God and the gods? can we have both?

[_Z_]

God and the gods.



I am wondering if there should be two different terms used for ‘god’ then ‘the gods’? Also is there room for both in our philosophical model of reality?



I cannot conceive of a reality with a separate god – and would consider such a notion as dualistic philosophy [which I do not subscribe to]. Thus I would say god is at the heart of all things –the universal centre.



Then we can ask, is god personal or impersonal?

Some see the impersonal as ‘higher’ than the personified, I wonder if there is no hierarchy in the spirit [this would reduce and constrain the universal nature of spirit], and that as we are unseen spirits made visual in our forms [humans], so to is a personified godhead! There is not a part of us/within us that is above another, all aspects join as one complete being – I would suggest that the same applies to ‘god’[universal inner self?] and his universal being, within the body of the universe, and his body – existence itself.

Thus as we are one and complete yet multi faceted [one and multiple], then so to is god, except he is not human he is universal and physically the shape of existence!



Well that is my current thoughts on the idea of god. The gods however are completely different!!!!



Any one of us can become a god, indeed many gods were people like us. Could it be that gods are grown ups in the next world! Whatever they are, it is apparent that they cannot all be universal deities or persons, thus they are of a different nature to god.





So does anyone have any ideas on what gods are? – in the great scheme of things.



Can we have both the gods and god in the same philosophy? Do we have to discard one for the other, and be monotheistic, pantheistic & pagan etc. why not include all wisdoms.


Perhaps all gods are god and he simply has many faces


Z

 

[Ciel]

Z,

Is it possible to see the universe as a filter from God,and when in balance, as one.

 

[wil]

Namaste,

Perhaps all gods are god and he simply has many faces

A hindu priest when expressing the monotheistic nature of Hinduism, said all the gods are Krishna, different people perceive him in differing ways and he expresses in differing personalities dependent on the task at hand. He went on to say, 'To my son I am a father, to my mother I am a son, to my niece I am an uncle and to my sister I am a brother. But I am all the same man.'

I see us, all reality as God furthermost expression into 3D. Like a face or hands pushing through a cloth you see an outline. The planet, the stars, rocks, trees, animals, and humans, we are each part and parcel of God pushing through the fabric of the universe, of the quantum if you will.

Much as a cell in your fingernail, doesn't know it is part of you, or a cell in your femur doesn't know it is kin to the cell in your fingernail. Or if you fingernail scratches your eye, the cells that were damaged don't know that it is part of the same whole as that that did the damage. It seems to me that we don't realize we are part of the same whole, we are the manifestation of God, litterally his image expressing. So when we kill one another, when we deride one another we are simply scratching at another part of ourcellves. Each not knowing we are one.

We are not gods we is God. You and I and God is one, not are one, we are a singular entity. In biology they have found the connections and oneness in thousands of year old mesquite bushes and whole aspen forests, discovering all these single entities are one. They've experimented with yogurt cultures and seen them 'communicate', and shown one human a visual stimulus and seen recorded the exact same response (both hooked up with EEG to view and analyze brain function) even when these humans were seperated/isolated in RF rooms...no electronic transmission known to man could move from one room to the other, but their brains both responded to the visual stimulus.

Many religions state the same in differing ways...Jesus said Ye are Gods, and we can do everything he did, and that we are all children of God and he and the father are one....a=b=c=d....oneness.

 

[iBrian]

Indeed - Divinity is Divinity. If we become too fixated upon the names, we give ourselves over to the flaws of language.

 

[Agnideva]

Namaste Z,

Do you realize that your positions on God and the "Gods" are very similar to those held in Hinduism? Almost everything you’ve said is a doctrine in one Hindu school of thought or another.

I am wondering if there should be two different terms used for ‘god’ then ‘the gods’? Also is there room for both in our philosophical model of reality? Thus I would say god is at the heart of all things –the universal centre.

There are two ways of thinking about this in Hinduism.
(A) Vedanta/Smarta Hinduism - All "Gods" are manifestations of the one supreme God seen in different ways (as explained to Wil by the Hindu priest).
(B) Shaivite, Shakta, and Vaishnavite Hinduism - There are various beings at different levels, who we may call "Gods", but the center of all is supreme God. Ultimately, there is only God, and S/He operates through all beings.

If you believe in (B), then such beings under God are classified as Devas (shiny ones) and Mahadevas (great shiny ones).

