liberal vs. literal Christian

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by wil, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,720
    Likes Received:
    2,458
    I don't know if the terms are correct. It is apparent that I am deemed a liberal Christian if not heretical, blasphemous one by many.

    But I think, and I am biased that my view of Christianity is often times has more personal requirements than most.

    We have discussed the Jeffersonian Gospels and the omition of virgin birth, resurection, diety of Jesus, etc...

    I can accept that and have it not hurt my belief system or biblical thought at all. Even if it was proved, shown due to historical/archeological evidence that 95% of the biblical historical data were wrong, misinterpretted or even made up....wouldn't affect that I see value in the words that are attributed to Jesus.

    It is said often that you can't pick and choose which scripture to accept and which to interpret metaphysically rather than historically.... but it seems even the literalists do. Again I think of all the wars that Christians have fought in, all the atrocities that have been committed by churches and Christians (I'm not singling us out, we are not alone, but we do supposedly believe in the new testament). And then I think of love your enemy, offer him your coat, judge not less ye, love your neighbor....all these have to be disregarded in order to pick up arms against someone. Sure you can find other texts, if you don't have sword sell your belongings and get one...but again...in my view anytime I see a hateful G-d, or vengeful Jesus...tis time to look at the scripture metaphysically and divine the good and love out of the works...

    I think don't commit adultery means don't dilute your principles...and not committing murder includes murdering enthusiasm and creativity...in a lot of ways I read the bible to hold me to a higher standard...that is why I don't feel very liberal.

    Do I believe Jesus is my lord and saviour and died for my sins? Yes, but not in a literal sense. I believe that by learning from the way and nature of Jesus by seeing his path to becoming the Christ, by not worshipping him, but attempting to follow in loving footsteps...I can do everything he did and more...if I am able to walk the walk...and I believe when he said ye are G-ds....we are the creator and the created...masters of our destiny, brothers and sisters, children of G-d, the trinity does not exist as we are all one...
     
  2. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    0
    this sounds more like the new age religion. remove everything that is literal & substitute the teachings of other religions & not the teachings of Jesus & the apostles.
    i have noticed one thing about your postings. you make a stand for every religion & every teaching on the market, yet when it comes to those who hold to the literal life of Jesus (his literal blood that was shed for the literal remission of sins- & the death burial & resurrection, the prophets & apostles teachings & their lives...you scram & have not one good word to say about those who still believe in ALL the bible & the accounts to be accurate.
    if 95% of the bible were not true, it most certainly would effect me-however that cannot be for i have had the Holy Ghost for 33 years & it bares witness the Word.

    i do not believe in fairy tales & get very little out them & find there metaphors not nearly as inspiring as that which is literal. i also find it not very interesting when someone cannot apply the literal teachings to their literal life when they are too busy making fairy tales & illusions.

    i think the terms you are thinking of are conservative & liberal which has little to do with turning the literal events & the people of the bible into fairy tales, & in your case turning it all into a fairy tale.
    you call yourself the creator (another new age/buddha teaching) & yet you could not even begin to explain how you created yourself. you turn adultery which is cheating on your wife into your own version of 'whatever'.
    you turn murdering your brother into murdering someones art work.

    this is what happens when you turn the scriptures into a fairy tale. this is a big issue with people today, & metaphors mean nothing because there is never anything literal attached...just fairy tales & myths in a fairy tale world. everything becomes meaningless because Cinderalla & Snowhite never existed. or did they?

    what do you take more seriously Wil??
    1)a REAL tornado that slams into your house or a pretend wizard of oz fairy tale tornado that never happened?

    2) a Real train slamming into you or a pretend train running you over?

    3) a real person stabbing you with a real knife or a fairy tale knife stabbing you?

