Respectful questions on a difficult subject

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Scarlet Pimpernel, Mar 19, 2006.

  1. Ella S.

    Ella S. Gnostic Christian

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    Consumerism and corporatism in general are toxic and corrosive, but once you add hedonism on top of that, it doesn't become less toxic. On the contrary, it becomes more efficiently toxic. Get the population addicted to sex, normalize being driven by those impulses, and they will buy anything advertised next to a supermodel in a bikini.
     
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  2. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Of course the orgiastic bath-house culture can't be compared with quiet couples of any sexual orientation? It's deep water?

    Advertisers will use whatever works
     
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  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    What is sexual deviance other than something I would not do?

    Plenty of old paintings and sketches to know that this has all been around and memorialized in literature from long before.our time.

    Sex to me is like eating...different tastes for different folks....we need it to survive... We surely dont need an omelette or French toast but every now and then something different is fun..

    It doesnt matter whether it is sex or building a house....there is the minimum requirement for shelter and procreation... But some want a pool, or walk in closet, or double Jacuzzi with a swing in the master bath... It falls under .... Who cares to me.

    What two consenting adults do in full view of or with other consenting adults is literally no business of mine.
     
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  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I view most of these 'movements' as quasi-religions in their own right, really.

    Whether LBGTQ+ or Veganism or QAnon or Greens or anti-vaxx or Secular Humanism or whatever ... the list goes on
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Well I draw the line at dead bodies :D

    It is interesting that the uprightly righteous often have a dubious interest in the sexual proclivities of others ... ;)
     
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  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Rereading this thread was an interesting trip down memory lane....the veering and corrections off and on our interfaith path.

    iBrian re-establishing the corral fences and decorum.

    Passionate folks expressing deepfelt beliefs on difficult topics is what we do.

    It aint easy...
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Oh, Good Lord —

    I failed to spot this is in the Islam board. I would have been more circumspect had I realised.

    Apologies for any offence offered.
     
  8. Ella S.

    Ella S. Gnostic Christian

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    That's fair. We have completely different values.

    I agree that it's certainly no place for anyone to force the behavior of others, except in the cases where it's necessary to save a life.

    However, I truly believe that the only good is God, who is not of this world. We debase our souls by falling into animalistic impulses, lowering ourselves from the divine to the worldly. Unfortunately, we can't help this when it comes to craving food, water, and sleep.

    We can, however, remain simple in the foods we eat and the things we drink, and take them in moderation. Periodic fasting, too, helps to cultivate the discipline to pursue inner peace rather than fall onto a hedonic treadmill. Together, they can lessen the impact that the material world has on our thoughts and actions.

    At the end of the day, my way is probably less healthy for the body, but it's necessary for the soul.
     
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  9. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    ..I don't know about that..
    Fasting is good for the body, as well .. it helps the liver from overload and removes toxins.

    Prophet Muhammad, peace be with him, forbade his followers from fasting for more than 24 hours saying:
    "your body has a right over you.."

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise (i.e., no one enters paradise only through their good deeds)." The Prophet's companions asked: "Not even you?" The Prophet replied: "Not even myself, unless God bestows His favor and mercy on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do what is within your ability. And none of you should wish for death, for if he is a doer of good, he may increase his good deeds, and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah."

    — Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Hadith 577 ---
     
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  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    that would be a given...again we are speaking of consenting adults having fun exploring themselves
    Why would G!d give us erogenous sensation? Did he not give us flowers to smell? Should I avoid that because it is pleasurable?

    What is it about sex that makes it dirty other than the human mind? Oh you are enjoying that too much...let us who know do some genital mutilation to reduce your enjoyment of the body He provided you with.

    Do we restrict the ability/skill of the carpenter or cook?

    Now I do understand a person who chooses a spiritual life, be they monastic, celibate, stay in meditation or prayer for days, fast or choose the simple life.

