Gospel of Judas

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by truthseeker, Apr 7, 2006.

  1. didymus

    didymus New Member

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    Actually I think Jesus spoke in parables for that very reason, he was imparting secret knowledge in a sense. He often implied that only a select few understood him. As far as Gnostics and secret knowledge, the type of knowledge they were speaking of was a personal knowing or experience with God. They didn't speak of knowledge as intellectual. It would be very similar to the pentecostals or evangelicals of today who speak in tongues and prophecy.
     
  2. didymus

    didymus New Member

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    \

    I may be wrong but I don't think the stories of Jesus as a child were Gnostic. They were apocrypha for sure but I don't think they were Gnosctic, however they may have heard of them.
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Wil -

    So if second cause, G-d in the flesh, has the ability to feel thirst, hunger, anger, fear, sorrow, pain...why are we denying him other human traits...like developing skills, temporarily forgetting his path, and in the course of time moving growing from his humaness to his righteous understanding?

    In the recent discussion between us, I think it's more a matter of perspective, because I don't disagree with your comment here.

    But I will argue - he never sinned.

    I think the 'anonymous years' of Jesus' childhood and adolescence was just that, growing into the fullness of his humanity, learnt at his father's side, his mother's bidding, playing with his family, life in the community...

    That's why I simply refute any notion of secret travels to distant places, Egypt, India, et al ... it all seems a 'necessary fabrication' to me, to add a gloss of pseudo-mystery, as if the Mystery of the Incarnation was not enough.

    My angle is this:
    I think that Christ acted according to his will, rather than to what he knew, or learnt.

    A 'good man' or 'good woman' knows what is right instinctively, and I believe no-one taught Christ the meaning or purpose of his Mission, He just knew it ... it was only in relation to the world that he came to understand it, if you like, by looking at his reflection in the eyes of others ... and this determines every act, every response, that is recorded in Scripture, and that is why the Fathers say Scripture is a dialogue with God.

    The will of Jesus was 'one' with the will of his Father, and thus there was no taint of sin. In that aspect Jesus Christ was, absolutely, what we can only aspire to be, contingently.

    Further, the 'understanding' he comes to is not about himself, nor his mission, of which he is certain, but the 'understanding' is about the blindness and obduracy of wilful humanity.

    And as I said before, this 'dialogue' between God and man that took place in Judea 2,000 years ago was orchestrated by the 'Holy Spirit' which led the human Jesus through the 'wilderness' towards the fulfillment of his destiny, something which even he, at the eleventh hour, drew back.

    (This introduces the question of Judas afresh)

    When I refered to his time at the temple being showing a little disrespect it wasn't to the rabbis but to his parents...

    Agreed. They saw it as disrespect, He saw it otherwise. And in fact respect to God supercedes respect to one's parents, so the lesson was theirs, not his ... but not to split hairs with you ... one can imagine a time when a boy Jesus is with Joseph in the workshop, 'miles away', and Joseph saying, "well, the meaning of this moment is, hold that right there while I hit it!"

    +++

    There is a scene in The Passion when Jesus is carrying his cross to Golgotha. Mary follows a side-road to meet him, and as she watches, he falls beneath the burden. We see in her mind the child falling in the street, and she rushes forward to comfort him ... then back to the cross, "Look," he says, a beaten and bloody ruin of a man, "I make the world anew."

    What is that, prophecy? Irony? Sarcasm? Bitterness? Defeat? Hopelessness?

    I think not. When a child falls and hurts him/herself, in that moment, the whole world has sprung a trap. The first cry is more often fright than pain, and in that moment we all learn lessons deemed 'necessary' - take care, the world is not a safe place, etc.

    But the parent picks up and comforts the child, and in so doing the child's world is remade ... not only the bad, but the positive too, love, care, comfort, nurture...

    (This is heading somewhere else, now... )

    Christ not only accomplished the act of the loving parent in the face of the ills of the world (ills, btw, of which we are not entirely innocent) - "Amen I say unto theee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43) but that in a mysterious way, by taking the fall onto himself, he tells us not only that we are comforted, but that we need fall no more - certainly the snares of the adversary that bind the soul are loosed.

    He has remade the world.

    We simply lack the moral courage to believe in it.