    4) do you give your children REAL medical attention or do you just metaphor their illness & play Doctor? or better yet - they just never get sick & you feed the them metaphors instead of literal medication...of course that would be 'literal metaphors'

    this is what people like to do with the bible - remove all the miracles & you end up with a completely different version...
    Jack planted 3 pretend beans a pretend beanstalk grew.

    so, when the bible says love the Lord thy God with all your heart...what that really means is love yourself because there is no literal God.
    5)now what religion teaches that? Did Jesus teach literal things or fairy tales?

    6)are you doing greater things than Jesus did? are you able to raise yourself from the literal dead? or do you raise yourself from a fairy tale dead?
    what is there to do that is 'greater' if the whole bible is a fairy tale?

    this is a real world, not fairy land. i have met very few people who take the bible as a fairy tale & get the metaphor applied to their lives correctly.

    thou shall not kill...literally means thou literally shall not literally kill. literally.

    trying to get into the trinity & different Godhead doctrines- if people want to believe in the trinity then they should be allowed to believe in it . if people dont want to believe in it, then dont believe in it.
    telling others who believe in something, that it never happened or did not exist- you have a long way to go my brother before you can prove it never happened. kind of reminds me of the recent Jesus was never crucified thread that just went through here last week.

    i have 6 questions there...would you mind answering them Wil?
     
  3. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    0
    now that i am thinking on this...did Jesus teach faith?
    or did he teach mythical faith?

    did Jesus speak of the prophets as fairy tales?
    or did Jesus teach literal application to our literal lives from their literal school of hard knocks?
     
  4. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,642
    Likes Received:
    6
    In the words of the poet, T.S. Elliot:
    For last year's words belong to last year's language and next year's words await another voice. (And to make an end is to make a beginning.)”
    One question for you Bandit, and I'm not being tongue in cheek. I mean this literally and directly: Was not Aesop surely one of the wisest men who ever lived? :confused:

    Actually
    , one more question. If everything's so darn literal ... then why so many parables? Are those meant to be swallowed whole, word for word, as factual events? Why not just spit it out? Why mince words? What did Christ have to say about that?

    Just curious .... :)

    Peace ...


    andrew
    :)
     
  5. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    0
    i do not see just parables. i see an entire line of righteous seed that connects to Jesus & the blood of Jesus Christ which literally washes the sins of man.


    just because you reject the blood of Christ does not mean i do.
    i am real sick of people making a mockery out of the bible, Christians & what they believe.
    i do not take any of this as funny.
     
  6. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,906
    Likes Received:
    0
    I understand what you are saying, Wil, in terms of others' perceptions of you. I've found it somewhat amusing that I'm considered a faithful Christian by some and a heretic by others. The bottom line is that it is between me and God, and their faith is between them and God. I do know I genuinely seek after God (and so I am told I will find) and that I try hard, and that's enough for me. I know my relationship with Christ is real, and it has continued to make differences in my life.

    I think what is important (for me) is to distinguish between my faith and my beliefs. My faith is my intentional and conscious seeking after God, day after day trying to "die to myself" so that I have room in my soul for Christ to live in me, being with God and giving Him praise for the gift of my life and His love, and praying that I might have a clue about what to do with myself so that I'm walking in His plan for me. My beliefs are all the concepts I have to explain my experiences and how I think the world, God, etc. works. I am keenly aware that these conceptualizations of Reality and Truth are limited, probably mostly wrong (or at least short-sighted), and influenced by my cultural upbringing. But they're the best ideas I have so far, and I'm a type whose brain just naturally wants to theorize about things. I think all that is fine as long as I acknowledge my limitations of understanding (and communication!) and I consistently strive for humility before God. I remain open-minded to what the Spirit has to give me, while clinging to Christ and His teachings for a way to winnow the wheat from the chaff in my mind.

    I suppose, then, the question is about how to interpret those teachings. I am not a literalist. I don't think even the most "literalist" of the "literalists" are indeed literalist, or much of the Bible wouldn't make sense (the parables, Song of Solomon, etc.). We all have to try to decide where we draw the line based on our guidance by the Holy Spirit and, for some of us, study of the scriptures. I do think study is helpful because it aids us from breaking free of cultural assumptions we may carry that are not in alignment with Jesus' Jewish culture, religion, and historical time period. But I also think, as a mystic, that some people can be entirely illiterate and still know truth from Jesus' teachings. Ah, the mystery of the various ways God reveals Himself!

