My Christianity questions.

Penguin

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Hopefully you’ll all forgive me but my knowledge of Christianity is very limited indeed but I do find it intriguing. I joined the forum so I could learn about various religions, ask many questions and hopefully try and not feel so lost spiritually. A few questions are below, I have many more but if somebody could give me brief, exact answers to these then I would appreciate it. Many thanks.

Did Jesus Christ really exist and what proof is there to back it up?

What did Jesus Christ originally look like in the ancient times? (race and skin colour) and why is he portrayed as being a good looking white man with a beard?

What is the oldest painting, statue or any other image of Jesus Christ?

What was Jesus Christ’s crime exactly for being crucified?

If God and Jesus Christ (who loves us) exist then why do they allow the human race to be so barbaric and inflict so much suffering each other? Could it be that they are waiting for us to destroy ourselves completely upon which there would be a second coming of some description?

Since more bad things happen in the world than good things is this proof that that evil prevails and Satan is more powerful than anything?

Did Mary and Joseph have any more children after Jesus and what happened to there blood line?

What do Easter eggs symbolize in Christianity?

Who wrote the old and new testaments?

What is heaven and hell? Could we all be in hell now and death is the awakening to heaven?
 
namaste penguin

oooo-eeee baby...do you have questions...I know this sounds trite, but the four gospels are fairly short...Mathew, Mark, Luke and John will give you a great start for an understanding....and I dare say more questions! Also reading the writings of Paul will dip you a little further into thought..

I'm so looking forward to the other responses....but here goes...

(I think it would be extremely beneficial for us to respond to the questions rather than others responses....)

-Did Jesus Christ really exist and what proof is there to back it up?

Christians and most of the world would say yes...however there is debate, and the only major source is the New Testament (and associated apocryphal religious texts)...there is some reference from Josephus (historical, not religious)


-What did Jesus Christ originally look like in the ancient times? (race and skin colour) and why is he portrayed as being a good looking white man with a beard?

Tis unknown...I think it took till the 1300's before a painting was made with brown eyes and darker skin...he was portrayed with light brown hair and blue eyes because the european audience buying the paintings wanted him to be in their image...We would think he was obviously semetic (dark skin, dark hair, dark eyes) and black would be a higher possibility than white...

-What is the oldest painting, statue or any other image of Jesus Christ?

don't know
What was Jesus Christ’s crime exactly for being crucified?

Pilate who wasn't well known to be light with any criminal decided he committed no crime...fearful of reprisal?.. the priests and crowd said blasphemy and insisted on crucifiction...although stoning would have been appropriate....twas a confusing time...

If God and Jesus Christ (who loves us) exist then why do they allow the human race to be so barbaric and inflict so much suffering each other? Could it be that they are waiting for us to destroy ourselves completely upon which there would be a second coming of some description?

I think we are loved so much we need to learn somethings for ourselves...as a parent if you protect your children from everything and do everything for them...they don't learn a thing..don't grow physically, mentally or spiritually. We were given free will, to choose our own course...and learn by it.

Since more bad things happen in the world than good things is this proof that that evil prevails and Satan is more powerful than anything?

I think the world is in a wonderful balance, and I think of every bad thing that has happened in my life....and it has all lead me here, there is not only a silver lining around every disaster there is a lesson and a learning that moves us forward.

Did Mary and Joseph have any more children after Jesus and what happened to there blood line?

Yes, a number of children....and I have seen/heard of no record of discendents, I'm sure there are...but I've no knowledge of...

What do Easter eggs symbolize in Christianity?

Nothing, most of the Easter celebrations, rabbits, eggs, equinox, revolve around pagan rituals which have been adopted co-opted, regarding the Goddess of spring, the rites of spring, fertility...there exist obvious ties an analogies to the Resurection but no biblical/religious correlations...

Who wrote the old and new testaments?

Dozens of authors, thousands of scribes rewriting, editors editing, translators translating and interpreters interpretting (and a partridge....never mind)

What is heaven and hell? Could we all be in hell now and death is the awakening to heaven?

My understanding, both are choices, tis a matter of perception. Anyone of us could be in heaven now, or hell, depending on which we decide to create and whether your cup is half empty or you are drinking from the sauce because grace and abundance is overflowing...(similar to your question about this terrible world some perceive...)


