The Transfiguration

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Arizona, Dec 4, 2005.

  1. Arizona

    Arizona Established Member

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    OK Bandit here is some scripture.

    Mar

    9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

    9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

    9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

    9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

    9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

    9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

    9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

    9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

    9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

    9:11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?

    9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

    9:13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

    --------

    Also Mat 17:1-13. Mat 17:13 adds this: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

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    Something interesting I saw was this:

    9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

    So then could it be that those standing at the time who did not see death were Peter, James and John who saw the Kingdom of God 6 days later?

    9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

    Ok Bandit, your turn...
     
  2. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    i have heard some people say that is when the Kingdom (Church) started, but i dont think it was because they were not filled with the Holy Ghost until Pentecost. The Holy Ghost is what brought them the 'power' to do the things they did & carry on the work & minsitry of Jesus, so we would all know about it today.
    but i agree with you that it must have been those 3 who Jesus was refering to, but no limited to only them because there was 120 total later in the upper room.

    i am going to get back to this on monday. we have service tomorrow & i wont be back til late sunday night. so have a good one Arizona & looking forward to this with everyone.:)
     
  3. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    One lesson which stands out is man's thinking and God's thinking are often very different (cf. Isa. 55: 8, 9). Peter's suggestion to build three tabernacles was not good (Matt. 17: 4, 5). Peter, as a man, was wrong on numerous occasions. Hence some opine that the Papacy and infallibility of Peter is patently a false doctrine. (I disagree with the first part but do agree with the second part, that is that the infallibility of Peter is false. Howver the Papacy of Peter is not false). Peter was impulsive and melodramatic. He often engaged his mouth before his brain kicked in. But unlike others, Peter dropped to his knees when I realized his mistakes. His only fault really, was that he wanted Jesus to take command so badly that he tried to push the issue or force Jesus to his way of thinking. Alpha personality.

    Another obvious lesson is the majesty and grandeur of Jesus. Two men could not have been found who were more spiritually representative than Moses the great law giver and Elias, the head of the prophets. Notwithstanding, the voice declared regarding Jesus, "…hear ye him." Paul wrote of Jesus that Christians are in Jesus' kingdom, Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, and he is the Creator (Col. 1: 13, 15, 16). Also, Jesus is the head of the church, and has all authority in heaven and earth (Col. 1: 18, Matt. 28: 18). Moreover, we are complete in Jesus (Col. 2: 10)

    It behooves us today to hear Jesus and Jesus only (2 Jn. 9-11). There is salvation in no other name or person (Acts 4: 12). Men and their creeds dull in comparison to Jesus and his splendor.​

    I'm aware that this thinking is not exactly beneficial to the Catholic doctrine, however, I'm not quite the nominal Catholic either. ;)

    v/r

    Q
     
  4. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead. matthew 17;9 when someone has a vision it is as if it is really happening they actually see the things ,but it is just a vision and this vision that they had , was a vision for a future time also , it was a prophetic event

    The transfiguration vision came at a critical time. Jesus had started to tell his followers that he was going to suffer and die in Jerusalem, but they found his words difficult to grasp. (Matthew 16:21-23) The vision strengthened the faith of Jesus’ three apostles in preparation for his coming death and also for the years of hard work and testing that would follow for the Christian congregation. Can we today learn something from the vision? Yes, because what it foreshadowed actually takes place in our time

     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I think not. Vision in this case was an actual sighting of events. It was not described as a view through mental conjuring, but something that actually happened to three human mortals.

    Also, Jesus did not instruct them to keep their imagination quiet, but rather to keep what they "Saw", quiet.

    Third, Jesus' death was known to become a reality. He ticked off too many powerful people. That is not hard to grasp at all. And it has no bearing in today's society. It was meant for them, and we are lucky to have been informed about it. Moses and Elijah mean very little to us, however they meant a great deal to those of the time. Jesus was not yet savior, so old laws still adhereed.

    The transfiguration was simply the shell of the world flaking off of Jesus, so that his followers could get a glimpse of the real personage of Christ.

    I see a corn husk and think that is corn. But the reality is it is not. I shuck the husk from the core, and then I see the real corn. That is the good stuff.

    Jesus showed the disciples the "good stuff". Why? Because they were ready for the next step, and they needed that to reinforce themselves. That much we do agree on.

    my thoughts

    v/r

    Q
     
  6. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    so why did jesus say it was a vision , ? The transfigaration was faith strengening then, and it is faith strengthening now for Gods people.

    and Jesus called it a "vision." That does not imply unreality, for the Greek word used at Matthew 17:9 is elsewhere rendered "sight." (Acts 7:31) So the observers were completely awake, and with their eyes and ears, they actually saw and heard what was taking place.—Luke 9:32 i supose it is a bit like the apostle john and the book of revelation he had many visions that were things for a future time . when the 3 apostles saw this vision from God it was seeing Jesus in his glory

    Jesus himself called what took place a "vision" (Mt 17:9), but not a mere illusion. Christ was actually there, though Moses and Elijah, who were dead, were not literally present. They were represented in vision. The Greek word used for "vision" at Matthew 17:9 is ho´ra·ma, also rendered "sight." (Ac 7:31) It does not imply unreality, as though the observers were laboring under a delusion. yes the transfigaration has great meaning for Gods people today

    The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete. and yes Jesus kingly power came about in 1914 in the heavens as all serious bible students will be aware

    Moses and Elijah foreshadow the anointed remnant in the time of the end. why?