    Whether or not we accept the Bible as an infallible document, I think, is less important than whether we are reading and studying the scriptures with the Spirit by our side. Because no matter what we think, if we have faith like a child, and we genuinely seek, God promises to guide us.

    As for conservative vs. liberal... what a mess those two words mean. Are the Episcopalians liberal because of their overall beliefs about ethics in modern society, or are they conservative because they are one of the older denominations and stick to the original creeds, liturgies, etc.? Are the new mega-churches conservative because they are predominantly pro-life and believe the Bible is literal and infallible, or are they liberal because many of them follow practices that have modernized (and perhaps even diluted) traditional rituals such as communion? No one would call an Amish person liberal, yet I've known many Christians who don't consider them Christian. Why not? I guess because they are strange and isolated- but that just makes them less American, not less Christian. The tangled webs of culture and religion... And what of the person like me, who is relatively conservative for myself (in the sense of ethics, separating culture and religion, striving to get at the traditional, original meaning of the teachings and the church) but is quite liberal for others (in the sense that I recognize I just don't know a whole lot and refuse to judge what is right for others, as well as being open to what I might gain from other scriptural texts and traditions, provided they do not contradict the teachings of the Bible)?
     
  7. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,172
    Likes Received:
    444
    Great post, path!

    You said it better than I could.

    Some of the best Christians I have had the pleasure of knowing in my life fit this very description.

    Yep. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't have a clue. Isn't G-d awesome!!!
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,720
    Likes Received:
    2,458
    Namaste Bandit, you asked me point blank in another post what I believe and then lambast me for answering?

    I have no issues with the various denominations of Christians. I've been in many churches, listened to many Reverands, Ministers, Preachers and Priests. I've also explored some of the other religions and listened in their temples and mosques...some follow whatever their parents rose them up in, some follow what they can tolerate, and others go to whatever resonates the most with them.

    I don't have a problem with those that litterally interpret the bible, or any path, it is your choice, but do you really feel the need to beat me up because I don't.
    that is so disconcerting as Jesus spoke eloquently and often in parables...and said so
    silly question, but you know that, but that doesn't mean I can't learn from the prodigal son.
    again, the story of Jonah, despite it being a political op/ed piece that got cannonized, its satirical look at the situation provides valuable insight.
    again, the parable of the talents is useful financial information as well as useful paradigm in how we should spend our time with spirit.
    Very interesting one, herbs and nutrition and I use techniques of hands on/off healing similar to Reiki, KiGong, you know some of the methods that Jesus utilized, the power of positive thought and such, I was taught by a former Asst. Surgeon General under C. Everett Koop who truly believes Jesus taught him this in his sleep, as during his career in the public health service, even when he headed the service for the Indian Reservations, he derided and disbelieved the power of herbs, chants, sage, crystals, and the medicine men....he has grown, opened his eyes, and he thanks Jesus. Yes my kids do get medical help, not as often as most, as much can be avoided.
    Miracles are natural. I believe it is a misnomer. Like flight would be a fantasy to most not so long ago, as would cell phones and television...and this internet...eventually more of us will realize the gifts that have been provided and come to understand and utilize our power to do exactly what our egos have built with technology...by bringing these back into the realm of acceptablity we will eventually realize we had the capability all along...as Jesus tellls us.
    Did I say the whole bible was a fairy tale? I think not. We know Genesis is metaphor, and the bible is full of parables and stories....all extremely valuable in my estimation. Am I doing greater things than Jesus did, no, but he told me it was possible...and do you choose that to be a fairy tale or read it litterally? I believe it to be true. And no I don't believe in an anthropmorphic larger than life G-d built in my image sitting on throne like Zeus casting plagues, floods, and keeping the good and bad book like Santa Clause, Michaelangelo did the world and injustice by cementing that in our mind. I do believe in omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence, that G-d isn't good but is good all encompassig. That G-d doesn't love, but is love, unconditional. That G-d is spirit, that the kingdom is in our midst, that the nature and way of Jesus(subsitute Bhudda, the Tao, Krishna etc) is the connection, our modem to all that is G-d, that we are one.

