I was reading a book on Philosophy awhile ago and it stated that "statistically it is better to belive in Jesus & God than not to. So basically, if somebody has worshipped all there life and there was Jesus and God then they have done good and are o.k, alternativley if Jesus & God don't exist then they have lost nothing and are still o.k" My question is that if somebody doesn't believe and have never worshipped in their life or anything what would happen to them if they died and Jesus and God did exist? Would they be punished and how please? Many thanks.
Punishment for non believers?
- Thread starter Penguin
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If Jesus preached that love is the number one commandiment...and G-d is all good and forgiving... me thinks you'll have another chance...of course that is only my opinion.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
There is a big range of thinking on this in Christianity, ranging from the "fire and brimstone" folks who believe that if you do not claim Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord, and follow Him faithfully, you'll go to hell, to people who believe God will save everyone by grace somehow, no matter how wicked they seem here on earth.
I don't pretend to know- I believe it's not my place to say who God forgives and who He does not.
I will say that the gospels (and entire NT, for that matter) have a variety of remarks on what gets one into the Kingdom of Heaven- including beliefs, thoughts, actions/deeds/works, attitude/character, etc.
I believe for myself that in following Jesus Christ, I am on a path toward becoming more unified with God. Jesus fills the gap between my sincere efforts and my mistakes (sin literally means "missing the mark").
I don't buy the philosophy argument. Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, then choosing daily to follow Him, to pick up one's cross and attempt to die to oneself, to let His light shine through into the world... it is not an easy path that one can take as a whim to avoid hell based on a philosophical argument. That is- it is sincere, heartfelt effort and love of Jesus that saves, not hedging one's bets. It is letting go of self interest, not embracing it.
Here again, you'll find a variety of Christian thoughts on the matter within a very wide spectrum of belief. Personally, I do not dwell on what heaven will be like or what happens when I die. At least for me, I received very strongly the message from the Spirit that I was not to focus on my gain but rather on serving others and God. I may be reincarnated or something for all I know (though I do hope for a brief rest in the arms of God!). The point is, I trust that if I have given my life to Jesus Christ and I sincerely follow Him, God will do with me what is best for me and the rest of His creation. And I would desire nothing else, for God knows me better than I know myself.
I don't pretend to know- I believe it's not my place to say who God forgives and who He does not.
I will say that the gospels (and entire NT, for that matter) have a variety of remarks on what gets one into the Kingdom of Heaven- including beliefs, thoughts, actions/deeds/works, attitude/character, etc.
I believe for myself that in following Jesus Christ, I am on a path toward becoming more unified with God. Jesus fills the gap between my sincere efforts and my mistakes (sin literally means "missing the mark").
I don't buy the philosophy argument. Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, then choosing daily to follow Him, to pick up one's cross and attempt to die to oneself, to let His light shine through into the world... it is not an easy path that one can take as a whim to avoid hell based on a philosophical argument. That is- it is sincere, heartfelt effort and love of Jesus that saves, not hedging one's bets. It is letting go of self interest, not embracing it.
Here again, you'll find a variety of Christian thoughts on the matter within a very wide spectrum of belief. Personally, I do not dwell on what heaven will be like or what happens when I die. At least for me, I received very strongly the message from the Spirit that I was not to focus on my gain but rather on serving others and God. I may be reincarnated or something for all I know (though I do hope for a brief rest in the arms of God!). The point is, I trust that if I have given my life to Jesus Christ and I sincerely follow Him, God will do with me what is best for me and the rest of His creation. And I would desire nothing else, for God knows me better than I know myself.
Well, this is of one things that cause us Christians to be diveded. Some, like angelicals and Bathtist belive that those who do not belive Jesus is the son of god will go to hell, But other, like my self, belive jesus death made salvaotion possibal for all humans, meaning even the Athist can get into heaven threw there actions and finaly there are libarls who say that there is no hell but that it is somthing of our own making. that was vary short vreson of what some Chruchs belive, fell free to ask if there is still you dont understand.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I believe, as a Christian, that our "salvation" is wrapped up in our relationship with God. I believe it was Christ's purpose to lead us to a right relationship with God, stripped away from legalistic obedience and into an obedience of love. He demonstrated with His Life what that entailed, as one who loved God and His neighbor. We ought to, as one who are Christlike, imitate what He did and how He lived. The command to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love our neighbor (including our enemy), should be our goal for it epitomizes the Law and the Prophets. We should always strive for that goal. And where we fall short, we have Christ's sacrifice as the basis of forgiveness to maintain our relationship with God and others.