    +++

    It was St Maximus who developed the theology of the two wills of Christ, the foundation of Chalcedon. He speaks of a Divine Will (God) and a 'gnomic' will of man (gnomic from the Greek, meaning 'discriminating'):

    Gnomic Will:
    To will, according to Aristotle, is simply to recognize something as good. However, fallen humanity is no longer able to recognize the perfect goodness of God as the sole object of its will. It deliberates, and is attracted to that which it thinks is good (perhaps for selfish reasons) and hence is swayed by inclination. This will Maximus calls ‘gnomic will’ from the Greek gnome – inclination or intention. The human will of Christ belongs to his human nature, the divine will to his divine nature, but any gnomic will – being drawn by inclination – would belong to the human person.

    http://trushare.com/90NOV02/NO02GROV.htm

    Unlike man, Jesus always saw what was 'the good' and his natural human will was always shaped and ordered by the divine will, which he knew by instinct, rather than by education.

    What we will always wins over what we know - and this is the inevitable failure of pagan gnosticism, it invents fantabulous structures of reason, knowledge, meaning, etc., structures of things, but it never confronts the issue of the errant will in any meaningful and useful dialogue.

    Judas acted as he did not because of what he knew about Jesus, but because of what he wanted from him - by doing what he did, he hoped to 'force his hand' as it were, and bring Jesus into the open as the fulfillment of prophecy.

    Thomas
     
  4. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel demned elusive

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    :eek: Good point.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Thomas
    That's why I simply refute any notion of secret travels to distant places, Egypt, India, et al ... it all seems a 'necessary fabrication' to me, to add a gloss of pseudo-mystery, as if the Mystery of the Incarnation was not enough.


    :eek: Good point.

    now I'm confused, necessary or un-necessary fabrication? It is my understanding that their are ancient Indian writings indicating his travels through their lands, that he is revered as a guru from the interactions... I've got to look into this more..

    But then you speak of the Passion, a 3 hour film based on a few pages of information. Most films are less in length based on hundreds of pages of text...Gibson et al...while it was moving, thought provoking, when we are talking of fabrications it contains scene after scene which were completely conjecture or made up for impact...as if the incarnation was not enough...

    On Jesus without sin...we have an ends justifies the means concept...when we have the power to rewrite the understanding of the sabbath law, and creating a scourge, whipping the vendors, tipping over the tables is an example of loving your enemy and turning the other cheek...tis a new discussion...his stages of growth in life, in the desert and in the garden, his foibles as well as his triumphs are all so a part of the complete understanding..to me.
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Wil -

    now I'm confused, necessary or un-necessary fabrication?

    Yes, that was confusing. I meant the fabrication was necessary to the gnostics as, indeed, is much of the gnostic gospels, to fit their 'mysterious' schemata (mysterious in the sense of secret).

    An aside - I have seen scholars refute the notion that Thomas is a gnostic gospel with quite strong argument. Pagels' view seems to be anything that's not orthodox is therefore gnostic. The scholar's view is that Thomas doesn't reference the typical gnostic syzergies or cosmologies, he is not orthodox, but neither is he 'gnostic by default'.

    It is my understanding that their are ancient Indian writings indicating his travels through their lands, that he is revered as a guru from the interactions... I've got to look into this more..

    The ones I've seen have all been discredited. Famously the 'Isa' stories from India/Tibet - the monastery concerned has no such record nor recollection, and the Russian who brought it home was a 'colourful' character and tried a number of other frauds.

    But then you speak of the Passion, a 3 hour film based on a few pages of information.

    Only to introduce the point, it is indeed, as you say, a 'fiction based on fact'.

    On Jesus without sin ...
    I'm not saying that the impetus to sin was not there, I'm saying He never gave in, He never put himself before God...

    ... but I'm not saying He was omniscient ... I suppose I am saying he never put a foot wrong in his ministry ... I suppose in fact that what I am saying is that every line of Scripture is like a fractal, it opens deeper and deeper, it has infinite depth ... there is nothing superficial there, nothing 'merely human' that simply says, "Oh, that bit just shows how human he was..." it may well do, but it will also lead to more.

    Tradition teaches the four senses - literal, moral, symbolic and eschatalogical - of Scripture, so I read it that way.

    Thomas
     
  7. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    Gee. I hope the conversation is still capable of coming back to life.