Some see the impersonal as ‘higher’ than the personified, I wonder if there is no hierarchy in the spirit

In Hinduism, this depends on the denomination. In Vedanta/Smarta tradition, impersonal aspect is said to be higher. In Vaishnavite tradition, personal form is a higher realization. In Shaivite and Shakta traditions, there is no difference between impersonal and personal, there is no hierarchy.

Thus as we are one and complete yet multi faceted [one and multiple], then so to is god, except he is not human he is universal and physically the shape of existence!

Yes, this position is held by many Hindu schools of thought.

Well that is my current thoughts on the idea of god. The gods however are completely different! Any one of us can become a god, indeed many gods were people like us. Could it be that gods are grown ups in the next world! Whatever they are, it is apparent that they cannot all be universal deities or persons, thus they are of a different nature to god.

In Hinduism, this is true. One can become a Deva. The Devas are positions held for a fixed amount of time, in the subtle plane of existence.

After a person is liberated from the cycles of birth and death (samsara), s/he becomes a mukta, a liberated being, and lives among the Mahadevas in the causal plane of existence, before attaining complete oneness.

Can we have both the gods and god in the same philosophy?

Yes we can, as long as we understand what the "Gods" are, and what their purpose is.

Perhaps all gods are god and he simply has many faces

This is the position of Vedanta/Smarta Hinduism.


A.

 

[_Z_]

Ciel, hello.



Is it possible to see the universe as a filter from God, and when in balance, as one



Well we could begin with the essential nature of god as pure [like infinity], this then can be seen to filter into the multiplicity - inner body of god – perhaps- and on to the outer body – nature. Thus we go from simplicity to subtle natures to gross natures. During this process I would see god taking on different forms! Beginning as his inner self, then moving to universal spirit then on to nature as the body i.e. multiple forms.



Wil, hi



All the gods are Krishna



This idea makes much sense to me! This idea leads me to a strange extreme: I have found that to describe one thing we must describe all things, if we say god is in every atom, then add the above idea of ‘simplicity to gross’ and separate the atom from all other existences [throw it in the void], then god is the infinity around and within the atom then the atom body itself. So everything is god! We are god the gods are god – everything is as singular and multiple – the universal face of god.

To visualise this idea, if we think of the Hindu image of ‘godhead’ and then expand the picture to everything!



So when we kill one another, when we deride one another we are simply scratching at another part of ourselves



I see it very similarly.



We are all children of God and he and the father are one....a=b=c=d....oneness



All things are the trinity – intriguing!



I Brian, hi.



Divinity is Divinity. If we become too fixated upon the names, we give ourselves over to the flaws of language.



Yep! I think as concerns divinity, that god in his indefinable nature [pre-distinction or beyond infinity] is divinity, many gods are not – perhaps we can say that as soon as there is distinction then divinity is lost! The faces of god i.e. the gods then are a lesser non-divine personification of god, they represent gods lesser natures, yet may show us other truths e.g. Anubis and balance. I am not sure on the notion of divinity as it immediately causes a hierarchal perspective – but that’s a whole debate in itself eh!



Agnideva, namaste.



Your positions on God and the "Gods" are very similar to those held in Hinduism



Well yes, there are so many similarities indeed. I wonder if Hinduism has an understanding similar to the universal spirit or the divine centre, in druidry there is the ‘awen’ with is a language tree that stems from one sound [may be a medieval notion, rather than ancient] – a bit like ‘ohm’ wouldn’t you say!



There are two ways of thinking about this in Hinduism.



Interesting! I would automatically try to join the two systems as one – it’s just my way. ‘B’ implies a hierarchy, so I would go for ‘a’ as a philosophical basis and non-dualistic base. Then say that ‘b’ is like a layer over this! As all duality is secondary to the fundamental nature of reality imho.

I did not realise that Hindu’s considered the world as god’s body! I thought this was a pagan – earth mother notion. In druidry god is primarily feminine [first form] although in essence non sexual [the divine centre]. Then it is the eternal androgen in the outer form, this is symbolised by two adders, one male one female, the female devours the male then gives birth to it – like the cycles of life in context to the food chain.



Respect all, and thanx for replies!



Z





















Ciel, hello.



Is it possible to see the universe as a filter from God, and when in balance, as one



Well we could begin with the essential nature of god as pure [like infinity], this then can be seen to filter into the multiplicity - inner body of god – perhaps- and on to the outer body – nature. Thus we go from simplicity to subtle natures to gross natures. During this process I would see god taking on different forms! Beginning as his inner self, then moving to universal spirit then on to nature as the body i.e. multiple forms.