    Because the anointed remnant perform works that, in a spiritual way, are like those of Moses and Elijah

     
  7. Arizona

    Arizona Established Member

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    I think Moses represented the Law and Elijah the Spirit. The two houses that work together but illustrate the same thing differently. For example, Moses would represent the flesh/tabernacle and Elijas the spirit/temple. Jesus brought peace to the two. Our flesh and our Spirit. He came so that all flesh would be saved,or, that all flesh would be activated by His spirit that was poured out at Pentecost. His and our resurrection in the flesh.


    Name meanings:

    James - supplanter
    John - the lord is gracious
    Peter - rock

    These are the three witnesses.

    So perhaps we have a story in here. For example, supplanter means one who wrongfully or illegally seizes and holds the place of another. So we have the nephilim who seized the dna, the lord is gracious which is the salvation of the flesh or dna, and the rock which is the flesh that was saved. To me it is a story or figure of what Jesus came to do. To bring the Holy Spirit into all flesh so nullifying the plot to separate God through tainted dna from the flesh. As I understand it this was the first fall of Babylon. But babylon falls twice. The second time is when the Provision for the two making peace is activated by our resurrection. His was first. Then the provision for the rest of creation is the second. In my understanding this will end the saga of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpant. Reptillian? Though I believe that the reptillian or nephalim were the offspring not the ones who manipulatd the dna to begin with. When these ones are defeated as such that will be the second fall of Babylon. Jesus the only begotton Son of God brought the first Babylon to an end and the adopted sons, us, will be the instruments of the second fall of Babylon. This will be exposed and finished when our dna, Divine Nature Activated, is activated. When this happens I believe the second Judgement will finish the saga. When flesh cannot mock Father or His presence and it is cleary exposed that will end all this mess. That nothing can exist without Him nor can anything prevent Him. Its all Fathers and always was and all we can do is bend what is in the tool box. We cannot mock or change what the toolbox is. Its nature is absolute which is the gracious resolve of all these things. Thank God !

    What say you?
     
  8. Arizona

    Arizona Established Member

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    ... so to continue

    The transfiguration was real time. It was being accomplished in the Spirit first, Moses and Elijah, and the three witnesses were an illustration of what the result of the Ressurection was all about. The day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of the physical illustration. The three witnesses were real time to the promise of what was to come. What Jesus did is finsihed. All flesh now has the provision for hearing Father directly in a legal sort of manner. Of course the flesh could never mock Him at anytime but Father sent Jesus to expose the accuser. He let all this happen in order to expose all things and end it. Father used their law againt them to revoke it. The law of Moses was that illustration of making the laws of religious men legal and then resolving it to our Liberty. All that is happening now is that all these things are being fully exposed. Not that it could have ever changed His Laws at all. But by participation all things, mere ideas, can be put into practice and exposed whether correct or incorrect. What exists besides ideas? Participation. In participating we test our ideas to be true or false but their fruits.
     
  9. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    No, they were not dead. They were there. Their spirits were observed. We are not told they were not there. The three stood together and conversed. Then Peter broke into the conversation. If you insist that the two were dead, then you insist that all was an illusion, including the transfiguration of Christ. A parlor trick.

    v/r

    Q
     
  10. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    how could their spirits be observed , the immortality of the human soul is not a bible teaching ,the bible teaches that when we die we go to dust. did jesus say it was a vision or not , it seems to me that most are ignoring the vision part of what jesus said ,how come others are not putting that word vision in their quotes . moses and ilijah were long ago dead they forshadowed ones who would act like them
    And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead. matthew 17;9

    In the transfiguration, evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.—Ga 3:24; Heb 1:1-3

    since the transfiguration occurred after the death of John the Baptizer, Elijah’s appearance in it indicates that a work of restoration of true worship and vindication of Jehovah’s name would be associated with the establishment of God’s Kingdom in the hands of Christ

     
  11. Arizona

    Arizona Established Member

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    It seems to me that vision here means they saw through the veil. They saw beyond the 3D frequency. It is spiritually literal for example. If I recall correctly Elijha did not die in the flesh but was taken in a chariot and there was a dispute over the body of Moses in which case "satan" lost.
     
  12. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I submit that it unequivicably does. I also submit that immortality and eternal Life are linked intrinsically together. Now I agree that we are not born immortal, but take it on by the grace of God.



    Luke 20:27-40 27 Then some of the Sadducees, who deny that there is a resurrection (anastasin), came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses wrote . . . 33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife." 34 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "the sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36a nor can they die anymore, 36b for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised (egeirontai), when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."



    John 11:25-26 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life (anastasis kai he zoe). He who believes in Me, though he may die (apothane), he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.



