Did Lazerus' soul rise when he died?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by tommy, Nov 18, 2005.

  1. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    goodmorning john,
    i am glad to see you have your hammer with you today.

    what you speak about you know & so does everyone else.
    it is not a hasty judgment, it is hammer in the morning, hammer in the evening.

    how much farther has your post taken us? obviously what i am trying to say you are not getting because you already know what you know.

    whether i speak to you or not has nothing to with God, it has to do with my own personal choice then you turn around and say it is in the hands of God.
    so which is it?

    not only do you not have power to make me do anything, but you also do not have power to make me believe everything that you KNOW, just because you say so.
    maybe it is because you dont accept scripture? or there is a reading comprehension problem? or you just drown out what others are trying to say with your persistant hammering.

    are you the authority here on the scritpures? because you know or because you think you know?
    i don't think i need you to tell me what is literal & what is not literal in the bible and you are not my pastor.

    it only needs believing what? what you say as in we have to believe everything you say? because you know?

    do you know everything about God? do you know everything about heaven? do you know everything about hell & Lazarus? or do you just know what you know & what everyone else knows could never possibly be right.

    Do you KNOW if only Christians go to heaven, John? or do some of these other people with different beliefs get in also?

    my hammer has one end for pounding nails & one end for pulling out nails. does your hammer do that?

    yes i do think you have been a bit insulting, because what you KNOW you may just not know & your opinion comes across to me, like you know everything & not like it is your opinion. what i think you have done is nailed the casket shut on everything that you KNOW because your hammer never stops swinging long enough to pull the nails out & take another look at what is inside.
    but i dont think you know that.

    that is quite generous that you feel i am allowed my opinion & thank you. now if you know that, then accept, that people have different opinions without hammering them over the head with your opinion, because you think you can make them give the same answer you give to the questions you present with your hammer.

    Peace to you my brother.
     
  2. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Dear Brother John:

    I spent many, many hour this summer discussing this issue and devoting myself as a "soldier" of Jehovah God to defend His name on another forum with Catholics regarding the doctrine of the Trinity you can read here:

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=63857

    You have not answered my question: Did Jesus raise himself from the dead, or did the power of god assist him?

    I blame satan, the evil one from misleading the masses and do believe all souls will be given the opportunity at the resurrection to come into the truth during the resurrection to sanctify the name of Jehovah God as the supreme Grand Creator and glory given to both the Son and the Father.

    You can start a new thread on the Trinity if you wish to debate this issue. I am not going to discuss the Trinity any further on this thread, I refuse.

    The topic of this thread is where the soul goes after an earthly death. The "new heaven" and "new earth" play a big part in this topic and has been discussed very liitle on this thread. What does the "new heaven" and "new earth" mean to you. It means to me a new system in both heaven and earth that is free from satan influences.

    What does the resurrection mean? Where are we resurrected to? Is it a spiritual heaven or a restored earth? Why have the handful of resurrections come back to earth as opposed to being raised to a spiritual heaven?

    I'm not going to allow this thread to fall into that same old debate in the forums about the discussion on the Trinity. Please start a new thread rather then drifting into another topic other then the afterlife on my thread. I have spent hours and hours on these forums trying to be a soldier for Jehovah and the Trinity discussion has caused me to be banned on other threads five times for those who disagree and it is not going to happen to me here. I find this forum different than others in that true Christians are here like Bandit that are humble, patient, kind, loving and helpful to many with spiritual quests they find themselves in. Bandit has personally helped me a great deal with earthly struggles I have been it and I will admit I find him to be the kindest person I have had discussions with on Forums and he doesn't hand people their heads very often.

    Let's keep this discussion on the afterlife and I an still curious if you feel that Jesus raised himself or God was involved since this is on the topic of afterlife.

    Peace to you, your brother in Christ, tommy
     
  3. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Good afternoon Bandit.

    You sure? I don't believe you as your post is far from peaceful.

    Whoever calls on the Name of Christ is saved, whoever does not is not. And you? Do you believe that Heaven is open to other faiths? I shall not hold my breath waiting for an answer though as answers seem to be in short supply.

    I have said already that every word of God is flawless. What have I said that I did not use scripture to back up what I said. This is just an unfounded question.

    If there is I have found you to be of no help in getting me to understand the truth have I?

    The scriptures are the only authority I bow to, how about you? Jesus told us to tell people what we have been commanded to tell them. He did not say go into the world and make doubters did He?