Lastly again, not to short circuit your questioning but answers are personal things, much of this between you and G-d...that old keeping the sabbath holy, spending time in prayer and meditation, exploring some of your local churches...listening to the talks, taking a couple of classes, making personal contacts...and reading the book...all extremely valuable.

peace and blessings on your path.

 
Penguin said:
Hopefully you’ll all forgive me but my knowledge of Christianity is very limited indeed but I do find it intriguing. I joined the forum so I could learn about various religions, ask many questions and hopefully try and not feel so lost spiritually. A few questions are below, I have many more but if somebody could give me brief, exact answers to these then I would appreciate it. Many thanks.

Did Jesus Christ really exist and what proof is there to back it up?

What did Jesus Christ originally look like in the ancient times? (race and skin colour) and why is he portrayed as being a good looking white man with a beard?

What is the oldest painting, statue or any other image of Jesus Christ?

What was Jesus Christ’s crime exactly for being crucified?

If God and Jesus Christ (who loves us) exist then why do they allow the human race to be so barbaric and inflict so much suffering each other? Could it be that they are waiting for us to destroy ourselves completely upon which there would be a second coming of some description?

Since more bad things happen in the world than good things is this proof that that evil prevails and Satan is more powerful than anything?

Did Mary and Joseph have any more children after Jesus and what happened to there blood line?

What do Easter eggs symbolize in Christianity?

Who wrote the old and new testaments?

What is heaven and hell? Could we all be in hell now and death is the awakening to heaven?

Welcome to CR ;)

1. The Bible says Jesus existed. Some "secular" writers of the era allude to His existence (Josephus comes to mind).

2. Most likely He looked much as a Middle eastern or eastern meditteranean person would look. Why pictures depict him as white? Why do pictures of him in Africa depict him as not white? Human nature to color God in a way we can identify with.

3. Who knows what the oldest visage of Jesus might be? We argue about the pictures and images we have now...

4. Above His head on the cross were the words "Jesus of Nazereth, King of the Jews". The Sanhedrin wanted the sign taken down, because they refused to accept him as anything but an "heretic". Rome, said the sign would stay (some say to set an example for any other "king wannabe").

5. Free will.

6. Who says more bad than good happens...the media? :eek: ;)

7. Jesus is noted as being looked upon by his brothers and sisters with scepticism...so apparently there were siblings from Joseph and Mary.

8. Easter Eggs symbolize nothing in Christianity. They are a carryover from another religious faith, that celibrates the rebirth of the world at spring time.

9. No one is certain who specifically wrote the books that are in the Bible.

10. Christian hell, is a place of physical/emotional/psychological pain and torment beyond enduring. Most of that is due to the absense of God, and the knowledge of His absense. (in otherwords, those in Hell know God will never be with them, ever).

To a fetus being forced through the birth canal (and out of his comfortable world of 9 months), I imagine that might be considered hell, until he is wrapped tightly in warm linen and held in the arms of those that wanted him. Then it is an awakening to heavenly potential.

Hell itself, has no potential. There is no bright side...not even the relief of death.

Interesting questions. ;)

v/r

Q
 
Kindest Regards, Penguin, and welcome to CR!

Good questions!

Did Jesus Christ really exist and what proof is there to back it up?

Wil and Q have provided a pretty good summary. There is a passage in the histories of Josephus that notes Jesus (as a rebel, as I recall). Where exactly I do not recall, and I am being too lazy to look it up just now. Wil's point that so many texts, canonical and non-canonical, make reference to him, gives us a reasonable idea that some great teacher by the name of Jesus did in fact live.

What did Jesus Christ originally look like in the ancient times? (race and skin colour) and why is he portrayed as being a good looking white man with a beard?

Well, considering he was born into a Jewish household, to a Jewish mother and father, I would reasonably think he looked Jewish.

What is the oldest painting, statue or any other image of Jesus Christ?

