The Transfiguration

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Arizona, Dec 4, 2005.

  1. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    well i feel that it does have a bearing ,because Jesus always spoke truth ,and he says that no man had gone to heaven ,so moses and Ilijah were not in heaven the immortality of the human soul is not a bible teaching and the spirit that goes back to God when we die is the force that activates the cells it is like electricity, with out elecricity we have no power we do not have a shadowy thing inside of us that goes back to God , but it is only God who can ressurrect us again . and when the time comes for the earthly resurrection moses and Ilijah will be resurreced on to a paradise earth . the 144,000 who will rule in heaven with Jesus did not start to be chosen untill 32C,E, so moses and Ilijah were not really in heaven , it was a vision, and moses and Ilijah forshadowed the remnent of the 144,000 on the earth ,at the time that Jesus came into his glory in the heavens in 1914 that is what it means for today
    the vision of Jesus transfigured was a foretaste of Christ’s coming in Kingdom power and glory, eventually to judge mankind

    In fact, toward the close of the first century C.E., John recorded further visionary glimpses of Jesus in heavenly glory.—Revelation 1:12-20; 14:14; 19:11-16 that is not to say that they did not see the vision ,they did just as John did when he wrote the book of revelation but it was a vision it was not acually moses and Ilijah in heaven at that time

     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    We have to be careful not to confuse the temporal and the eternal here. No man goes to heaven except through the Son - but the Son is coeternal with the Father - past, present and future are all one with God: In God there is only 'now'.

    Christ's Passion and Resurrection was in this sense a temporal event, but in its accomplishment the gates of heaven are opened in eternity, so from that moment of his accomplishment, the 'effect' reaches forwards and backwards in time - because 'time' is a condition of material being.

    Thus Moses and Elijah are in Heaven because of the Sacrifice of the Cross which is prefigured in the Transfiguration. If such is not the case then the event would have occurred in a garden, a valley, or in the desert - but on a mountain has its obvious symbolic significance.

    St Maximus the Confessor in the 6th century spoke of Moses and Elijah representing the Law and the Prophets - Transcendance and Immanence - and his rainment which became white as snow is the Spirity illuminating the clothes as the word of Scripture is itself a 'body' - so then His body, in eternity the Body which is Scripture, and in times to come the Mystical Body as spoken of by St Paul.

    Christ can be as 'present' to the past as He can be 'present' now.

    With God, everything is possible.

    Thomas
     
  3. Arizona

    Arizona Established Member

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    Mee,

    Can you elaborate on this for me please?

    Thanks !
     
  4. Arizona

    Arizona Established Member

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    Thank you Bandit. I have been told that before but not sure what it all means yet. But I know the Day is approaching and is here now... It wont be long Brother.

    Much Love !
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    with no religious upbringing...and this sounds like a sit down/one conversation. Your father must have been quite eloquent and succinct. That is one conversation worth remembering....of course the result is beneficial, I mean the words.
     
  6. Arizona

    Arizona Established Member

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    Just in case, I didnt mean my biological father I meant Father God.

    Yes it was and it was clear and confident. What He told me was this, He said, He (Jesus) is everything He says that He is and He will do everything He said He was going to do. I think there is something very deeply burried in my heart that will still see this manifest even more fully. I think there was a promise He made me that I dont remember but it was very personal and precious to me and in this world I will need to remember it. I knew from that point on with no doupt that Jesus was alive and His Son. The mere statements of this will never reveal what this really means or His nature. Lots of dogmas surround this but someday people will understand the simplicity of Him and what Father really did for the sonship.

    Peace !
     
  7. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Actually the Bible states that Jesus said "No man comes to the Father but through the Son." We also know that Elijah was taken to the Father before dying, hence must assume that he went through the Son. We also know that Enoch walked with God 42 years and was taken up (again, it must have been through the Son).

    We also know the author of the Gospel of John, is not the same author of Revelations. They were two different people. John would have been close to 100 years old, and man's life span was limited (on the best days) to three score and 10 back then.

    Also the putting on of immortality by the human soul or spirit is biblical, as I clearly pointed out in my previous post. Granted it is through the Grace of God, but none the less it is fact (according to scripture).

    Physics teaches us succinctly that energy cannot be destroyed nor created...only changed. When the life force leaves the body, it does not disappear. That energy has to go somewhere, or it remains as potential, vs. kinetic. Also, if God knew us before we were stitched together in the womb, why not after we have left our shell? We also know that the body never truly dies. Oh as in of itself it ceases to function, but it provides nutrients (eventually) for other life. And individual cells within a body can continue to live for decades (so far), after the collective form fails.