    So you have an hammer, cool. I know what I know and if I said I didn't I would be a liar.

    Show me where I have been insulting. If speaking the truth is insulting then I shall continue to be so. You will have to show me my errors with scripture. Luke 16 is not an opinion but an actual fact. Jesus said, "LK 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day." Since Jesus said that then this is so.
    He says, "In hell, where he was in torment..." Jesus said that. What? It is not my opinion but the words of Christ.

    Man you are something else. You got me nailed I see.

    Don't mention it old chap.

    john.
     
  4. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    John, one question: Did Jesus raise himself from the dead, or did the power of God play a role??? Just ONE question, can you tell me please...
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    Thanks. If I find time I will go and have a look. They are wrong to call you a Prot that's for sure.

    I have answered your question with the words of Christ Himself. JN 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." He rose Himself. He is the Power of God. He is God. But how can we discuss this properly without the Trinity coming into the picture?

    Nice thought but it is contradicted by scripture. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment... We have Moses and the prophet's made more certain. 2 Peter 1:19. Since the richman was told that Moses and the prophets were enough we have no excuse as we have it more certain.
    Satan is not to blame for men's sins. If he were then men would not be guilty. We are told in Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
    Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...

    john.
     
  6. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    To me it means the raising of the dead at the last day but I know it also means a bringing back from the dead like Lazarus.

    On The Day of Judgement the dead will rise, some to shame and everlasting torment and the others to a life on a renewed earth.

    We are men. We were not designed to be disembodied spirits and as such we are to spend the rest of eternity in the flesh, either on a new earth or in Hell.

    It's not a new system. God is Sovereign. Heaven and earth have been corrupted and so the Lord will recreate the heavens and the earth.

    Five times! HaHa! Patience is hard won I suppose. I have been asked to mend my ways twice and threatened once with a ten day ban which sounded very enticing. I'm a good boy now. :cool:

    john.
     
  7. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    oh, I am very sure- I know what I know & what I say I know, I know!

    then dont believe me.
    hammer hammer hammer:D
     
  8. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    If there is everlasting torment, who is doing the tormenting? God? I find it hard to believe that our true understanding God would find any satisfaction tormenting a soul for ever and ever, especially someone hercreated. This sounds like a mean God, far from what the true God is. Do you believe that if one follow satan's ways then they burn in a fiery Hell with God tormenting them forever. The true God is not an abstract entity that comes to life tormenting a soul in a fiery hellpit forever. He's right behind our shoulder listening to our daily prayers and cares about us and doesn't torment. He is a God of love, peace and understanding.

    Is it satan who does the tormenting for one following satan? This wouldn't make sesne either in a fair reward system. Who does the tormenting? Hell is a state of non-existance where the soul has no chance of living with Jesus in everlasting life. Pretty simple...it ceases to exist and returns to dust as cleary put in Genesis Ch. 3. God did not say there that he was going to burn Adam in a fiery hell pit (an old myth) but nothing more than returning him to dust.

    What does this mean the lord will recreate a new heaven and new earth? What does the word new mean? I think new means a new system that is free from satan influences in both heaven and earth. Then, who would live on this new earth? Would this be a society of any certain group of people free from satan influences and how did these souls get narrowed down to the ones free of satan influences? How would this new earth relate to the resurrection? I find many of these questions will be revealed to us and are answered in Revelations. Any thoughts from anyone here on this? Peace, tommy
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2005
  9. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

    Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Everybody there will be under punishment and will not be able to inflict pain onto another I think. That only leaves God to do the tormenting.

    Whether it satisfies Him or not I have no idea but it is the punishment for the crime.

    No. It might be far from what you think He is like but His word tells us what He is really like. ...He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Rev 19:15.
    He does not forgive all His enemies.

    Yes I do. The soul that sins will die. The soul that does not ask Jesus for forgiveness will die. Do you believe in scripture?

    Of course He is. ...He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Rev 19:15. Love and peace man.

    No man that belong in comedy sketches. Hell was prepared for Satan and the fallen angels as a place of punishment not as an holiday camp.

    Jesus said, "In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." Luke 16:23.
    You are opposing scripture. Do you accept scripture as the final word?

    Easy peasy.

    Not so, "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. MT 25:41.
    Hell has been around since their fall.

    This universe along with the heavens will cease to exist and a new universe and heavens will take it's place.

    "new." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (1 Dec. 2005).