Wil, hi

All the gods are Krishna

This idea makes much sense to me! This idea leads me to a strange extreme: I have found that to describe one thing we must describe all things, if we say god is in every atom, then add the above idea of ‘simplicity to gross’ and separate the atom from all other existences [throw it in the void], then god is the infinity around and within the atom then the atom body itself. So everything is god! We are god the gods are god – everything is as singular and multiple – the universal face of god.

To visualise this idea, if we think of the Hindu image of ‘godhead’ and then expand the picture to everything!

So when we kill one another, when we deride one another we are simply scratching at another part of ourselves

I see it very similarly.

We are all children of God and he and the father are one....a=b=c=d....oneness

All things are the trinity – intriguing!



I Brian, hi.

Divinity is Divinity. If we become too fixated upon the names, we give ourselves over to the flaws of language

.



Yep! I think as concerns divinity, that god in his indefinable nature [pre-distinction or beyond infinity] is divinity, many gods are not – perhaps we can say that as soon as there is distinction then divinity is lost! The faces of god i.e. the gods then are a lesser non-divine personification of god, they represent gods lesser natures, yet may show us other truths e.g. Anubis and balance. I am not sure on the notion of divinity as it immediately causes a hierarchal perspective – but that’s a whole debate in itself eh!



Agnideva, namaste.

Your positions on God and the "Gods" are very similar to those held in Hinduism

Well yes, there are so many similarities indeed. I wonder if Hinduism has an understanding similar to the universal spirit or the divine centre, in druidry there is the ‘awen’ with is a language tree that stems from one sound [may be a medieval notion, rather than ancient] – a bit like ‘ohm’ wouldn’t you say!

There are two ways of thinking about this in Hinduism

.



Interesting! I would automatically try to join the two systems as one – it’s just my way. ‘B’ implies a hierarchy, so I would go for ‘a’ as a philosophical basis and non-dualistic base. Then say that ‘b’ is like a layer over this! As all duality is secondary to the fundamental nature of reality imho.

I did not realise that Hindu’s considered the world as god’s body! I thought this was a pagan – earth mother notion. In druidry god is primarily feminine [first form] although in essence non sexual [the divine centre]. Then it is the eternal androgen in the outer form, this is symbolised by two adders, one male one female, the female devours the male then gives birth to it – like the cycles of life in context to the food chain.



Respect all, and thanx for replies!



Z

 

[wil]

too much fun

if we say god is in every atom, then add the above idea of ‘simplicity to gross’ and separate the atom from all other existences [throw it in the void], then god is the infinity around and within the atom then the atom body itself. So everything is god! We are god the gods are god – everything is as singular and multiple

to expand...

Us/things and God.....the wave and the ocean analogy....
We can sit on the beach and see a swell, we see the swell change into a wave...but neither the swell at any juncture nor the wave contain the same water molecules yet they are all/each made up of the same sea. It lifts itself out of the water higher and higher, curls and 'waves' at us...again differing water molecules same sea...and to us same wave. We don't 'catch' a changing wave, we catch the wave, and ride 'it' to the shore...what is 'it' is whatever the sea is made of yet constantly changes under our feet (board). And at the same time it is the sea, it is the same as the rest of the sea, just currently temporarily expressing as a wave, and then it makes its transition back into the sea. We, trees, the stars are the wave, temporarily expressing, till we make our transition. But more people, treees, and planets are born every day...just as others make their transition...

 

[Agnideva]

Namaste Z,

I wonder if Hinduism has an understanding similar to the universal spirit or the divine centre, in druidry there is the ‘awen’ with is a language tree that stems from one sound [may be a medieval notion, rather than ancient] – a bit like ‘ohm’ wouldn’t you say!

The concept of Awen sounds very much like Aum - interesting!

I did not realise that Hindu’s considered the world as god’s body!

Yes, but not all. The 12th century Vaishnavite philosopher called Ramanuja used these exact words, “the world is the body of God.” All Hindus, though, always maintain that there is a transcendent aspect (panentheism).

In druidry god is primarily feminine [first form] although in essence non sexual [the divine centre].

Very interesting Z. In Hinduism we call this religion Shaktism where God is the Divine Mother - the whole world is Her manifestation and all beings Her children. The Divine Mother has many forms, both benign and fierce. The Divine Mother is imminent manifest and Brahman the transcendent unmanifest Absolute.

A.