One must remember that the earliest days of Christianity, Christians were considered, well, wierdos. With the Roman destruction of the Temple and persecution of the Jews, ending with the expulsion from the Holy Land after the Bar Kochba revolt, everything Jewish became suspect. Mind you, at this time Christianity was deemed a sub-sect of Judaism proper, and was persecuted along with the Jews. So the Christians, who already had a foothold outside of Palestine courtesy of Paul, laid low and grew, for a time, in the diaspora. At some point the Roman emperor (forget now which one) decided to place the blame for some national catastrophy on the Christians, who he was as a threat to the political establishment. So the Christians ended up getting thrown to the lions, and butchered for sport in the Coloseum. There were what, 4 or 5 major persecutions of the Christians in a manner like this over a couple of hundred years, yet surprisingly the faith still grew!

It wasn't until Constantine enlisted the aid of Christians from Britain in aiding him to gain the Roman throne, that Christianity was officially allowed, and even to some extent adopted as the new state religion. There was some resistance by those of the old guard, including Constantine's successor Julian (apostate), but by and large Christianity was here to stay from the time of Constantine. Constantine was also responsible for bringing together the assorted books and Christian scholars of the time, and arguably for political reasons sorted through the collection and weeded out those texts and ideas that were deemed detrimental to Rome. Presto! Roman Catholism was born!

Oh, this missed your point. Because Christianity was so presecuted, there really weren't any paintings or images made (besides the commandment about images!) It wasn't until Constantine that such things were even allowed. If I recall correctly, the earliest images only date to around 250 ad, = or -, a little before Constantine in 312-313 ad. I don't know why Alexandria Egypt comes to mind here, and I could be way off base.

What was Jesus Christ’s crime exactly for being crucified?

I think it was said well by the others. The Jews executed him for blasphemy. The Roman governor disagreed, and made it known that if Jesus was to be executed, it would be for threatening the Jewish political establishment. Hence the sign, "King of the Jews."

If God and Jesus Christ (who loves us) exist then why do they allow the human race to be so barbaric and inflict so much suffering each other? Could it be that they are waiting for us to destroy ourselves completely upon which there would be a second coming of some description?

This is an ongoing question for a lot of us. Some people just don't seem to get it. Not that all should be Christians, but the core message of Love each other and Love G-d are central to most all of the great world faiths, in some form or other. Sadly, this lesson is lost on far too many.

Since more bad things happen in the world than good things is this proof that that evil prevails and Satan is more powerful than anything?
I disagree there is more bad than good. Good is everywhere, all around us. From the boy scout helping the little old lady cross the street, to a gentleman holding a door open for a mother pushing a stroller, to relief workers getting their hands and lives dirty cleaning up assorted messes and natural disasters.

But these things don't make it into the newspapers and television.

Did Mary and Joseph have any more children after Jesus and what happened to there blood line?

Yes, there were others, although the only one named as such is James, who wrote the book of *tah-dah* James. He was also the regional leader of the Christian headquarters at Jerusalem prior to the Roman invasion and destruction of the Temple. It is said, although it escapes me where (not in the Bible), that James was thrown to his death by Roman soldiers from the roof of the Temple.

There was a bone box found a couple of years ago said to be that of James the brother of Jesus. Most scholars have concluded it was a forgery.

What do Easter eggs symbolize in Christianity?

Nothing. In the process of converting Rome from the long entrenched Paganism to Christianity at the time of Constantine and after, certain concessions were made to keep peace in the empire. Some Pagan symbology made its way into Christianity. A similar question can be asked of Christmas, which when one looks at the Gospel account there is no way Jesus was born on December 25 if the shepherds were in the field with their flocks. It was too cold, even in Palestine. But the symbology of rebirth seemed appropriate for those with the power to make things happen, to concede a popular Roman holiday and change the trappings into something more palatable to Christianity. Same thing with Easter.

Who wrote the old and new testaments?
Oh my! The authors traditionally ascribed? The alleged authors? The "real" authors? Some scholars claim some books have multiple sources, therefore multiple authors.

Like Q said, we don't know. Not for certain. Not if we are truthful to ourselves on the matter.

What is heaven and hell? Could we all be in hell now and death is the awakening to heaven?

I don't know. I think heaven is being with G-d, and hell is being totally removed from G-d.

Somewhere around here is a pretty good thread about hell. In the Old Testament, the word used is Sheol, meaning the grave. In the New Testament there are three words used. Hades, meaning the grave (pretty much the same as the OT Hebrew). Gehenna, reference to a burning trash pit in a valley outside of Jerusalem where criminal bodies were sometimes burned. And Tartaros, only used once in one of Peter's epistles, that is reference to a dungeon where the Nephilim are chained in darkness, awaiting their fate.