    1 Corinthians 15:51-54 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52a in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 52b For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible (hoi nekroi egerthesontai aphthartoi), and we shall be changed (hemeis allagesometha). 53a For this corruptible (phtharton) must put on incorruption (aphtharsian), 53b and this mortal (thneton) must put on immortality (athansian). 54a So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, 54b then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death (thanatos) is swallowed up in victory."



    2 Corinthians 5:1-4 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality (thneton) may be swallowed up by life.



    "The biblical, particularly New Testament, definition of immortality is immunity from decay and death that proceeds from sharing the eternal life of God. In contradiction to the traditional "immortality of the soul" advocates, immortality is not intrinsic to all humans by nature. Only God possesses absolute immortality which is a term that expresses God's unique eternal livingness and holiness. Therefore, man's immortality is derived from God and is a participation in God's livingness and holiness. Human immortality is a biblical concept that is inseparably related to resurrection and eternal life. Each of the three terms inform the others. Adam was created with 'immortability' but the consequence of the Fall produced certain mortality in him and all his prodigy. Certainly-mortal fallen man receives immortality as a gift from God, as a consequence of having exercised faith and repentance, because of Christ's death and resurrection. The temporal occasion for a believer's receipt of, or sharing in, God's immortality begins at the point of death when he will be present with the Lord in a house not made with hands and his final somatically immortal state is fully acquired at the Last Day when the dead in Christ will experience transformation-resurrection unto immortality and the living in Christ will experience transformation unto immortality. And this state will be sustained by God who will forevermore share His everliving-holy immortality with the otherwise everdying-unholy mortal objects of His mercy."

    "If a man dies, shall he live again?" Job 14:14
    "This I know, that in my flesh I shall see God." Job 19:26
    v/r

    Q
     
  13. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    yah. this was real good for me. that is what Jesus was showing us, the gift of life- the gift of eternal life through Him. pretty neat stuff :)
    Arizona, were you raised in church? or did you search these things out on your own?
     
  14. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    Mee, i dont know where you are gettinig this from. to say the human soul is not immortal is surely a different perception than what i have. God is a soul & He is immortal.
    the flesh goes to dust, but the spirit does not die, unless it faces the second death.
    vision is not just limited to an earthly idea or thought as far as i am concerned. just because we cant measure the spirit, does not mean God will not allow those who are faithful to see that there is a substance beyond mortality & that substance of spirit/soul/life is real.
    you make it sound as if the soul of man goes back to dust in this post.
     
  15. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    right. that is what i see too.:)
     
  16. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    this is an interesting take also. i am not sure what to say because you put into words i have never heard before, but i cant say that i see anything wrong with this analogy. i especially like the Divine Nature Activated, in us, which started at pentecost AND, that can now take place for us if we seek it, because of Jesus.:)

    i know there is a passage later that talks of moses being faithful in all his 'house', but Jesus 'built' the house & receives more honor. (paraphrased)
    elijah & elisha i still do not understand, but i know it will come to me someday.
    i also agree that Jesus brought peace to both our flesh & our spirit or i should say, peace while we are in the flesh, through the spirit.
    pretty neat stuff.
     
  17. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    did not jesus say that no man has gone to heaven?

    Who was the first to ascend to this "lofty abode" of our heavenly Father? His beloved Son, Jesus Christ. He said: "No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13) This clearly shows that no human had gone to heaven. But Jesus promised that some humans would go there. Just before he ascended to heaven, he said to his faithful disciples: "I am going my way to prepare a place for you . . . and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be."—John 14:2, 3.

     
  18. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    i dont see what that has to do with this. there are miracles & splendor that happens all the time in the scriptures.
    heaven is a place as well as a condition.
    you have said yourself many times that man was created to live forever. so, at what point then, does man not become immortal & after God makes him?
    only the flesh is mortal as far as i can see, otherwise man would not be a man & he would be a spirit being only 'like' that of angels & God himself.

    here is what i have for transfigure & for vision:

    3339 metamorphoo met-am-or-fo'-o from 3326 and 3445; to transform (literally or figuratively, "metamorphose"):--change, transfigure, transform.

    3705 horama hor'-am-ah from 3708; something gazed at, i.e. a spectacle (especially supernatural):--sight, vision.
     
  19. Arizona

    Arizona Established Member

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    Hi Bandit,

    I was not raised in church. My family were not "religious" at all. Im not even sure if they were athiets at the time. Anyway, when I was 13 Father told me who Jesus was in such a way I could never deny Him. Since then I have been mainly led by His Spirit and when I read I just ask Him what things mean. I went to church later on in life a bit but didnt really feel like I belonged there. So we just go solo a lot.

    Have a nice rest of your evening. I havent had the opportunity to be on the forums today because of puter problems at work. Hope I can interact more tomorrow.

    :)
     
  20. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    that is neat. i was feeling something different & special so that is why i had to ask & i appreciate you sharing that:)
    some of the things you have been saying are things i got between the ages of 5 & 12 in church & you are bringing those great memories back for me.
    i am glad you joined CR.
     

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