a biblical prophecy!

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by _Z_, Jan 13, 2006.

  1. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    This topic came up at another forum – I thought you may be interested! Thanks to justinian for original post – it confounded me!



    Often in the letters of Paul there are references to Christ eventually being worshipped by the Gentiles (in this case, the Roman Empire, Europe, et cetera). This isn't so extroardinary, but what is, is what Paul is quoting in Isaiah. Bear with me, atheists and agnostics, what I am about to address is a very interesting thing about the Old Testament, addressed to those who dismiss every part of the Bible as rubbish.




    QUOTE (Isaiah 11:10)

    In that day, the Root of Jesse [Jesus for those who don't know] will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him [the nations referring to the Gentiles].



    Isaiah is saying that all the Gentiles will worship Jesus Christ, a theme generally followed by most Old Testament "prophets" and many New Testament authors, writing in the first or second century AD.

    Now listen to this: Isaiah was a prophet writing in the 7th century BC, when the Babylonians were conquering Israel. Isaiah prophesied that, as the Jewish religion looked as if it would be annihilated by the Babylonians, all the Gentiles would soon follow the religion of the "Root of Jesse", which happens to be Jesus. Nearly a millenium before Constantine, Isaiah predicted Christianity, an off branch of Judaism, would one day be the religion followed by all "Gentiles", Europe.

    Paul reaffirms this in his own writings in the first century, when Christianity was specifically persecuted and its chances of becoming state religion for Rome almost nil. It was underground, Christians were persecuted and killed if their faith was discovered.

    That's point one - around nine hundred years before Constantine Isaiah prophesied what would happen.

    Point two:




    QUOTE (Isaiah 21:2 @ addressing Babylon)

    Elam, attack! Media, lay siege! [...] They set the tables, they spread the rugs, they eat, they drink! Get up, officers, oil your shields [get ready to fight][...] Babylon has fallen, Babylon has fallen!

    .

    In case you were too busy tuning out "Christian" (read: Isaiah lived six hundred years before Christ) indoctrination, Isaiah states that as the Babylonians are having a bit of a party, the Elamites and Medes (read: PERSIANS) will attack and occupy Babylon.

    A hundred years later at least, the Persians attacked Babylon during a feast and captured it.

    If everything in the Bible is rubbish, including the Old Testament, and there is no God and no divine influence, and Isaiah did not have a time machine because there is no way to go forward in time, how the **** was he able to guess such ridiculous things - that Babylon, great empire, would be destroyed by the Persians during a feast? That Christianity/Judaism, a very small and unimportant religion in a very small part of the world, would one day be the religion adopted by most of the known world? How did Isaiah write such accurate prophecies without even using cloak-and-dagger techniques like a certain other "prophet", Nostradamus?

    And before you say the Mafia known as the Catholic Church edited Isaiah to fit their own ends, Isaiah is a Jewish book. It is in the haf-Torah. Every copy of the Torah is meticulously copied, letter for letter, of the next, and thus all are identical; all have these sections of Isaiah. These sections of Isaiah are also in the Dead Sea scrolls.

    Furthermore, the oldest copy of Isaiah predates Christ and Christianity by a century (the Isaiah Scroll) and states nearly the exact same thing as most copies of the Torah. The Torah could not have been edited by Christians, and the Torah is meticulously copied (even more so then the Koran) by Jewish scholars who specialise in that copying, and it has been copied in that way since Moses started writing.


    The text could not have been edited by Christians!!!
     
  2. InChristAlways

    InChristAlways New Member

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    Good post Z. I like to think of the Book of Isaiah as the Hebrew/Christian New Testament. I always felt that if one were to "harmonize" all 4 gospels and Paul's epistles, you would almost essentially have the Book of Isaiah. I believe it is the most important book in the whole Bible myself. Just my humble thoughts.
    Steve
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    The root of Jesse could be referring to anyone in Jesse's bloodline (I wondder how many people, what percentage of the earth that would encompass)...Christians would obviously say Jesus, and it does follow as the followers of Jesus mainly number in Gentiles...not Jews.

    There are a few prophecies in chapter 21, including at the end, where it was discussed that all this will happen within the year...
     
  4. InChristAlways

    InChristAlways New Member

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    Hi Z. Do you think this is what Zech 8:23 is saying? 10 is usually used as a "complete" number in the Bible and this shows every language of Nations following a "jewish man".
    I myself assume this is the "Christ/anointed", Jesus, but being Christian and following the Jew, Jesus, I of course would think this.
    Steve

    Zechariah 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard [that] God [is] with you." ' "
     
  5. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    Y’know I have never even read the bible from cover to cover! I do accept that some of the prophecies appear to be true; this is also true of many prophecies although I have found none as demonstrateable as this [and others in the bible according to some].

    It is easy to find contradiction and falseness but we ['I'] often forget to look for the parts/aspects that are correct! One can but continue to seek! :)

    wil




    Interesting wil! Perhaps how they saw it was different to the essential prophecy! – A little interpretation was perhaps going on there? Prophecies are often vague [apparently] and much is left open to interpretation, yet here we see the result as beyond the words of the day i.e. we can see what the prophecy was saying, whereas the writer maybe could only see a glimpse of it!
     
  6. InChristAlways

    InChristAlways New Member

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    The reason I brought up that prophecy in Zech 8 was because of this passage in Ezekiel 37. Israel and Judah were split after Solomon, and while Israel [northern 10 tribes] was "put away" by God in the OT and in essence, merged with the Nations, Judah [southern 2 tribes] remained "married" and were based in Judea and Jerusalem.