Hope this helps. :D
 
Penguin said:
Did Jesus Christ really exist and what proof is there to back it up?


No one with an objective and informed viewpoint really knows.

What did Jesus Christ originally look like in the ancient times? (race and skin colour) and why is he portrayed as being a good looking white man with a beard?

There is an artifact which purports to be the arrest warrant for Jesus. It describes him as about 4'10", hump backed, long pointy nose...that doesn't sound quite right to me. Truth is...nobody knows.

What is the oldest painting, statue or any other image of Jesus Christ?

Don't know.

What was Jesus Christ’s crime exactly for being crucified?]/quote]

Sedition.
If God and Jesus Christ (who loves us) exist then why do they allow the human race to be so barbaric and inflict so much suffering each other? Could it be that they are waiting for us to destroy ourselves completely upon which there would be a second coming of some description?

That's a good question!

Since more bad things happen in the world than good things is this proof that that evil prevails and Satan is more powerful than anything?

Are you sure more bad things happen than good, or are they just more noticable?

Did Mary and Joseph have any more children after Jesus and what happened to there blood line?

Not insofar as the official Bible records. James was Jesus' half brother.

What do Easter eggs symbolize in Christianity?
The cosmic egg.


Who wrote the old and new testaments?

Those writer dudes. Nobody really knows. The Bulk of the OT was written or compiled in the eighth century BCE. Paul wrote the first stuff in the NT even though his story comes later chronologically. Mark, the first Gospel was written just prior to 70CE. All the rest come later in the second century...probably.

What is heaven and hell? Could we all be in hell now and death is the awakening to heaven?

Heaven and hell are ideas. Really they are perversions of ideas, but they are designed to appeal to the less learned. You know, in every religion there is a lobby level where anyone can come in and just hang out, but then the more serious people go on upstairs. Heaven and hell are pedestrian level concepts.

Chris
 
Well, there you have it.

Differing views from within the same faith (unless China is not a Christian, but I think he said he was)...

You have to run with what you've got, unless... you choose to seek answers for yourself (and read the good book). I opine that you too will come to your own conclusions.

Probably the best thing is to read the book (I think we all agree on that point).

v/r

Q
 
Penguin said:
Did Jesus Christ really exist and what proof is there to back it up?
:) Here are the passages from Josephus Juantoo3 referred to:
Josephus in "Antiquity of the Jews" said:
BOOK XVIII.
Containing The Interval Of Thirty−Two Years.
From The Banishment Of Archelus To The Departure From Babylon.
Chapter 3, section 3, (pg 962)
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call
him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as
receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews
and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the
suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the
cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he
appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had
foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.
And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.


BOOK XX.
Containing The Interval Of Twenty−Two Years.
From Fadus The Procurator To Florus.
CHAPTER 9, section 1, (pg 1081-1082)
Concerning Albinus Under Whose Procuratorship James Was Slain; As
Also What Edifices Were Built By Agrippa.
1. And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into
Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood,
and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was
also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus
proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed
the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity
a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high
priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took
the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he
was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging
offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed;
when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a
proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed
him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.
...
 
Hi,
Firstly, I’d like to say many thanks to you all for taking the time to answer my questions and I was pleased with the answers.
Regarding my question on more bad things happen in the world than good things I have based this on my experiences and experiences of others around me. I do not disagree there is good, like the boy helping the old lady across the road etc but this has no affect on human suffering or results in death. You could look at this the other way and say it is bad that the old lady can’t make it across the road due to poor health and Jesus or God should help heal her, so why don’t they? Even though it isn’t published in the media as we read this now there is children, for no reason really, dying in hospital from cancer and other terminal illnesses. There are people in other countries that are oppressed by politics or other reasons which result in torture and death. I could go on and on with examples couldn’t I but the ratio of evil against good is overwhelming, there is no equal comparison.

With all respect to you all one of the things I can’t grasp is the haziness of the construction of the bible, it’s something I have tried to understand but have never. Once Jesus had been crucified and rose again why was it left so long before it was started to be written about and how can scribes (who carried on writing over a period of many years after) be writing the word of God or Jesus? I have asked this question to Jehovah Witnesses who have called at my door and the response was ” well, God was speaking through them and they wrote it down” or something along those lines, I can’t quite remember, sorry.
If this is the case then why isn’t the bible still having additions made to it now as there are many people who claim God or Jesus is in touch with them, loves them and communicates with them so surely they could carry on the writings in some way and give us hope and assurance they are in the present.