    I don't believe this is 'New Age' or 'New Thought' but rather old thought, thought that predates Jesus, but thought that Jesus our elder brother and wayshower, provided to the masses, a new understanding of the books that he studied. Leading us from darkness to light, leading us from negative attitudes to positive compassionate thought.
    I don't believe I make a mockery of the bible, I respect your right to your interpretation. Jesus gave his disciples wine and told them this is my blood, they knew it wasn't his blood, but that it represented Christ thought and nature, spiritual/heavenly understanding. He broke bread and said this is my body, I'm sorry that I don't read that litterally, I think it was bread, representing earthly ego based thought and energy. Judas got some bread, but not the wine...He was stuck in a the physical understanding and Jesus sent him off on his task.

    And I believe while everyone does not think exactly as me....I am not alone among the followers either.
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,720
    Likes Received:
    2,458
    Namaste Path...yes I struggled with the title of the thread...as the terms, liberal, literal, conservative....they are all bogus and have no basis for the vagaries and variety of thought.

    Even in the political spectrum...these terms have become useless, there were always conservative democrats and liberal republicans that went way beyond the platforms of the their respective party....and today I can't see where either has a platform...

    Interpretting teachings is what it is about...and how many denominations are out there and how much is each denomination divided?
     
  10. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    3,915
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Wil, I have a question or two. Do you believe there is anything supernatural at all, or is it all one continuum of "natural" that just proceeds beyond our sight, even though theroetically all is within our grasp? Would you classify belief in God as belief in the supernatural? If not, do you consider yourself a pantheist since God is contiguous with all His Creation?

    This is not a set up. I think God is Something More than His Creation and I think the line (or actually circle) of knowledge extends to a place we can only know by divine revelation or passage into the next life. Where we exist, here in the light, experience appears to have the duality of natural and supernatural, so for all intents and purposes the supernatural exists for us.

    I'm not sure whether in the next life the complete fullness of God is unveiled from us, or whether just His love for us is unveiled completely. Obviously my thoughts on this are imcomplete, and probably will remain so until I see through the glass clearly.

    But, I'm curious about what others think.

    peace,
    lunamoth
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,720
    Likes Received:
    2,458
    Namaste Lunamoth

    Supernatural...beyond natural? G-d is all there is...omnipresence. Is G-d beyond what we can see and understand, I think yes. But is G-d beyond all there is...seems to me, that simply expands all there is.

    I'm not trying to be simplistic, however what could be beyond what is, without becoming what is once exposed.

    Seems quantum physics, or quantumetaphysics say the deriders is expanding into the realm of what is the supernatural that religions suppose. When one places their hand on the body or in the realm of the etheric body and lives from a state of love and compassion, not my will but thy will, changes are made, removing the 'sting' of the bee, atoms and molecular structure are miraculously modified. Autopsies show numerous diseases and cancers that the body endured and healed during ones life...miraculous, supernatural, I think not.

    pan·the·ism n.
    1. A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena.
    2. Belief in and worship of all gods.
    I am not as educated as many here, I had to look it up. Do I believe in and worship all gods...no...I believe in one G-d, and yes I believe 'love the Lord thy God with all your heart' also ties with loving thy neighbor as thyself, as one cannot truly love another until they love themselves. And seeing and loving the Christ, the light of G-d in another is impossible until you can see it in yourself (and the obverse is true, that when you cannot see the light in others(all others), it is because you have dimmed your own connection).