I don't think you can approach this issue lightly. It is the responsibility for everyone to obey God in love. I think it would be unhealthy to try to play religion with God.
That said, I think that anyone, regardless of religious affiliation, that if he/she strives to fulfill this basic commandment will find mercy and grace from God. My feeling is that if one finds what God wants for your life, albeit another religious orientation, then God is going to take all things into consideration. We all have a conscience about how we are supposed to treat people.
Hell is merely seperation from God and the life He provides. If you are trapped in sin, then you will be consumed by it. The worm of sin will never die will and the fires of regret will never be quenched. That is true torment, though I do not discount a physical torment also.
"The best religion is the one that brings you closest to God" - Howard Storm
I don't think you can approach this issue lightly. It is the responsibility for everyone to obey God in love. I think it would be unhealthy to try to play religion with God.
That said, I think that anyone, regardless of religious affiliation, that if he/she strives to fulfill this basic commandment will find mercy and grace from God. My feeling is that if one finds what God wants for your life, albeit another religious orientation, then God is going to take all things into consideration. We all have a conscience about how we are supposed to treat people.
Hell is merely seperation from God and the life He provides. If you are trapped in sin, then you will be consumed by it. The worm of sin will never die will and the fires of regret will never be quenched. That is true torment, though I do not discount a physical torment also.
"The best religion is the one that brings you closest to God" - Howard Storm
Scripture states:
All will be judged according to their life (and works). It is a cast of the lots. Are we good enough? Or not?
v/r
Q
Edit: it is pretty cut and dry actually. Saved? Judged by your works (after being saved, since everything else is washed away, this is your reward). Not saved? Take your chances, and have your life judged by your works alone (determine if you even get into heaven).
That is the bottom line, according to Christian affairs.
my thoughts
v/r
Q
All will be judged according to their life (and works). It is a cast of the lots. Are we good enough? Or not?
v/r
Q
Edit: it is pretty cut and dry actually. Saved? Judged by your works (after being saved, since everything else is washed away, this is your reward). Not saved? Take your chances, and have your life judged by your works alone (determine if you even get into heaven).
That is the bottom line, according to Christian affairs.
my thoughts
v/r
Q
China Cat Sunflower
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Penguin said:
Well, I believe you're referring to Pascal's wager. If God and Jesus don't exist you've lost all that time you wasted believing in something that doesn't exist. You've wasted your mental capacity on blind obedience, and that effects everything in your life. Salvation shouldn't have to be a crapshoot where you have to decide to believe to hedge some eternal bet. If God really wants to mess with us like that he can send me to hell because I'm not going to stick my head in a bucket and just believe.
Chris
lunamoth
Episcopalian
I agree with China Cat that what you've stated here is a version of Pascal's wager. I think Path of One's post most closely reflects my own views on this. But with respect to the wager, and yes Chris I agree we should not stick our head in a bucket and 'just believe,' I think it is better spun positively: nothing to lose, everything to win. So, yes, I'll come out of my universalist closet and admit that I think that Christ's work of salvation and reconciliation is for all, regardless of belief. How can it be grace if you have to do the 'work' of somehow figuring out the exact right doctrinal belief? My take on it is that salvation is for now. How I reconcile all this with my equally firm belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Word, the Son of God, a Person of the Trinity, and the only Way is probably best left for another thread. And it does not matter to anyone else anyway.