    That would be adding to scripture. A new heavens and a new earth has been promised and will come to be. There is no system change as God is Sovereign and will always remain Sovereign. Sin will be a thing of the past.

    The Children of God.

    We are free from Satan's influence now. If Christ makes you free you will be free indeed. The question though needs rephrasing for me.

    The resurrected saved will populate it pristine. A wedding present to the Bride of Christ.

    How'd I do?

    john.
     
  10. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Hi Tommy :)

    I was taught that the bible has a specific purpose.. the NT's purpose was the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Its believed that Joseph died.. remember that he was older than Mary so its entirely possible that he died and because it didnt have a direct effect on the message of the NT it was just not mentioned. That could also be why Lazarus wasnt mentioned afterwards.

    There is great mystery to the Word of God.. and Im sure that He will delight in our questions when we meet Him. Its wonderful that we can be curious about the whole story of these people that knew our Savior and its wonderful that Christ still remains the center of the spotlight in our studies. :)

    FS
     
  11. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hi Faithful:

    You are so right and I agree the significance of the NT is Jesus' ministery and details not significant do no matter. It's just the faith in Christ. I'm not sure why I think about those other details other then the curious part of human nature.

    Hi John:

    You did a good job if we don't realize that Revelation is symbolism. Rev. 1...And he sent forth his angel and presented it in "signs" through him to his slave John.

    Signs = symbolism and therefore the fire actually means annihilation. Consider Matthew 25:46 "And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, the the righteous ones into everlasting life".

    Therefore the fiery hellpit which is sysbolism actually means the opposite of everlasting life according to Matthew and is everlasting cutting-off not an actual fire burning upon this person, they just can't be with Christ. Here's another: Psalms 6:5 "For in death there is no mention of you, in She-ol who will laud you". Therefore, in death there is no mention means non-existant.

    Eccleisiastes 9:10 says, "All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge, nor wisdom in She-ol, the place to which you are going".

    The lake of death means the second death in a symolic way. Rev. 20-14 says "And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire". Therefore, death would be the opposite of everlasting life, meaning everlasting death, no chance of getting back. Therefore, satan's fiery torment means everlasting death.

    In fact Babylon's annihilation is called a fiery torment Rev. 18:8-10.

    In we read Luke 16:22-24 we learn that fire is no more literal than Adraham's bosom.

    Therefore, hell is a place of inactivity and not a literal place of fiery torment. Matthew says in my earlier quote real plaingly that cutting-off in death sybolized fire.

    We must realize when reading Revelation that much symbolism is use. I hope this helps explain. Have a great day, tommy
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    Cool! I made a mistake in not taking into account Revelation is symbolism? :cool:

    What bible have you? Neither the KJV or NIV have '...And he sent forth his angel and presented it in "signs" through him to his slave John.'

    If you mean Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John... NIV.

    It says He made it known in the NIV and that is supported by the KJV with 'and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John' and signified means 2 a : to show or make known especially by a conventional token (as word, signal , gesture)

    Yes and everlasting death is everlasting separation from God. You can see that death is separation from God in the illustration He gave us in the Garden. ..."You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Gen 2:16.
    Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
    He did not say that 930 years after Adams eats the fruit but "when you eat of it you will surely die." And then the "Where are you?"

    Your understanding of death is wrong tommy.

    Matthew 25:46 "And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off...
    Can you explain to me how 'cutting off' becomes annihilation please?

    MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV.

    MT 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. KJV.

    Both translations translate the cutting off as eternal punishment what gives your translation authority?
    If cutting off means annihilation why wasn't the word 'annihilation' used? If that is the proper translation, 'annihilation', then it should read 'annihilation' because cutting off never means 'annihilation' does it? Is annihilation always meant in the OT when 'cutting off' is mentioned?

    john.
     
  13. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hey John:

    Sorry so long to respond here, hard to explain... I hope you understand. One question though, if humans are tourmented in a fiery hell, how does their soul burn forever if they are no longer human???
     
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    No problem nor need to explain.

    First of all men will be human. Secondly, as to the 'how' I haven't a clue but the scripture says that those already dead do feel pain. ...to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 2 Peter 2:9. (Luke 16:19-31)

    All men that have died before Jesus returns will be resurrected and each assigned to their final destination publicly. Men will not be disembodied spirits in Hell as men will not be disembodied spirits in Heaven, Heaven is being relocated to Earth, the natural home for us.


    How's that?

    john.
     