    So the number one definition, G-d is, we are, creator and created...of all our known and unknown multiverses....yes that resonates.

    Number 2 definition I have issues with....but....I reminisce about taking a Hindu Priest back to his temple after an ecumenical service in which he expressed Jesus as a Hindu Guru or Avatar...and mentioned that Hinduism was monotheistic. On the ride home I questioned him, he believed the wise men were Hindu, he believed Jesus spent time in India during his teens... I inquired as the the monotheistic thought when and what I understood about Krishna and Shiva, and the varioius Hindu G-ds. He explained that different people saw G-d and interpretted G-d in different ways. He said to my mother I am her son, to my son I am his father, to my niece I am an uncle, to my wife I am a husband, and to you I am a priest....but it is all me, many faces and names based on varying perspectives and relationships...that was enlightening. So do I belive in all G-ds, I have to say no, but I believe in others belief of them, and that it is a true and powerful path for them.

    If in another realm or at another time 'the complete fullness of God is unveiled' can it possibly express more than exists now? Or can it just enlighten us to what we can't see at this time?

    Yes I see G-d as all there is, and see the possiblity of accessing all that knowledge and power. And no I don't see anything as supernatural, I see that as a label we put on that which have yet to understand.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,720
    Likes Received:
    2,458
    Rereading this portion of my post I realize this sounds unintentinally harsh against Judaism. While I believe the truth in the teachings of Jesus, I do know that he utilized the books of the time to gain understanding, and I believe that any could use those same books with contemplation, meditation, and dedication to G-d will find their way into the graces we refer to as heaven.

    I suppose again that this is blasphemy on my part, indicating that I respect other non-christian, non-saviour approaches to salvation.

    I apologize for any disrespect that could have been taken from my previous statement. And mean no disrespect to those that believe that they do need to save others and that Jesus is the only way, as that to is their perogative.
     
  13. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    3,915
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Wil, Thank you for your reply. Yes, that seems consistent with other thoughts you've posted here. Where my thinking differs is in that I think there is a line, or more like a veil, that covers the knowledge of God and which we will not cross in this lifetime. Thus, knowledge is one, God is one, we are one with each other and God, but due to the circumstances of our material existence (i.e., living in a fallen world), instead we percieve duality and seperateness. Thus, with respect to our life on earth, God is supernatural and when He breaks through, whether by miracles, inspirations of the heart, Scripture, visions, the Eucharist, or any other "thin place," this is a supernatural event.

    In the recesses of history the memory of one side of the circle, the circumstances of our creation, fade from view. We stand in the part of the circle illuminated by our memory, pushed forward by science, and extended by divine revelation, yet still part of the circle is and will always be dark, until we are reunited with God.

    peace,
    lunamoth

    I like the term panentheist: We live in God, and yet God remains Something More.

    peace,
    lunamoth
     
  14. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    0
    do you feel the need to beat up Christians for their beliefs? there are several posts around here of you doing so. of course you do it inside of other religions but dont think it does not go unnoticed. i think you do have issues because this topic is an issue for you to keep bringing it up. the literal virgin birth, the literal resurrection etc. etc.

    i dont see anything that says Jonah is a fairy tale or just a satire. you are welcome to see it that way. however, i dont see Jesus speaking of Jonah that way & he acknoweledges Jonah & the events as real. i think i will stick with what Jesus says about it.
    the scriptures speak of Jonah as a literal prophet who was sent to deliver a message of literal repentance to a literal city. the story of Ninevah is continued through the Old Testament as a real city.
    i understand that parables are not literal & i also understand that Jesus spoke in parables due to the fact that people are dull of hearing, because Jesus said so.


    herbs are natural. i dont see anything natural about the power of God healing & the miracles that took place in the bible & the miracles that still happen today are not just to be passed off as 'natural'. people do not want to accept the power of God & try to explain miracles as natural with some form of natural herbs, science theory & technology. we think we are just so smart today with all these wires & magnifying glasses we use. as you imply often 'we are god'.
    every breath we take is because God allows us to take it, not because we are god or a god.