I have been told in the past by many people that Jesus probably was a coloured man with very dark skin and also the Roman Catholics are the one’s who decided to portray him as a white man with a beard etc as it was what they wanted to perceive him as from then on. Is there any truth in that?
Mentioning Roman Catholics reminds me of something else I was going to ask. Does the Vatican have artefacts stored that are supposed to be top secret that can prove or disprove the existence of Jesus Christ? It was something I read somewhere in passing but can’t remember where unfortunately.
Although I am not attached to any type of religion at the moment and am not sure if I will ever be, I do find a strong sense of peace and calm whenever I enter a church or cathedral and it makes me think about things. Many thanks again for your contributions in answer to my previous questions.
 
I have been told in the past by many people that Jesus probably was a coloured man with very dark skin and also the Roman Catholics are the one’s who decided to portray him as a white man with a beard etc as it was what they wanted to perceive him as from then on. Is there any truth in that?

Well Jesus was born in the Middle East, so He would look like an Arab/Jew.

Artists in the West portrayed Him from their own perspective, as we have a European-looking Jesus. This was not a Roman Catholic as such. Just artistic interpretation. Politic correctness wasn't an issue in those days. Greco's version of Christ, for example, looks Spanish. Da Vinci's looks Italian.

Mentioning Roman Catholics reminds me of something else I was going to ask. Does the Vatican have artefacts stored that are supposed to be top secret that can prove or disprove the existence of Jesus Christ?

Well if they're top secret, then no-one will know. But the Vatican is extremely suspicious of 'artefacts' that supposedly prove anything - for no artefact can add to or take away from the Deposit of Faith founded on Scripture and Tradition. So my answer would be 'no'.

The Shroud of Turin, for example, is not an object of doctrine - one is not obliged to believe in it ... the conspiracy theorists love to speculate, however.

Then again, we've suffered some, ahem, unfortunate popes in our day, so anything really 'hot' would have no doubt found its way into the private collections of the Medici's, or such like...

At one point in time there were enough splinters of wood from the true cross, for example, to fabricate Noah's Ark. And enough nails to hold it all together.

There are the incorruptible bodies of certain saints which are studied periodically, but again these do not comprise any aspect of doctrine. They are part of the Mystery and a signifier of His handiwork, but they are not presented as proof of anything.

There are two items on the altar in the Vatican, The Books of Scripture and the Summa of St Thomas Aquinas - this signifies the the Salvation History as revealed by God, and the reflection upon Revelation in the Greek philosophic tradition - the dual heritage of Catholic Christianity - the journey from God to man, and from man to God.

Thomas
 
Penguin said:
... Regarding my question on more bad things happen in the world than good things I have based this on my experiences and experiences of others around me. I do not disagree there is good, like the boy helping the old lady across the road etc but this has no affect on human suffering or results in death. You could look at this the other way and say it is bad that the old lady can’t make it across the road due to poor health and Jesus or God should help heal her, so why don’t they? Even though it isn’t published in the media as we read this now there is children, for no reason really, dying in hospital from cancer and other terminal illnesses. There are people in other countries that are oppressed by politics or other reasons which result in torture and death. I could go on and on with examples couldn’t I but the ratio of evil against good is overwhelming, there is no equal comparison.
Again it is a matter of perspective... Some quotes escape me, Rumi I think referring to if you can't take some rubbing how will you be polished, and the concept of iron being fired and beaten to take out the impurities, borken bones are strongest wear the healing occurred... Life gives us many chances to grow, we can decide they are negative situations or we can learn from them.

There is always a bigger picture to each occurance, land has been flooding for years, it takes the minerals and nutrients from the sea or rivers and deposits them on the soil, increasing fertility of the area and allowing for years of new crop growth....man unfortunately builds by the seas and rivers and this inconveniences us when floods occur.

I percieve that 99.99% of people are wonderful and given the opportunity do good regularly, slip occasionally...but 0.01% make the headlines....