  15. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Welcome back Tommy ;)

    v/r

    Q
     
  16. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Hey Q (Josh), congratulations on your promotion to Moderator, the time you spend here is amazing and I am sure is appreciated by all.


    John, glad to see your still hanging around here. You mentioned an afterlife here on Earth. Even though I believe Jesus rules in Heaven (seperate from Earth) it's great to here thoughts regarding the New Earth being right here where God had originally intendted before the evil one set us on this course causing all the pain and suffering by tempting our first fore-father, Adam and messed up his beautiful wife Eve casuing her to grow old and die.

    I went through a sur-real experience I won't go into much detail regarding posting on another web-site involving an Investigator showing up at my front door that caused deep persecution for my beliefs that I know are true now since this happened. I will admit that I am somewhat afraid of the Internet now and will only occasionally post on non-work hours since my company legal department was involved. What a mess this caused in my life and I still don't understand what prompted this all to happen. Maybe it's not right to point out different beliefs to those who are not ready spiritually to see some truths in what the Bible really says. That's why I am sidelined.

    John, we will probably never agree on my point that our "happy" God is not into burning his creation in a fiery hell. It's OK to differ and debate. Thanks for being so kind here and I believe this is the best religious forum out there because it allows for differing views and is not a club that everyone must think the same. All the love in the world to you all, tommy
     
  17. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    At the risk of being rude...Plasma fire. Fusion becomes fission, and fission becomes fusion, but the fire never goes out. It needs no oxygen, and is it's own fuel. The fire itself is actually in a potential state, hence it can remain forever thus...

    my thoughts

    v/r

    Q
     
  18. tommy

    tommy New Member

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    Think of it like this: What does everlasting life mean? Being alive forever. What is eternal death then? The opposite of everlasting life which is being dead forever, right?

    In death there is no thought, no senses and no life since life is the opposite of death. Fire is a symbol of annihilation. We read about the Lake of Fire in Revelation which uses symbolism. It is symbolism as lakes have water and do not burn and the fiery torment is sybolism of one ceasing to exist with no chance of everlasting life. We also read of satan's fiery torment is everlsating death Rev. 20: 13-14. The second death in the lake of fire means that the soul didn't repent and gave up the chance for everlasting life. Note that this is not God's torment, but the wicked ones and the torment is the giving up of the prospect of everlasting life, the opposite of death.

    Matt 25:41, 46 and 13:30 refers to the cutting off in death is symbolized by fire.

    Well, got to go work now on appointments and for the record this post is from my PC at home and has nothing to do with work. Have a good day, tommy
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2006
  19. taijasi

    taijasi GnĊthi seauton

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    "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace,
    whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
    For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:28-29)
    As a note, this does not say - lest we be burned alive, or eternally. It simply says that God is a consuming fire.
    Indeed, when Moses beheld the Lord ...

    hmmmm .....

    andrew
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello tommy.

    I'm sorry to hear about your bit of bother.

    Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

    I see no reason for our respective views to interfer with a good relationship in our discussion. My doctrine deals with some very shocking revelations that I do not expect people to like.
    Today's God is not the same as the God of old. The God portrayed in scripture, the God of wrath has been replaced with Sweet Jesus.
    I believe the scriptures, I believe that if a man claims a thing that scripture does not declare I am at liberty not to believe it and if it does say a thing I have no option but believe it.

    I believe all scripture is God breathed and is useful and I live my life by it. I only use scripture to prove my point and I shun opinion not substantiated by it. I don't mean I hold other's opinions in contemp, I have probably held many myself, I mean an argument can only be won or lost to me if it is a biblical argument not if it's a good idea.

    John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
    Everlasting life means that one will never die of course but it has more meaning to it. Life is opposite of death but death has never meant cessation of conciousness but a seperation from God primarily.

    Dead forever yes but concious. God told Adam that in the day he touch the tree he would die. His seperation from God is evidenced by the fact that Adam hid himself from God, the seperation of our spirit and His had taken place. That is the biblical meaning of the word death as well as a word that describes physical death.

    Your understanding of the word is different to mine. Your meaning of it equals annihilation? whereas I see no evidence in scripture for this but the opposite I do.
    Hebrews 12: (22-24) has a description of where all Christians are standing if they but realised it.

    It says:
    ...You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect... verse 23
    And the Peter verse talks of a continuing punishment of those doomed.

    We call it custom and practise. If everyone does it it is alright as long as you don't get caught. Your IP will be logged I should imagine.

    john.
     

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