    I could do a lenghthy post just on this, but God usually distinquished Judah from Israel in the prophecies. Israel is still waiting on this future fulfillment in Zeke, but it appears that happens when the "Day of the Lord" comes.

    This appears to be showing in the Christ-ian book of revelation which a topic on that can be found here if interested. Peace
    http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4433
    Steve

    Isaiah 2:12 For the Day of the LORD of hosts [Shall come] upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up -- And it shall be brought low --Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye! for at hand is the Day of Yahweh,--As a veritable destruction from the Almighty, shall it come.

    Ezekiel 37:22 "and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one King shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
     
  7. bob x

    bob x New Member

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    No, Isaiah says nothing about "worship"; like all Jews he regarded the deification of a human as a profound blasphemy.


    No, the Persians were ENEMIES of the Medes, who rebelled against them and overthrew them a generation before Babylon's fall. The Medes did attack Babylon, but failed.
     
  8. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    This I am not sure of Steve, I feel that god would consider all the peoples of this earth [and others etc.] as the bible treats ‘Israel’ i.e. to god Israel = the people of earth! I like to see things in a more universal context, but I am prepared to admit I am wrong! I also feel that ‘the day of the lord’ may come when humanity can deliver itself – its up to us to make things alright. Again just my opinion – one semi-correct prophecy does not change the whole meaning, it does however give weight to the teachings. I am also unsure if Christ was the prophet that the jews were looking for – they appear to have wanted someone who would defeat the roman empire etc, but of course the romans were part of the plan eh!
     
  9. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    Hi bobx,



    I agree, but wasn’t Christ not a human i.e. god! Hmm nah I cannot agree with that idea.





    Interesting –more please! :)
     
  10. InChristAlways

    InChristAlways New Member

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    Hi bob. What is the difference between worshipping and following. Another words, Zeke 37 mentions a "King" being over all, do we worship that King or His words of obedience through Love and Peace or both. There are of course the problems of Translations among the jews and christ-ians.

    Don't we become as "gods" because of the eternal life promised by the Christ Jesus? I am actually a little confused on that myself. Any thoughts on that?
    Steve

    zekiel 37:22 "and I will make themone nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one King shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
     
  11. InChristAlways

    InChristAlways New Member

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    Hi Z. The day of the Lord is mentioned numerous times in the Bible and that is usually in apocalyptic symbolic language that the hebrews/jews would understand.. The last time it is mentioned in the christian Bible is here. Depends on how you view the book of revelation and why I like to bring it up so much.
    Steve

    Reve 16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, [which] go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great Day of God Almighty.
     
  12. brucegdc

    brucegdc Moderator

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    Moved to Christianity area

    Not appropriate for Belief & Spirituality.

    ... Bruce
     
  13. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    Brucegdc, hi

    I put it here because I wanted it questioned! If it cannot be falsified then it is very much the more interesting.



    InChristalways :p

    Do you think the Jews have a monopoly on spirituality and prophecy then? I believe that god has spoken in many ways and tongues! Christ ‘may’ well have been gods voice on earth – so were/are many others! I don’t believe that Hebrews [dualists!] are more advanced than anyone else like Buddhists, Hindu’s, Baha’I or druids etc. this way of seeing things kinda limits the bible to a Hebrew book of wisdom for Hebrews – don’t you think?
     
  14. InChristAlways

    InChristAlways New Member

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    Hi Z. No "religion" has a "monopoly" on those that I know of. The Christ/anointed was Judah/Israel's redeemer and King according to the OT prophecies.

    For example, I cannot get the jews to answer my questions concerning Daniel 12. I have my own "scriptural" view of revelation and Daniel concerning the OC Nations of Israel and Judah, and as an example, I don't even see "gentiles" mentioned in this prophecy. :confused:

    What is your view on this or I could start a topic just on Daniel 12 if you like? Thanks.
    Steve

    Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a Nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time Your People shall be saved/escape, Every one who is found written in the book.

    Luke 21:22
    "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon This People.
     
  15. _Z_

    _Z_ from far far away

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    inchristalways - i hope you didnt mind my little name pun 'in cristal ways' :p :)




    You could and I am sure it will be interesting, although you can add it here if you feel it is relevant. I haven’t picked up a bible in years – so you would need to fill me in on the meaning of your Daniel 12 ‘question’ – in English please – so we all may understand! [sorry I find biblical language hard to understand – not its meaning when described well]



    Btw do you see Christ as a liberator of the Hebrews or of the world? I can see how the Hebrews considered themselves as the centre of existence – as all peoples probably did in those days, but is the message not greater than all that? In particular, is god speaking to everyone even us here now learning his prophecy? That is to say: ‘gods wisdom transcends tribe or creed and all individuals across time’!



    Thanx - richard
     
  16. InChristAlways

    InChristAlways New Member

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    In my view, any religion that follows the command of God to Love others and be in Peace and Harmony are "prophets/children" of God. This is why I find other religions beliefs so fascinating as a lot of the beliefs are also in our own Bible. I just happen to read the Bible a lot and never really grow tired of it or of trying to "Harmonize" it. We are a "type" of Isaiah in some ways and why I love reading that Book a lot. Peace.
    Steve

    Isaiah 49:6 And He saith, `It hath been a light thing That thou art to Me for a servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And the preserved of Israel to bring back, And I have given thee for a light of nations, To be My salvation unto the end of the earth.'

    Christ-ians believe in the anointed one of God sent to bring Salvation and Eternal Life to the loss of the world as prophecied in the book of Malachi.
    [size=+2]
    [/size]Acts 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'[size=+2] "[/size]
     

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