    our power? we dont have any power except that which God allows us to have.
    you are entitled to make the contents of Genesis- Able, Seth, Noah, & Abraham into a fairy tale or some simple metaphor. However Jesus & the Apostles did not speak of them as a fairy tale. at some point in time there had to be a first man & a first woman on this planet. i do not see the first man & first woman of planet earth as a metaphor & Adam & Eve have just as much going as any other written story, philosophy, history or science project. i choose to believe what Paul teaches about Adam, not what others say.
    and so we remove a literal Noah & Abraham from Genises- then you must remove the literal covenants & promises that God made with Abraham & Noah & remove the literal righteous seed of Abraham...thus invoking a fairy tale that leads us to Jesus.


    New Age teaches that the bible is nothing but metaphors & that the righteous line of Seth to Jesus is not literal. i do not believe that for a second.
    Jesus taught to eat his body & drink his blood (the bread & wine being symbolic of his body & blood) for the rememberance of him. thus we do it to remember him. There are many many many MANY meanings behind this.
    Jesus gave them wine & bread as Jesus taught that his blood is for the remission of sins.
    1) Wil, do you believe the literal blood of the literal Jesus Christ is for the literal remission of sin?
    it think it is quite obvious that bread is a metaphor for his body as is the written Word a metaphor for spiritual bread that we literally eat with our literal spirit. i do not view Jesus as JUST another man or just another teacher. He is alive & living in the hearts of men & women & children.
    Simply because people take the bible in its literal sense of the people, places & events does not make their understanding of inner meanings & two & three fold meanings any less than those who make it JUST another good book of fiction & profess some outstanding revelations that goes beyond those who see the literal events in the scriptures as well. i have acknowledged you & i would appreciate the same acknowledgment.

    there are about 4 billion people who dont believe in the bible & it is no suprize to me that others view it as fiction. there is a huge attempt today to discredit the scriptures & remove them from the planet. i do not see you doing that.

    i dont expect you to think exactly like me. But i want you to understand something here...the entire plot & the main theme of all that is written in the New Testament is the literal death, burial & resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ & that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world & that love that was displayed by Jesus laying down his life & eternal life given to all those who will receive it.

    Other religions gladly & happily reject this as truth. Christians do not reject Jesus as the Lamb of God & the Messiah.
    How anyone can read the NT or any book for that matter & miss the the plot is beyond me.

    thank you for this meeting.
     
  15. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    3,915
    Likes Received:
    0
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,720
    Likes Received:
    2,458
    As this is a thread I started regarding my belieifs and the breadth and scope of what is called Christianity...you are more than welcome to call me on the carpet on any specifics where I "beat up Christians for their beliefs". I will be more than happy to either apologize or try to correct your perception of the meaning of what I wrote depending on the circumstance. As I answered your original question and your 6 followup questions as truthfully and honestly as I could, I'm sure you'll do me the honor of indicating where I beat you up so mercilessly.
    It is my understanding he spoke in parables and the bible is written with metaphor and allegory for two smilar reasons...Jesus had to concern himself with 'the law' and the literal dogmatic interpretations of scripture of those that were out to oppose his teachings....so he spoke in story form, not just because stories resonate more with an audience than dull explanations, but for self preservation. And the bible stories again are also to resonate with the reader, to be within the realm of acceptability, something the common reader can relate to and as you indicated discern many levels of meaning depending on their current circumstance and understanding. The knowledge and understanding of this in no way dilutes the word in my mind.



    I do not wish to impose my beliefs on anyone, I do appreciate the right to express them, and your right to disagree with them. I love the variety of beliefs and believe them to be true to those individuals who absorb them into their life. But do object to anyone indicating that they have the one and only way for everyone, something I need to work on.