    Life force is much different than electricity. In fact I think it a much higher form of energy than electricity. We can keep a body alive almost indefinitely today, but can't put the life force that occupied it back in.

    I will not debate on theological issues not biblical to me. How the choosing of the 144,000 went from the time of revelation's tribulation (which totals seven years, after the Holy Spirit departs the Earth), to 32 AD and the coronation of Jesus in 1914, was determined is definitely not obvious in the bible (not the one I use). The 144,000 are chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel...and we only know where two of them actually are. We also know they are virgin males.

    In the mean time, me and mine will try to serve the Lord. ;)

    my thoughts

    v/r

    Q
     
  8. TexLittlefield

    TexLittlefield Apocalyptic Tourist

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    The "church" existed before Pentecost.

    Foe example , they had Holy Spirit power prior to Pentecost (Matt. 10:5,
    19,20)

    Christ spoke of his disciples as a “flock” prior to Pentecost (Luke 12:32;
    Matt. 26:31,32). The church is identified as the “flock” of God (Acts
    20:28,29; 1 Pet. 5:2,3).

    The literal meaning of the word church (ekklesia). From ek, meaning "out"
    and kaleo meaning "to call." Jesus called out His disciples from the disciples
    of John early in His public ministry, forming the church or called-out
    "ASSEMBLY"

    Christ said He would leave His “house” on earth when He went on a “far
    journey” (ascended back unto heaven) (Mark 13: 31-37). The church is
    identified as His “house” (Heb. 3:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:15; Eph. 2:20,21; 1 Cor.
    3:16). Christ ascended prior to Pentecost (Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11).

    They [us] had been in existence [companied with us] “from the baptism
    of John” (Acts 1:21,22).

    Christ sang in His church prior to Pentecost (Mark 14:26; in fulfillment of
    Psalm 22:22; see Heb. 2:12).

    And finally.....There is NO Scripture anywhere to indicate that the church
    began at Pentecost.
     
  9. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    some of what you say is true but i disagree with most of what you are saying. it started with 12, then 120 & it says on pentecost there were about 3000 souls added to the church & that is on Pentecost.
    if you are trying to tell me Jesus could have a church prior to his death burial & reusrrection, then you are sadly mistaken & you completely toss out the blood of Jesus for salvation.
    the entire gospel, faith & hope of the Church (that is capital C) is built on the death burial & resurection of Jesus Christ.
    Jesus could not have a body & a bride until after his death burial resurrection.

    Unless you feel the disciples & you can bypass that & obtain salvation in another way?
    Jesus goes first, his sheep follow him. No blood, no salvation, no church.

    Thou art Peter, upon this rock will I build my church (paraphrase)

    you should also know there is a difference between a disciple and an apostle.
    If Jesus had not gone to Calvary, there would be no 'C'hurch reguardless of his minsitry prior.
    i think you should reconsider the timing of events & get your building blocks straight.
     
  10. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    well ,without going off track for this thread , briefly Jesus came into kingly power right on time and inline with bible chronology and prophecy at the end of the appointed times of the nations (end of the gentile times) and 1914 was the end of the gentile times and he was the one with the legal right to the davidic throne .Jerusalem was always the place where a king represented God but from 607B.C.E. to 1914 C.E there was no king on Jehovahs throne to represent him , but in 1914 Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom not in earthly Jerusalem but in heaven
    But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother ..galations 4;26

    Jesus’ miraculous transfiguration provided a foregleam of him as the enthroned King of God’s Kingdom.

     
  11. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    i think i agree with that view on the transfiguration as a foregleam of the glory of God & Jesus enthroned as King.

    with all due respect Mee, you know how you tell us not to believe in man made doctrines? & only believe what the bible says?
    well, this 1914 doctrine & Jesus taking the throne at that time is a man made doctrine. not sure when man made it, but i am guessing sometime during or after 1914.
    if the time of gentile is over, then i guess all gentiles in these times dont have a chance or all the people before 1914 had no access to the Father.
    i think Jesus took the throne at the time the bible says so, not man made doctrine time.
    ..and i dont need to see Heb 1:8 & Psalm 45 for a debate.:)
     
  12. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    1914 date





    But 1914 isn’t a man made doctrine, it is in the bible if you know where to look!



    Jerusalem represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on the throne of the kingship of Jehovah. But that was lost when Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E. So as from 607 B.C.E. there was no king to represent Gods kingdom on earth. A period of time started then that Jesus later called the appointed times of the nations or the times of the gentiles Luke 21:24 KJV during these appointed times God did not have a government to represent his rulership in the earth.