    But that withdrawing from worldly pleasures and sensations should be their choice and not inflicted on others.

    I see sex like money...not the root of evil, but if that is all you can focus on, greed, or love, or gluttony...yah develop issues and you might benefit from moderation....but again...that is a personal choice.

    I may not wish to hang with that person...but it surely is not my job to judge, I did not study for that job in the secular world...and in the religious world someone already has that job.
     
  11. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Of course it's not just about sex. It's about material attachments. All religions ask the follower to choose between God and 'the world'. Surely most religions don't try to force it on all the people? There are fasts and festivals as a reminder

    I think many religions have a core for monastics and the priesthood and close followers, but it is 'diluted' for general society into a set of social and family mores?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
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  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lol...they don't?

    Again the US is my only point of reference but when I was in elementary school my left handed friends had red marks, bruises and the occasional cuts from the ruler wielded by the nuns.

    Well maybe not all people (they would prefer that) but at least their own people.

    But again...i believe in that capacity they are acting as a govt...with the laws being decreed by a unquestionable invisible being.... That is much more powerful concept than dealing with mortal leaders.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I rather think it's an inevitable of Consumer Culture, and the drivers behind that know it's all about sex.

    That is, it's all about gratification.
     
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  14. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    While a bit off topic, what you wrote reminded me me of HALT, "hungry, angry, lonely, tired", an acronym designed as a reminder to practice self-care, from the spiritual 12-step groups.

    Your Gnostic discipline touches on the same basic needs. Interesting, maybe pointing at something profoundly human. Or maybe a cross-fertilization via the meeting between C.G Jung the Gnostic and Bill W, the founder of 12 Step programs.

    Thanks for that insight.
     
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  15. Ella S.

    Ella S. Gnostic Christian

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    I don't believe that God created this world. I believe he created our souls, and that they have been imprisoned in the bodies of material animals. I also don't believe in circumcision? I think that's what you're referring to. That's a law of the Demiurge, not God. Even in traditional Abrahamic religion, these things are the result of man being fallen; Adam and Eve didn't have lustful sex until after disobeying God.

    I don't think you understand the monastic lifestyle, otherwise you wouldn't be asking these questions.

    You are again talking about how it's "personal choice." I already agreed. It doesn't make me lament the wickedness of my culture any less, and how far they have strayed from goodness.

    Also, asceticism is not about denying oneself pleasure. It's about finding pleasure in less, so that we can control our excess. When you buy a $200,000 Jacuzzi, that's money that could have been used to feed and clothe the needy. Even if it's "not bad," which I disagree with, it's still a far cry from good.

    Sure, it's not our job to judge, but it is our job to understand good from evil and choose good. As such, it's commonly productive to talk about what we value, and what behaviors we do and don't consider as moral. There is no need to condemn anyone specific when you do this. I certainly don't condemn fornicators, but I feel rather sorry for them, because I believe that their way leads to spiritual suffering.
     
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  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    There's nothing in this world. The answers are not in this world. God will bring the 'seeker' to this realization. Lord be with me, just for today
     
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  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    And I always come back to St Katherine of Siena –

    For the mystical reason: Her dialogue with Christ, in which He said: "I am He who is, you are she who is not"

    For the mundane reason: In 14th century Italy, here we have a woman who 'spoke truth to power' – curious that Catholics are called to emulate all her virtues, except that one! ;)
     
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  18. Ella S.

    Ella S. Gnostic Christian

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    As weird as it might sound, I always felt like the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous were eerily similar to the 12 operations of alchemy.

    This... actually makes a lot of sense. Part of the point of Gnostic alchemy is to be renewed as a spiritual being and no longer a "slave to the passions." In a way, they both deal with disciplining the drives of our body.

    I think it's more of a case of similar problems having similar solutions, but I do think it's funny that Jung failed and Wilson succeeded by essentially reinventing the system that Jung already had.
     
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  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Nope, never went that direction.
     
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