    Now I do believe that every breath we take and every power we have, natural or supernatural as defined by others is because of our inherent relationship with G-d, tis obvious when I believe in omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. That I extend the equation from Jesus being son of G-d, we being children of G-d, we being brothers and sisters of Jesus, Jesus and the Father being one G=J=F=S=b=s=all one is an issue, it isn't my issue.

    The fact that what I glean from masters and doctoral level theology students, information that is taught in Judaic, Jesuit, Christian, Catholic institutes of higher learning regarding the metaphors, myths, allegory, analogies contained in scripture differs from conventional concepts is expected. Doesn't mean I believe all I read, or that I will stop studying, asking questions and hopefully growing and learning.


    Luna so the only way to cross the veil is through a physical death? No understanding in this lifetime is possible? I like panentheist as well. I think it true that until we cross into the next phase...or remember all the past ones, we really are playing in a land of limbo as far as understanding goes....but still see it within reach, currently not in my grasp, but within reach....
     
  17. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    3,915
    Likes Received:
    0
    bump again (due to technical problems)

    lunamoth
     
  18. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    3,915
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Wil, I was bumping the thread because I could not see you post above.

    Well, it is mere conjecture on my part that we can't cross the veil in this lifetime. I think about the experiences of the Catholic mystics, who even in their union with God through contemplative practice still insist that something is yet held back, incomplete. I also think aobut people who have had near death experiences. Have they experienced complete reunion with God? I don't know. It seems that it would be difficult to come back sane from such an experience, or perhaps it is momentarily achievable, but not sustainable.

    I also think that we can't even have "experience" unless we also have some degree of seperation from that which is being experienced.

    peace,
    lunamoth
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,720
    Likes Received:
    2,458
    I hear that!
    In meditation, and contemplation, either in the usual circumstance, ie in the silence, or in a waking walking meditative state...there have been moments of oneness, fleeting moments of understanding (that while in that moment it was an eternity, taking a trip through the interior and exterior cosmos), moments where intense insight, bliss, amazing pleasurable happiness, complete understanding...and then in the return to this plane of existence it returns to the unexplainable, words cannot convey, and then all to quickly fades back into the fog...unsustainable as it were.

    In healing work, I've been with a person for an hour...but it only took moments, completely lost in space and time, recollections of everything but the actual room and person, and then discovering the recollections the spaces I was in were the same as what was going through the clients mind..incredible moments.

    I believe with time and exercise, as the frequency of the moments increase, the time of understanding will lengthen, and the ability to express will increase as well....even if one is forced to talk in parables so others may understand...I feel for Ezekial.
     
  20. Bandit

    Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    0
    i am not going through all the threads of how you refer to christian beliefs in the past. however i will make a note of it & bring it to your attention from here on out. you do have issues with traditional christian beliefs because you have brought them up many times.

    i dont see where dogma comes from literal interpretations. it comes from people taking 3 or more scriptures & discard what does not fit into the dogma. as i have said there are many things that are black & white & there are many things that are gray. this is where i do not accept dogma that should be classified as paradox rather than absolute dogma & this is part of what seperates & makes religion.

    Jesus declared that he spoke in parables & snippets because people are dull of hearing & their hearts are waxed gross. he spoke to the disciples in depth & in private & not to the public in depth. he knew it would be waste of time speaking to the public at that time because they did not believe on him. Jesus said it- not me.
    it was the disciples who carried his message of the death burial & resurrection to the world after they were filled with the Holy Ghost & after Jesus rose from the grave. i dont think you are following it all the way through & appear to have to meet some other requirements instead of just the scriptures & what Jesus taught.

    i think you are trying to mix & match other religions & different leaders into what Jesus taught & Jesus taught you cannot do that. i do not chase people around in circles to analyse ever detail of their beliefs. but i do know when the blood of Jesus is being rejected because that is what other religions choose to exclude. even though Jesus taught that is why he layed down his life. the death burial & resurrection of the Lord Jesus-once again is the foundation. if you remove that then you are into a different religion.
    dont know what else to say.
     

Share This Page