Gospel of Judas

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by truthseeker, Apr 7, 2006.

  1. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    539
    Likes Received:
    1
    Great to see you around, InLove!

    Judas hung himself, eh? Where is that info written?

    I don't see anything wrong with taking a look at the Gospel of Judas. Really, though the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary aren't canonical, I really enjoyed the reading - especially the Gospel of Thomas. Unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff missing from the Gospel of Judas because of the deterioration. From the little bit I got it seems to be very, very different from anything I have yet to read. According to the show aired on National Geographic, there is a speculation that the church authorities chose the 4 canons because of all the scrutiny that the church was under during the time the NT was being put together. The 4 Gospels are in sync and the Epistles of Paul helps form the church. I guess when the early church was going through such serious tests of faith, there couldn't be wavering information. Good move.
     
  2. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hi truthseeker--nice to correspond with you again. :)

    Yup--I know it is not popular to defend the Nicean (sp?) Counsel, but I think it deserves fair consideration right along with Judas.

    Oh dear--what have I gone and said now? :)

    ;) :D

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  3. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,312
    Likes Received:
    0

    Yes! According to National Geographic at the time when Christians were dieing for there faith, wouldn't have been ideal to have contradicting gospels. Those 4 gospels were also quite similar and synchronised. Sounds quite sound to say, but does it also contribute that them gospels were also earlier and more popular?
     
  4. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hi Again--Peace to All Here:)

    Just for reference, truthseeker--you asked where it says that Judas hanged himself. You can find it in Matthew 27:5 (NIV):

    "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."

    Just thought it might be relevant;) .

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  5. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel demned elusive

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi, InLove! It's great to see you here.

    wil, I have also wondered about all the points you bring up in your post. I've never read The Judas Papers - who is the author? But I would like to, again, stress the difference between something being composed and something being written down for the first time. Just like Grimm's Fairy Tales - the Bros. Grimm weren't the authors, they simply collected and wrote down fairy tales that had been told for generations - the stories had existed for perhaps even centuries before Wilhelm and Jakob came along - they just don't appear in print before then. They were transmitted orally.

    Granted, I'm no Biblical scholar, but AFAIK the dates you mention, both for the canonical Gospels and for the Judas gospel, are all for the date scholars estimate they were written down for the first time. It says nothing about when they were actually composed.

    Can anyone with more education on this topic/reference books on their shelf correct or confirm or expand on this?
     
  6. thipps

    thipps God Alone is Great

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2004
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    0
    from where? appreciate a link.
     
  7. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,027
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    ACTS 1:15-26 counters with...
    Wrong title...The Gospel of Judas is the book she provided. I've read about half, still working my way through the commentary. The actual text in Coptic translated from Greek is very short and this book is claiming written 180, this translation/copy is from 260-340 +/-60 according to carbon dating. I can see why the council rejected it, as with the others it is a little to loose. Some interesting Seth comments, cosmology, Jesus talking about G-d within, and that Judas is to be honored to take part in removing his material body to allow the spiritual body to be seen...

    You know what I miss is being able to compare the KJV, with the Message and NIV, and.... all the different iterations, interpretations and translations. That has always shined new light on individual lines and passages of scripture for me. Relying on one translation and then the intermp from that one translation is tough.

    And yes this is a copy, like the rest of the Gospels. Where it lacks is that there is only one copy, and only in Coptic, where for the others we have Coptic and Greek and sometimes Aramaic...and many copies to put stuff together. However in the early churches irradication of as many heretical documents as possible...a lot is lost. Iraneaus did make mention of this document and odds are there are some other copies around....but in that basement library that won't let google in to record....
    Unfortuneately this is the way with 90% of the bible, all of it was oral tradition until a group of authors, quite a large group, wrote the 66 books that the council assembled into what we call the Bible. Some of the books were written by different authors and some of the oldest copies we have were rewritten and edited prior to what we have today (to then be translated and re-edited by every version of the bible....) And like Grimm's there is tons of truth and underlying layer upon layers of stories and morals for each...


    As for the warrior King/Messiah Jesus theory...that is theory that utilizes some good passages to support it...but it has many issues...

    As for Jesus selecting Judas from the beginning for this task. I don't buy it. Did he rise to the occasion and become the one most likely to pull it off, I think maybe...


    And Jesus definitely proceeded forward fulfilling prophecy...he said he would and did (or the oral tradition and the writers said so anyway)

    Bottom line to me is it doesn't matter, the books are full of extremely valuable (might say life saving) information.
     
  9. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hi--Peace--

    Wil, interesting that you mentioned the Acts version of Judas's death. I thought about that, too. For what it is worth (and you may already know about it), there is a tradition in Christian apologetics that attempts an explanation of the dichotomy between the account in Matthew and the one in Acts. Bear with me, please, for I do not remember exactly how it goes, but it is something like this: Either the apparatus he used to hang himself broke, or he was cut down from the tree. In either case, when he fell, his body burst open (and there is some sort of forensic-type explanation for why this allegedly happened--just can't remember what). I have also heard an alternative theory wherein Judas supposedly fell upon his sword, which would more symbolically fit in with the story of his remorse, if indeed he had been affiliated with the Zealot movement, but totally rules out the Matthew version of events. Anyway, just thought it was interesting, as I said, for what it is worth.:)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  10. didymus

    didymus New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is important to remember and I think, the main point of revealing the Gospel of Judas, was that there were different versions of Christianity. As was said on NG sunday night, the 'Gnostics" didn't call themselves Gnostics, they felt they were Christians. It was the rival faction of 'Christians' who labeled them heretics for their unorthodox views of Jesus and God. Who is to say which is correct? There were several factions of Christianity out there at the time and the Gospel of Judas is great proof of that. The fact that Iraneus mentions this gospel in 180ad(as was mentioned earlier) is proof that it at least existed at that time, who knows when it was actually written. It may have been in circulation since the days of the synoptic gospels.
    In my opinion the canonized gospels are no more valid than the gospels of Judas, Thomas and some of the other banned books, they were only given approval by the church fathers at the time who happened to have more power than the 'Gnostics'.
    Also in my opinion the reason for them selecting the 4 gospels to streamline the varying beliefs while Christians were dying was legitimate but also offers intriguing evience into their validity if the reason was so subjective. Where does the word of God fit into all of that logic?
     