    Please forgive me for not commenting for so long. Good to see you again, Didymus. Thomas, your comments are always so good - I need to print them out sometimes.


    Of course, we know this type of thing is not typical of Christianity as we know it. If this type of thinking was allowed into the church early on, Christianity would not have survived as the faith-based, God-centered entity that it is. With this kind of thinking, Christians would have been chanting in the dark and waiting for a physical transition into the spirit realm.

    Much of the text describes Jesus laughing at all the seriousness of the disciples, hiding from the disciples, and pulling Judas away into private meetings alone and telling Judas secrets while the other 11 looked on, angry of the relationship between Judas and Jesus. I think that the text is good to have around because it gives us an historical understanding of the different sects of early Christianity, but I also think that it is poor character to use Judas' status as a bit of an outcast to try to turn his act into one that is shrouded in secrets and darkness with Jesus (The Light).
     
  8. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    i know a better one than this (cant recall what it was called) where they take Judas & make him to be the good guy & make Jesus to be the bad guy. like one place they say Jesus was selfish because he would not sell the oil that Mary was saving for his death & Judas claims he would give the money to the poor.

    Judas was a thief & a liar. he not only betrayed Jesus for money but he plotted against Jesus for a long time.

    they do the same things with Thomas & Mary M. & try to make it look like there was conspiracy between everyone with 'secrets'. shhh... dont tell anyone the 'secrets'.

    ACK!
     
  9. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Judas thought that Jesus would bring in the new Kingdom (literally), and thought to excellerate that issue. He was all about the here and now (of his time). When he reallized he messed up badly (had his friend killed, and the Kingdom was not yet), he gave up...and killed himself.

    Judas was no better or worse than we are (everyone of us). He had goals and ambitions and dreams...and he tried to push the envelope...and we haven't?

    v/r

    Q
     
  10. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    no. not everyone is a judas.
     
  11. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    We aren't?

    We don't gossip, nor manipulate, nor deceive, nor cheat, nor steal, nor bear false witness, nor get ambitious, nor keep secrets, nor accept bribes, nor sell out our friends, nor have remorse, nor commit suicide, destroy other's lives, nor cause people to have bad reputations, nor...?

    Everyone is a Judas at some point...

    v/r

    Q
     
  12. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    you can try to inflict that kind of guilt on everyone.
    my answer remains - no. not 'everyone' is a judas.
     
  13. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    What guilt? that is a fact of life. That is human, and Judas is us, but God does not care. He want's us for His own.
     
  14. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    no. not everyone is a Judas. that is not a fact of life.
     
  15. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I will bow to the first perfect human, who has never done one thing Judas did...

    I don't think I will be bowing much.

    So hard to look into a mirror and see self as a sinner, just like Judas. We talk the talk, but try walking the walk and that is a different story...

    Yup, that is us, Judas...

    only we are Forgiven....
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2006
  16. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Guess we need Jesus more than ever, or else we would hang ourselves for being lost...

    v/r

    Q
     
  17. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    bowing to someone is not the point & being perfect is not the point either.
    trying to say everyone is a Judas is the point.
    are you sure you know the whole story? there is not one good word written about him. if there is, please show me.

    1)Jesus declared Judas was a devil from the beginning, he did not call the other 11 disciples a devil. (not everyone is a devil)
    2)Judas never drank from the true vine because Jesus did not allow it.
    3)the other 11 did not betray Jesus for money.

    4)the 11 made mistakes but they did not 'plot' against Jesus. (big difference)
    5)the 11 did not kill themselves out of selfish pity.

    6)Judas never truly repented. if he had, he would not have killed himself.
    7)Judas never recieved the Holy Ghost & went to his own place.
    8)the others did recieve the promise of the Holy Ghost.

    9)While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    no. not everyone is a Judas.
     
  18. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    maybe that is YOU & maybe you do all the things Judas did, but STOP calling me and everyone else a Judas.

    where does the scripure declare Judas is forgiven? chapter & verse please.

    i have done looked in the mirror & acknowledged I am sinner years ago & i do my best to to walk the walk every single day i live.
     
  19. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Exactly. There is not one good word written about...man. Not one, except redemption, and Jesus' ways for man. Now do you get it?

    v/r

    Q
     
  20. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    there are many good words written about different men in the scriptures but not about Judas.

    i think you are mixed up.
     

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