So, long story short, no, there no punishment for non-believers. God does not want us to love him and each other out of fear of punishment or hope of reward. On our judgement day we will each be purified by the fire of the Spirit. But full reunion with our Lord awaits us all. (sorry for the melodrama, I'm a bit tired and typing fast).
lunamoth
So, long story short, no, there no punishment for non-believers. God does not want us to love him and each other out of fear of punishment or hope of reward. On our judgement day we will each be purified by the fire of the Spirit. But full reunion with our Lord awaits us all. (sorry for the melodrama, I'm a bit tired and typing fast).
lunamoth
China Cat Sunflower said:
Really. Youv'e wasted what? Being a decent human? Looking out for other than self? That is a waste? I suppose if there is nothing after death, then yes, it could be considered a waste, if you lived life in a wasteful way. If you live life in a non wasteful way, then at the very least, your name is carried on for a few generations. If you busted ass, then your life carries on for a century or more. But in the end, you what? dissappear?
Wow. Pascal was good at math, but I didn't think he was that good at stripping people of hope for something beyond the end of individual life...
(I know what you both mean...I hope you understand what I mean).
v/r
Q
p.s. Ecclisiasties seems to suit you .
China Cat Sunflower
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lunamoth said:
Actually, I would be interested in seeing how you reconcile your universalist and particularist leanings, Luna.
From the standpoint of the wager, I think it's silly to think that a person could believe in something without actually believing. What I mean is, you really can't hedge your bet by just going through the motions, unless you think God is that unaware that It won't notice you're just kinda faking it. So, either you really, really, really believe...or you don't. If you don't why fake it? What, you think you can fool God?
The Bible says a couple of interesting things which I don' have time to look up right now. One is that it is God's will that all come to a full and accurate knowlege of the truth, and that it is not God's will that even one person should be lost. The other is that when the Lamb opens his book of Life at the judgement, the names that are in there have been there from the "foundation of the world." Now, what does that imply? And how do we square that with the sheep being seperated from the goats?
Chris
China Cat Sunflower
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Quahom1 said:
I understand.
Chris
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Perhaps another time then Chris. Not tonight.China Cat Sunflower said:
No, you can't fool God. I'm not sure I'm fully understanding your point here. Of course one can only believe what they believe. But I can give my intellectual assent to the idea that there are more things in heaven and earth than can be measured by humans. I can give my heart's assent to the idea that there is Something More and from that Something More flows love. And I can realize that I could never replace the accumulated wisdom of a few millenia with my own feeble noodlings on the subject. I can trust that other's have had an experience, and that experience transformed them, and initiated the transformation of the world.
I like the couple of interesting things you've paraphrased above. My take, we are both sheep and goat.
lunamoth
China Cat Sunflower
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lunamoth said:
That's not so baaaaaaaaad!
Chris
lunamoth
Episcopalian
China Cat Sunflower said:
lunamoth
Episcopalian
China Cat Sunflower said:
With a little reflection I've realized that there is nothing at all 'tricky' about how I can be a Christian who believes in universal salvation. I'll try to type it quickly before I have to take my little one to preschool.
1. There is nothing in the creeds or catechism to contradict the idea of univseral 'salvation' when salvation refers to an ultimate reunion with God.
2. There is Biblical support, as you point out Chris, that God made us all God wants us all and God will get us all. Christ descended to the dead. This means He offered salvation to everyone. This means that after death, whether one lives/lived before or after the ministry of Chirst on earth, one is again offered relationship/reconciliation with God. The gift is free and God never puts the dollar back in His pocket, even when you meet Him at those pearly gates after a lifetime of atheism.
3. At the end of this life we will go to God as if through fire (sorry, but I don't have time to look this up from Paul). My understanding of this is our judgment, and it may be just my own take on this but I think it means we will get to see our whole life with perfect clarity and understanding of the results of our decision. I think we will see how our actions intentional and unintentional have helped and hurt others, and really how little control we had. I think we will experience and see the pain and suffering of life, while at the same time experiencing forgiveness. Talk about meltdown. I think some of us will be more prepared than others for that moment of judgment, but who will be the more prepared and who will be the less prepared I do not know. I choose to have faith that the Christian Way will prepare me.
4. Most important, I believe that salvation is for now. Eternal life is for now. As John said in his gospel, if you don't believe you are already condemned. Well, how does it feel? Heaven is nurturing our relationship with God and turning from sin. Hell is turning away from that relationship and the promise of hope. How one chooses to believe now affects our worldview, how we interact with others, and ultimately how the world goes.