I hitch hiked around the US heavily in the 70's, some in the 80's and last trip coast to coast '92...five weeks on the road before I untied my sleeping bag off my back pack...every night in folks houses, either in a bed or on a couch with a blanket and pillow...

Every job I was laid off or fired from turned into a better one...of course I haven't been fired in the past 25 years...I learned some lessons in that regard...

When I do think of insurmountable trouble, even upto major disasters, war or murder...I contemplate looking down at the room, the chair I am sitting in...raising up, and looking down at the building/home I am in....raising up and looking down at the block...further yet and visualizing the community, back up yet again and look at the state or country..further the continent...further the earth...further yet the solar system....further yet our galaxy...backing up and getting a gaze of the scope and breadth of the universe, the delicate balance of orbits, life forms, eco systems...the amazement of creation. I contemplate exactly how big/small my problem is and what it is exactly I am asking Jesus and G-d to look after...and am overjoyed that in truth, free will allows us to grow and understand...
 
When I do think of insurmountable trouble ...

Would that we all did that ...

Thanks, Wil. And thanks for that endorsement of human nature, they're always handy things to have.

Thomas
 
Penguin said:
If this is the case then why isn’t the bible still having additions made to it now as there are many people who claim God or Jesus is in touch with them, loves them and communicates with them so surely they could carry on the writings in some way and give us hope and assurance they are in the present.

Profound statement, Penguin. Welcome to CR.
Penguin said:

I have been told in the past by many people that Jesus probably was a coloured man with very dark skin and also the Roman Catholics are the one’s who decided to portray him as a white man with a beard etc as it was what they wanted to perceive him as from then on. Is there any truth in that?

It's not the person of the flesh that we all want to claim, it is the Divinity of Jesus that the body of Christ wants to claim and personally be a part of. Every Christian culture who has an image of Jesus will (and should, IMHO) have an image that relates to that culture so that they will personally identify as part of the body of Christ.
Penguin said:
Although I am not attached to any type of religion at the moment and am not sure if I will ever be, I do find a strong sense of peace and calm whenever I enter a church or cathedral and it makes me think about things.

Somehow there is a Light in the message of Jesus that tends to calm the spirit and draw us closer to the Light of Life. You don't necessarily have to be Christian, it just becomes a part of you in some way.
 
If this is the case then why isn’t the bible still having additions made to it now as there are many people who claim God or Jesus is in touch with them, loves them and communicates with them so surely they could carry on the writings in some way and give us hope and assurance they are in the present.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches distinguish between Revelation and Personal Revelation - personal revelation is private and meant for the individual concerned - whereas Revelation as such is Prophetic and meant for all humanity.

Even those revelations made to the Doctors of the Church, for example, are not considered Doctrinal nor Scriptural. A Catholic is under no obligation with regard to their content.

On of my favourites is from the Dialogues of St Catherine of Siena, in which she was told "I Am He Who Is, you are she who is not." Very Zen, and possibly somewhat disconcerting, but if one inquires into the doctrinal understanding, very Christian (and not Zen at all!)

Thomas
 
Originally Posted by Penguin If this is the case then why isn’t the bible still having additions made to it now as there are many people who claim God or Jesus is in touch with them, loves them and communicates with them so surely they could carry on the writings in some way and give us hope and assurance they are in the present.
One of the interprestations of the bible is that it is not simply historical content, parables and allegory of that time...but also of this time.

Whatever book you read you can read your name into the character, and develop a new understanding of situations that occur in your life. Your autobiography is written, and it is found in the pages of scripture. In another thread it was argued that everyone has been Judas, and we've also been David and Goliath, Cain and Abel, Adam and Eve, Joseph, Judah....and all have the light of Christ within, which if we allow to glow...will lead us to the kingdom
 
wil said:
One of the interprestations of the bible is that it is not simply historical content, parables and allegory of that time...but also of this time.

Whatever book you read you can read your name into the character, and develop a new understanding of situations that occur in your life. Your autobiography is written, and it is found in the pages of scripture. In another thread it was argued that everyone has been Judas, and we've also been David and Goliath, Cain and Abel, Adam and Eve, Joseph, Judah....and all have the light of Christ within, which if we allow to glow...will lead us to the kingdom
[/i]

In otherwords, the Bible is timeless...;)

It applies to yesterday, today and tomorrow.

v/r

Q
 
On the authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum. This is part of the Wikepedia entry: "Josephus on Jesus."

