each one is attempting to say.

    However, it seems to me that the discussion boils down to whether or not one sleeps or, in effect, "rests in peace", before one sees Heaven or paradise, which to me, means being with Jesus.

    I say it all has to do with timing--God's, not ours. I believe that we do not understand that timing. I also believe that if I pass from this earth tomorrow morning, I will be with Jesus immediately, just like the thief on the cross adjacent to His. Some say "paradise" and "heaven" are two different things...okay, whatever.

    Whether I "sleep" or "rest" when I pass really makes not much difference to me, because I believe that wherever I go upon my passing, I will be with the Lord--He promised. Personally? I have seen loved ones who have passed from this realm, and they have shown themselves to me (or God showed them to me)--and they were healthy and happy and obviously had no need to rest. And I have been at the side of both loved ones and total strangers when their spirits left the body--I have seen many people leave this world. Having seen all of this, I believe that it really is not up to me to say what the Bible has not told me. What is has told me is that God's timing is not the same as that of this world. We cannot percieve what happens--I really believe that we do not know.

    If I pass on tomorrow, I will either be with my Lord and fully awake and healed and in Paradise, or I will sleep and rest in His arms and His promise (and I could use that). And if I rest, I know that it will not be in some place made up by Dante. That was all very creative and misleading and political! Dante had a problem with the history and politics of the Popedom. Personally, I do not blame him for that. But Dante was wrong.

    And it is a mistake to think that any one of us can say what happens when a body dies. I submit that we do not know. I insist, however, that we are promised renewal and rebirth and eternity--there may be some qualifications to this, but these are personal between each of us and our Creator. It just really is not for any one of us to say what happens until it happens to us individually.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  18. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    By the way, Lazarus was a dear bud of Jesus. He might not have volunteered for the job of seeing Heaven and then leaving, but he responded to the voice of His friend and Lord anyway. The importance of the resurrection of Lazarus is just that--he was resurrected. The unimportant but nevertheless intriguing part is what happened after all of this. Gee, lemme see--I am not told, so therefore I am not compelled to argue over any of it....

    I know-boring, right?:rolleyes:

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  19. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    good morning InLove:)
    i dont think it is boring. i think it is smart.
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Good morning Bandit.

    Not all of it. What I speak about I know, what I am not sure about I say 'I think'.

    Your welcome to your opinion of course but you are hasty in judgement. You do not know me from a couple of posts do you?

    That's because you do not accept scripture? If you don't believe Lazarus and the richman is an actual event then you will not know what happens after death will you, but God has told you? It only needs believing not working around.

    How much further forward has your post taken us?

    If I have stepped out of line please explain how? I have not been insulting. I have responded to posts and I have asked questions that are not answered that's all. If a person has no wish to speak to me that is up to them isn't it?

    I don't think of such things. I respond to posts and ask questions. What power have I to make you do anything? I was told to go and speak to people who want to speak to me not to those that do not. Whether you respond to me or not is in the Hands of God.

    john.
     

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