  11. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,312
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the Gnostics were more eastern philosophically influenced? There views were heretical, you should read some other Gnostic texts, you would be surprised. Jesus used his divine powers as a child to curse people when he lost in games? That came out the gospel of Magdeline! And what some use to justify the da vinci codes!
     
  12. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    0
    glad to know i am not missing anything here

    Go Judas!
     
  13. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    539
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don't like to think that there were different versions of Christianity. I do believe though that Christianity is more complex and it is up to each individual to seek that out for themselves. Its a religion of enlightenment with Judaism being the root (though the Nicean Council would disagree), and enlightenment is infinite. The NT is an excellent foundation for building spiritual awareness.

    I always thought that Jesus' words had to be more complex than the canons tell me. But some of this stuff is just shocking!!!
    Peter was the rock upon which the church was built - not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, or Judas. If Judas' side was expressed early on, could the church have survived? Probably not. While we love to go on and on about how this was prophesized and everything, it is our fervor that pushes Christianity. If we were to believe that what Judas' did was right because Jesus' wanted it that way, as this Gospel of Judas states, that changes everything.
     
  14. earl

    earl ?

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,623
    Likes Received:
    18
    Hi Truthseeker. Why/how would it change everything? take care, Earl
     
  15. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hi--As Always, Peace to All Here--

    First off, let me just say "hello" back to Scarlet, whose greeting I missed somehow. Thank you--it is good to be back for a few days, anyway.:)

    Okay--back to the matter at hand. Truthseeker, I just gotta speak up, even though what I say may seem a bit irrelevent at first. I mean no disrespect to anyone who believes that St. Peter is the rock upon which the Church was built. But I believe, along with many Christians, that it was not Peter, but what Peter proclaimed to the Lord that is the rock Jesus refers to when speaking to Peter--that proclamation being that Jesus is the Messiah.

    How is this relevant to the conversation here? For me, it means that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, which proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah of Hebrew prophecy, are trustworthy because they show each prophecy as it is fulfilled. I admit that I do not know how much prophecy is fulfilled in the other books. I am working on being more educated in that area, but my education is coming along a bit slowly for now. So, as yet I am personally undecided as to whether the Gospel of Judas is actually "gospel truth". But I find the fact that it is causing such a stir and so much investigation exciting and fascinating!

    Again, I hope I did not offend anyone--just speaking for myself.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  16. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,906
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey, In Love! Glad to see you around! :)

    As for the Gospel of Judas, I found it interesting, but after reading it, I just didn't feel that spiritual resonance with me. I'm sure many others can bring up all the ways that it contradicts or alternatively reinforces other canonical and/or apocryphal gospels, but I can only (for now) speak to the "Spirit" feeling I have when reading sacred text. I didn't feel bad about it (which happens, on occasion, when I read certain things), but I didn't feel anything much about it. I didn't feel that "sacred" sense of truth, if that makes any sense.

    For me, it doesn't have much to do with my feelings about Judas. I've always felt bad for Judas, to be honest. Someone had to betray Jesus to fulfill the prophecies, and poor Judas was the weak soul (or, according to the Gospel of Judas, the strong soul) who had to do it. Even if he really betrayed Jesus for cash and wasn't elected to do it by Jesus Himself, I still feel kind of bad for him. If he did commit suicide, it makes perfect sense to me. I can imagine he may have been weak in faith, and too tempted by his own evil and self-centered desires, and then felt so horrible after Christ's death. If he had been elected by Jesus, as the Gospel of Judas says, he still probably felt pretty awful after it had all come to pass.

    The reason the gospel doesn't resonate spiritually with me has more to do with its cosmological ideas and the general gnostic theme. Though the Gospel of Thomas did resonate for me- but much of it is also in the canonical gospels. I guess I am just not a gnostic. I feel this world, matter and all, is a beautiful creation by the Divine One, not by some lesser god.
     
  17. didymus

    didymus New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    0
    I tend to agree with you Path of one regarding the general Gnostic belief that all matter is bad and that the physical entrapment of the soul is evil. Although this does closely parallel the Christian notion of sinful nature and original sin. I do feel though that the spiritual being within us all is eternal and pure and our bodies can be vessels for temptation. With that said I don't feel that to be tempted is bad. We learn from temptation and desire . Sometimes we act on it and all in all we battle with right and wrong our whole lives which seems to be the purpose here on this earth. In fact I feel very confident that our sole mission here is to learn to love and just learn in general.
     
  18. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hey, Path--so good to hear from you, too. The conversations here always benefit from the voice you bring to them.

    Didymus, thanks for adding your thoughts on our purpose here. I do believe that the willingness to "learn to love and learn in general" must surely bring glory to God.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,027
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    Seems to me when you compare old testament to new, Mosaic law to Jesus teachings...there is some eastern influence.
     
  20. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,312
    Likes Received:
    0
    True.. But some of things the Gnostics were writing were very odd! Takes the Mickey out of religion! The Gospel of Magdalene was also rejected by the early church, but you should read the stuff that was written in that.. Shows Jesus as a spoilt brat using his divine powers for whatever he wanted. The Gnostics to the Orthodoxy Church was like the communists to democrats.
     

Share This Page