    At the end of these appointed times of the nations God was to give the power to rule to the one who has the legal right Ezekiel 21:26-27 says…



    This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’



    After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone.



    Ok now we have got a starting point now we have to find out how long it would be until the one with the legal right would be enthroned? In Daniel there is a prophecy that covers this subject, it talks about a tree representing Gods rulership that would be cut down and banded or not allowed to grow until seven times passed over it. (As we all probably know this was fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar but applies in this context in a greater fulfillment)



    All we have to do now is find out how long the seven times are. In Revelation chapter 12 verses 6 and 14 we learn that 1,260 days are equal to a time (that is one time) and times (that is 2 times) and half a time. That is a total of 31/2 times. Are you with me so far :) . So (a time) would be equal to 360 days. So seven times would be 7 x 360 or 2,520 days, now if we count a day for a year according to a bible rule in (Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6) then the seven times equal 2,520 years. If we count 2,520 years from October 607 we come to October 1914, this is the year that the appointed times ended and he that had the right (Jesus Christ) began to rule as king of Gods heavenly Kingdom.



    Two lines of evidence actually point to that year: (1) Bible chronology and (2) the events since 1914 in fulfillment of prophecy. But we have gone off track a bit so we will leave that for another thread.

     
  13. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    well, i knew that was coming.

    um, it is a man made doctrine. just because you choose to believe that way does not make it, not a man made doctrine.
    everything is in the bible if you know where to look, anyone can make anything they want to make out of the bible. good grief.:)
     
  14. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    the bible is an amazing book of prophecy, and it is more than coincidence that it all harmonizes ,and for us in these last days it is unfolding infront of our eyes,(if) we have the eye of understanding:)
     
  15. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    yes the bible is a masterpiece of prophecy & more than just prophecy.

    by (if) do you mean:

    your institution & its man made doctrines are the only ones who have an eye of understanding?
    i know that is not what you mean is it?

    see, i dont have written doctrines to pass around because i feel the bible is just that all by itself, without all the extra writing man made doctrines attached.:)

    just so you know, this conversation is not a doctrine, it is only a conversation.
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    sure it does. It makes it true for that person. Just like one's belief in Jesus or in God, or in Krishna makes it true for them. Where we constantly have battles is that that doesn't make it so for all of us.

    We chose to believe the world was flat, and that was fine. Then we chose it to be round, and ..... now it is sort of a squished egg, the poles don't stay where their supposed to compasses fluctuate in certain areas. As we gain 'knowledge' those that choose to accept it move forward with it. But what is true for the Amish, the Quaker, the Shaker, or the Witness is true for them, but doesn't have to be true for me. That is the joy, it is the same for the Wiccan, the Hindu, the Scientist, the Catholic or the Baptist...what they choose to believe does make it so....for them.

    Let us revel in it, rejoice in it. You think you look good in purple, I think I look hideous, whether you think I am an infidel or a terrorist is your belief and true for you. One person's religion is a cult to another doesn't make either of the wrong.... gotta love it.

    Free beer tomorrow. The sign can be true every day. Because tomorrow is always tomorrow.

    namaste,
     
  17. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    i agree. the problem is when people use these doctrines that they feel are true for them to try & make others believe the same way & if you dont then you are wrong. some institutions do that more than others.

    & i agree, it does not make it so for all of us.:)
    a belief is a belief.
     
  18. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

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    hey Mee, I have one more question for you in your 1914 doctrine.
    then i will be done with this.

    if Jesus has only been on the throne for less than one hundred years, then in your doctrine, what was he doing between his resurrection & 1914?
    just like standing at the right hand of God doing nothing?
    or what?

    & what verse was that, that shows Jesus had to wait?

    if it is possible to make brief that is appreciated.
    thank you in advance.:)
     
  19. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    not sure what you mean by passing around written doctrines, it took me ages to write that , knowing me i have left some inportant bit out but it seems to make sense to me , it certainly comes to the right date at the end of the gentiles oh well , maybe it is not the time for you to see. :) and yes it is all bible based
     
  20. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    To believe the end time prophecies of the bible one must take the whole bible literally. How else are you going to accurately predict what each prophecy means. What is symbolism and what is literal is always going to be in question till the prophecy comes to be fulfilled. Whats intereting to me is that one group of ppl can say what is fact and what is supposition. Take for example the term Israel... Some believe that Israel literally means Israel.. another group of ppl take that to mean something other than the Jews. The bible is always clear on who Israel is all the way through.. so who gets to decide whats fact and whats supposition?

    I myself choose to take it all literally.. I believe that will lessen my error margin greatly. :)
     

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