It is significant that Origen, writing in about 240, fails to mention the Testimonium Flavianum, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James, which occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (xx 9). Origen also states that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ" (Cels, i 47) "he did not accept Jesus as Christ" (Comm. Matt., x 17), and "he says nothing of the wonderful deeds that our Lord did" (Stromateis, ii 2) but the testimonium declares Jesus to be Christ and claims that he did "wonderful works". Starting in the 17th century, this has given rise to the suggestion presented by Protestant philologists that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in the present form.

Many modern historians reject the passage as an interpolation, on other grounds, for several reasons inherent in the text. In its context, passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and thus the thread of continuity, of "sad calamities," is interrupted by this passage. The context, without the testimonium passage, reads:
So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. The passage 3.3 also fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorff, 2002. It is also argued that "He was [the] Christ" can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian; he characterized his patron Vespasian as the foretold Messiah.

The deepest concerns about the authenticity of the passage were succinctly expressed by John Dominic Crossan, in The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Peasant (1991, ISBN 0060616296): "The problem here is that Josephus' account is too good to be true, too confessional to be impartial, too Christian to be Jewish." Three passages stood out: "if it be lawful to call him a man … He was [the] Christ … for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." These seem directly to address Christological debates of the early 4th century. Consequently, most secular historians (and even many Christian scholars) dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Testimonium_Flavianum

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
On the authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum. This is part of the Wikepedia entry: "Josephus on Jesus."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Testimonium_Flavianum

Chris

What it does say is that was a Jesus, brother of James (obviously there was some importance to acknowledging two rather "obscure" individuals in a very tempetuous time... and to remember them decades later, how ironic.

Of course the secular is not going to acknowledge some one as God. But, my friend, the author (s) acknowledge the existence of...

Let's see what the chronicles of "Pilot" have to say on the matter. :D

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
What it does say is that was a Jesus, brother of James (obviously there was some importance to acknowledging two rather "obscure" individuals in a very tempetuous time... and to remember them decades later, how ironic.

Of course the secular is not going to acknowledge some one as God. But, my friend, the author (s) acknowledge the existence of...

Let's see what the chronicles of "Pilot" have to say on the matter. :D

v/r

Q

Are you referring to the apocrypal Acta Pilati?

What's intrigueing to me is that when you remove all biographical stuff on Jesus with questionable authenticity you're left with almost nothing. So, how can we explain the Jesus phenomenon? I mean, on the one hand we have almost nothing verifiable to go on historically, but on the other we have this huge phenomenon of the influence of someone or something called Jesus. It's a real mystery.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Are you referring to the apocrypal Acta Pilati?

What's intrigueing to me is that when you remove all biographical stuff on Jesus with questionable authenticity you're left with almost nothing. So, how can we explain the Jesus phenomenon? I mean, on the one hand we have almost nothing verifiable to go on historically, but on the other we have this huge phenomenon of the influence of someone or something called Jesus. It's a real mystery.

Chris

Phenominal isn't it. We have historical reference that He existed, and that is it. But then we have this wonderful series of books that pre-empt his arrival, present His arrival, and proclude His arrival, yet still the world only marks his passage as a small dot of time, then moves on...yet He never dissappeared from our radar scope. He just got bigger and bigger and bigger, until 1/3rd of the world knows of Him 2000 years later, and as many profess to follow his teachings...

things that make you go Hmmm.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Phenominal isn't it. We have historical reference that He existed, and that is it. But then we have this wonderful series of books that pre-empt his arrival, present His arrival, and proclude His arrival, yet still the world only marks his passage as a small dot of time, then moves on...yet He never dissappeared from our radar scope. He just got bigger and bigger and bigger, until 1/3rd of the world knows of Him 2000 years later, and as many profess to follow his teachings...

things that make you go Hmmm.

v/r

Q

Another interesting thing to me, considering the "old within the new" concept of the connection between Old and New Testaments, is trying to figure out what constitutes the main story, and what is pre-logue, prologue, and, essentially, appendix material.

I think that the story really begins in in the books of Kings, specifically right here in 2nd Kings 22:8:

And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.

I think that the story ends with the "great commission."

Chris
 
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