He desires mercy not sacrifice. He came for the sinner, not for the righteous.
Hope this is not too blunt. Gotta run.
lunamoth
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Here, here, Luna. Great post...
Great post...
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Yeah, what Path said! That was a keeper Ms. Moth. Straight from the heart.
But look, what do we do with all the other texts that are going so far as to list the kinds of people headed for hell? You know: those with "unnatural" affections, liars (ouch, that's gonna be a lot of teeth gnashers there), etc.? How about rich people trying to fit their modern day camels through the eye of that needle? And then there's the Kingdom, and Heaven, and the Kingdom of Heaven...is heaven a shire of the Kingdom of Heaven, or vice-versa? And Hell, Gehenna, Sheoul...is that like Gaza, the West Bank, and Hebron?
I like the idea of Christ as the Logos. That's kinda my entry point. Now, you know that the Logos is...well, pretty much the same thing as the Tao, right? I mean the Way...and all. The Logos is the Word: the expressed concept. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. That's the Logos!
I don't think, though, that the Logos can be a person except anthropomorphically, so I see Jesus as a character in a story about the nature of the Logos. Jesus who played the Christ, I guess. That doesn't diminish the importance of the Logos IMO.
I like metaphysics. I like to think of metaphysics as being the philosophical side of physics--quantum and classical. There's a lot of foo-foo in metaphysics, so I look out for that. I like the universality of metaphysics and metaphysical cosmology. I find that a lot of those old dudes like Pythagoras and Lao Tzu were talking about a lot of cool stuff...like the Logos.
Chris
But look, what do we do with all the other texts that are going so far as to list the kinds of people headed for hell? You know: those with "unnatural" affections, liars (ouch, that's gonna be a lot of teeth gnashers there), etc.? How about rich people trying to fit their modern day camels through the eye of that needle? And then there's the Kingdom, and Heaven, and the Kingdom of Heaven...is heaven a shire of the Kingdom of Heaven, or vice-versa? And Hell, Gehenna, Sheoul...is that like Gaza, the West Bank, and Hebron?
I like the idea of Christ as the Logos. That's kinda my entry point. Now, you know that the Logos is...well, pretty much the same thing as the Tao, right? I mean the Way...and all. The Logos is the Word: the expressed concept. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light. That's the Logos!
I don't think, though, that the Logos can be a person except anthropomorphically, so I see Jesus as a character in a story about the nature of the Logos. Jesus who played the Christ, I guess. That doesn't diminish the importance of the Logos IMO.
I like metaphysics. I like to think of metaphysics as being the philosophical side of physics--quantum and classical. There's a lot of foo-foo in metaphysics, so I look out for that. I like the universality of metaphysics and metaphysical cosmology. I find that a lot of those old dudes like Pythagoras and Lao Tzu were talking about a lot of cool stuff...like the Logos.
Chris
lunamoth
Episcopalian
China Cat Sunflower said:
Good post China Cat, and I like your take on the Tao/Way/Logos. Something to ponder. But, I'm too fried tonight to respond in any intelligent manner (excuses excuses). Catch ya later! luna
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Well, I think those show a very human Paul trying to put a community together.China Cat Sunflower said:
Oh, I think I could get into a thread on the Kingdom of God, one of my very favorite topics.
Love.
Well, we're human and we're always going to be limited to anthropomorphological understandings of God. That doesn't mean that God is limited by us. I disagree with you, the Logos was a Person in Christ. What could be a more perfect expression of the Logos than Love personified for us to see, touch, hear? We may not understand God but He understands us, and in His mercy knows how to reach us.
I don't know much about metaphyscis, or physics. I am strictly an amature, but I am interested and I like to read.
Nite,
lunamoth
Say it isn't so...we can't always be anthropopathetic! The chapel ceiling and the vestiges of Greek and Roman Gods cannot continue to cause us such strife. Even our medical institutions are starting to accept energetic healing techniques, acupuncture...techniques that rely on meridians and energy fields and life forces that they cannot yet see or define. Why must we be confined by making G-d in our image?lunamoth said: