My recent visit to a Muslim Center

Discussion in 'Islam' started by subculture_of_one, May 1, 2006.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    :eek: the wiki article on the NLFT is scary stuff, if true all Christians should be seperating themselves from this organization.

    I've read the Wahabbi Myth.. But it did not identify what the House of Saud actually promotes today.. It indicates most terrorists including Osama Bin Laden are Qutbists, (are Qutbists Sunni or are Sunni Qutbists or are they like cousins?) Is House of Saud Qutbist, Sunni or Salifi or something else?

    Is there a chart somewhere on history of the creation of the various sects in Islam?
     
  2. Yaqinud Din

    Yaqinud Din Well-Known Member

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    Saudi Arabia is a Salafi state some of the royal family have said they are Salafi but I'm not sure how many truly are so I can only take them on their word.

    No they are not Sunnis. You can read about Sayyid Qutb at Salafi publications just go to Callers & Individuals on the site.

    Not that I know of but Salafi Publications has some very good stuff about Shia and other deviated groups just go to deviated groups :)

    Hope this helps

    Allah knows best.
     
  3. inhumility

    inhumility Active Member

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    Only God knows who has what faith.If you can take Saudi a Salfi on on their word,why can't you take others on their word,which would be more logical,moral and spiritual on your part?
     
  4. Yaqinud Din

    Yaqinud Din Well-Known Member

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    I take some of the royal familys word when they say they are Salafi because I don't know them or what they believe so when thet say we are Salafi I take their word. You on the other hand I know what you believe and I know what your so called Prophet believed.
     
  5. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    we're not talking about christianity at the moment, though; we're talking about islam. i am not interested in discussing what the western media think of islam, but rather asking muslims instead. i think that's also a fair enough thing to do - and the question remains.

    yeah, i've heard that before. i mean wahhabi in the sense of "follower of the teachings of muhammad ibn abd al-wahhab". you presumably equate this with calling yourself "salafi" - ok then, for the purposes of this discussion, we can agree that the school of thought we are talking about is the salafis.

    now, as to the question under discussion, you refer us to the quote from this shaikh salih al-fawzaan. the thing is, this shaikh is, again, a salafi, interpreting a statement of the prophet muhammad, in which he identifies the group he belongs to as being the authentic muslims out of the "73 sects" and says that everyone else is "in the hellfire". but this is still opinion! i am sure you as a salafi consider it authoritative, but i am sure that sufis and shia, to say nothing of non-salafi sunnis, would take issue with this. the other argument you make is that you guys do what the companions of muhammad did and everyone else doesn't. now, again, i'm sure the other sects say exactly the same! which brings us back to square one and you no closer to making any other point than "sez us".

    again, we're not talking about judaism. we're talking about islam. if you want to talk about judaism as well (i am perfectly happy to) we'll have to move board - feel free to start a thread over on the judaism board! why not address the question i asked and forget that i'm jewish for the moment? it was a fair enough question.

    to save you the trouble and since you brought it up, i feel your point deserves rebuttal. jews for jesus bring stuff from outside of judaism (ie christianity) to try and redefine judaism for jews. they are, as we have already pointed out elsewhere, funded by evangelist christians and are known to be christians in disguise. likewise, the history of the karaite schism is well known. the essential difference is this - *we*, in particular *i*, orthodox or not, do *not* say that all jews who disagree with me (like dauer, for instance) are going to hell. the only sort of jews that say that sort of thing are extreme chasidic groups like the satmar and they are hardly representative, either numerically or influentially. more to the point, jews don't physically attack members of other jewish sects, let alone murder each other or bomb each other's synagogues. in fact we are not even excluded from marrying each other - even karaites! (although i think the beit din might have something to say about a j4j!) perhaps this is because we are accustomed to the idea that we are not the exclusive possessors of the Truth. nor do we say that other people's scriptures are falsified or corrupt.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  6. aburaees

    aburaees Well-Known Member

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    It's been my perspective that Salafis are the Islamic equivalent of the Jehovah's Witnesses;
    • Both movements claim to be returning to the pure religion that everyone else has diverged from.
    • Calling oneself a Salafi or a Jehovah's Witness is a contemporary practice, dating no further back than the 18th and 19th centuries respectively.
    • Neither the earliest Muslims nor the earliest Christians were in the practice of using such labels.
    .
     
  7. Yaqinud Din

    Yaqinud Din Well-Known Member

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    Your right me and you are not talking about it me and will are so you can see your way out of are talk on this.




    I do not follow Sheikh-ul-Islam Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhab I follow the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions as did Sheikh Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhab.



    I will now bring proof that Shia and Sufi are non Muslims from their own books and from their Leaders words. I will start with Shia

    First because some will say Shia don't believe this I will be useing their own book Al-Kafi so here is a list of some of the great Shia Scholars saying this book is reliable.

    AlHur Al'amily said "The authors of the Four Books of shia (Al-Kafi , AlIstibsaar , AlTahzeeb , Mun La YahDuruHu Alfaqeeh) have testified that the Hadiths of their books are accurate (saheeh) , firm and well conducted from the roots that all shia agreed on , and if you consider those scholars (the authors of the four books) are reliable then you must accept their sayings and their narrations . " [Alwasa'el , volume 20 , page 104]

    Sharaf'Deen AbdulHussain Mosawy said: "Al-Kafi, AlIsTibSaar, AlTahzeeb and Mun La YahduRuHu Alfaqeeh are *MutawaTirah* and agreed on the accuracy of its contents (the Hadiths) , and Al-Kafi is the oldest , greatest , best and the most accurate one of them " . [The book of AlMuraja'aat , Muraj'ah number 110 ] ..... MutawaTirah = accurate 100% because it was narrated by many narrators .

    Muhammad Sadiq AlSaDr said : " Although The Shia are on the unanimity of that The four books (Al-Kafi , AlIsTibSaar , AlTahzeeb and Mun La YahduRuHu Alfaqeeh) are accepted and *all* the narrations in them are accurate ( Saheeh ), But they did not call them by the name (Sihaah ) like AhlSunnah did." [The Book of shia "Kitab alshia" page 127 ]

    AlTabRassy said: "Al-Kafi among the four shia books (AlTahzeeb , Al-Kafi , AlIsTibSar , mun la YahDuruhu Alfaqeeh) is like the sun among the stars , and who looked fairly would not need to notice the position of the men in the chain of hadiths in this Book , and if you looked fairly you would feel satisfied and sure that the hadiths are firm and accurate." [MusTaDrak AlWasa'el, volume 3 , page 532]

    AlKhomeini said: "Do you think it is enough for our religious life to have its laws summed up in Al-Kafi and then placed upon a shelf?" [Al-Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah page 72]


    The Imams have knowledge of All that was given to the angels and the prophets. ( Al-Kafi vol.1 p.255 )

    The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. ( Al-Kafi vol.1 p.258 )

    The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. ( Al-Kafi vol.1 p.260 )



    "Bad'ah" ALLAH tells a lie. (Al Kafi, Vol. No.1, Page No. 148. A Shia doctrine.)

    We are the eyes of the God in his creature and the final authority in all human beings. (Al Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 145)
    The Hujjat (Ultimate proof) of God can not be established without Imam. (Al Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 177)

    "Obedience to `Ali is true humility and disobedience to him is disbelief in Allah" (Al-Kafi vol.10 p.54)

    "Whoever sets up another Imam besides `Ali and delays `Ali's caliphate is a polytheist" (Al-Kafi vol.10 p.55)


    Sahabah (R.H) became infidel by denying the divine right (Wilayat) of Hazrat Ali. First three caliph and other Sahabas became infidel by denying the divine right of (Wilayat) of Hazrat Ali. (Al Kafi, Page No. 420)


    Imam posses more attribute than a Prophet posses. (Al-Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 388)


    All Imams are equal in rank and status to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s). (Al Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 270)
    The false verse "And We made `Ali your in-law" has been added to Surah Al-InShirah . ( Al-Kafi p.289 )

    Alkileeni reported that Jabir asked AbuJa`far p.b.u.h : "Why `Ali ibn Aby Talib was named Amir-ul-Mumineen?" AbuJa`far replied: "Allah named him so, and He revealed in His Book " And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed and made them testify as to themselves (saying): Am I not your Lord, Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen ?..." (Al-Kafi vol.1 p.412)


    What is the Aqeedah of the Shia

    Allaah often lies and does mistakes." (USOOL-E-KAAFI, page #328, yaqoob kulaini, vol 1).

    The Imams have knowledge of all the revealed books, regardless of the languages in which they were revealed. " (Al- Kulaini. AL- KAAFI, p.260)

    No one complied the Qur'ân completely except the Imams, and they encompass all of its knowledge. " (Al- Kulaini. AL- KAAFI, p.227)

    "The person who says that the present Quran is complete is a liar because the “complete Quran” was compiled by Hazrat Ali" (Fasl-ul-khitaab fee tahreef kitaab rab-ul- arbab, page #4, Noori Tibri).

    Their was a spilt in shia the first group of shia still believe this they are Akbaris see the link to the Akbari website go to rejection of the Usuli sect http://www.akhbari.org/English/1.htm

    The Munafiqeen (i.e. Sahaba) took very much out of Quran (took out the verses)." (Ihtijaj-e-tibri, page #382).

    When Imaam Mehdi comes he will bring with him the real and original Quran." (Ahsan-ul-maqaal, page #336, safdar Husain najfi).

    There is not a single truth possessed by a people saved that which originated with the Imams, and everything which did not proceed from them is false." (Al- Kulaini. AL- KAAFI, p.399)

    Neither we believe the Allah nor the Prophet of the God whose khalifah is Abu Bakr." (Anwar-ul-nomania, page #278).





     
  8. Yaqinud Din

    Yaqinud Din Well-Known Member

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    I will get to the Sufi as soon as I can. it sould be said that not all Shia or all Sufis are out of the Fold of Islam but I would say 98% are.
     
  9. Yaqinud Din

    Yaqinud Din Well-Known Member

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    I know that not all sufi believe as the Naqshbandi but alot of them hold the same view the fact I don't have the time to post everything that is wrong with all sufi sand all sects just like you don't have the time to read it all.

    THE NAQSHBANDIYATAREEQAH UNVEILED

    THE ISLAAMIC BELIEF: Allaah is the Only Truth

    Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says in the Qur'ân -

    "That is because Allaah - He is the Truth and it is He who gives life to dead." (Qur'ân, Chapter 22, Verse 6)

    Banana I will get to the reat of your post soon.

    THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Aba Yazid al-Bistami is the Truth
    On page 15 of the book ‘The Naqshbandi Way’ it reads -

    "Whoever recites this Ayah even a single time will attain a high rank and a great position, … he will get what the Prophets and saints could not get, and will arrive at the stage of Aba Yazid al-Bistami, the Imam of the order who said: "I am the Truth (al-Haqq)."

    The above statement ‘I am the Truth’ - is a clear example of Shirk (association) in the aspect of the Names and Attributes of Allaah, since Al-Haqq in the definite form, is one of Allaah’s unique attributes and is not shared by any created being or thing unless preceded by the prefix `Abd meaning "Slave of" or "Servant of". (In fact the Mystic al-Hallaaj was publicly executed as an apostate for daring to openly claim divinity in his infamous pronouncement "Anal-Haqq"- I am the Truth.)

    THE ISLAAMIC BELIEF: None shares with the command of Allaah

    Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says in the Qur'ân -

    Verily, His (Allaah’s) command, when He intends a thing, is only that he says to it, "Be! And it is!" - (Chapter 36, Verse 82); and in another place in the Qur'ân, Allaah says =

    "They have no protector other than Him (Allaah); nor does He share His command with any person whatsoever." - (18:26)

    THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Sheikh shares with the command of Allaah

    On page 33 of the book ‘Mercy Oceans - Part 1’, it reads "The Power of the wali is such that he only needs to say Kun (be) and that will be."

    The above is another example of Shirk (association) in the aspect of the Lordship of Allaah, since the Islaamic principle of the Lordship of Allaah states that no created being can share in God’s attributes and infinite qualities, and any attempt to give the Divine attributes to creation is referred to as Shirk (association), the antithesis of Tawheed (singling out Allaah alone for worship).

    THE ISLAMIC BELIEF:
    None could attain the Rank of the Prophets or their Companions

    The Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) has said in a well known Hadith that, "The best of people are those living in my generation, and then those who will follow them, and then those who will follow the latter (Saheeh Bukhaaree, Vol 5, Hadith #3, Arabic-English Trans.)

    THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Certain people could attain a Rank higher than the Prophets and their Companions.

    On page 1 of the book ‘The Naqshbandi Way’ it reads,

    "Our master the Sheikh says that a person who manages to act on these principles in our times will achieve what earlier generations did not achieve … he who attains an exalted stage and a great rank, such a rank which the Prophets themselves and the companions were unable to attain."

    On page 4 of the book ‘the Naqshbandi Way’ it reads

    "Especially those who hold to the Prophet’s Sunnah, will attain special stations that weren’t opened to earlier people - not even to the Prophet’s companions.’

    The deviant claim of attaining the rank which the Prophets could not is a major deception of the Naqshbandiya as any Muslim with even the basic knowledge of Islaam will confirm. As regards the companions (May Allaah be pleased with them all), the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) in a hadith narrated by Anas bin Maalik (Radhiallaahu Anhu) said -

    "After me, you will see others given preference to you, so be patient till you meet me."

    Saheeh Bukhaaree, Vol 5., Hadith #137, Arabic-English Trans.)

    He (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) also said in reference to his Companions (May Allaah be pleased with them all)

    "For by Him in Whose hand is my soul, if you were to spend the like of Uhud or of the mountains in gold, you would not reach their actions." (Saheeh Bukhaaree)

    THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: Allaah is above the heavens

    Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says in the Qur'ân -

    "Do you feel secure, that He (Allaah), who is above the heavens, will not cause the earth to sink with you." (Qur'ân, Chapter 67, Verse 16).

    And in a long Hadith found in Saheeh Muslim, it is narrated that the companion Mu`awiyah ibn al-Hakam, (Radhiallaahu Anhu) slapped his servant girl who used to tend his sheep, and as a result when to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) and asked what should be done as an atonement for having slapped her. The Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) replied, "Bring her to me" so Mu`awiyah brought her to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam). The Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) then asked her, "Where is Allaah?" and she replied "Above the Sky" then the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam ) asked her, "Who am I?" and she replied, "You are Allaah’s Messenger", so the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) said, "Free her, for verily she is a true believer." (Saheeh Muslim, Vol 1, Hadith #1094, English Translation)

    THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Allaah is Everywhere
    On page 13 of the book Haqiqat ul Haqqani it reads


    "Allaah Almighty is everywhere but specially in the Baitullaah as He has Himself called it the house of Allaah. For it to be called the house of the Lord, the Lord of the house must be in it."

    The concept of Allaah being everywhere is not Islaamic as the above Qur’aanic Aayah and the authentic hadith confirm. Indeed if Allaah was everywhere then there would be no need for the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) to go up through the seven skies on the night of Mi`raaj to meet Allaah - he would have been in the direct presence of Allaah in his very own house.

    THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: None has the knowledge of the Last Day except Allaah

    Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says in the Qur'ân

    Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allaah (alone)." (31:34)

    And according to the well known Hadith, where Angel Jibreel (`alaihis salaam) came in the guise of man, we quote the part of the Hadith that is relevant to our matter, after asking about Islaam, Imaan and Ihsaan, Angel Jibreel (`alaihis salaam) asks Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) "then tell me about the hour (meaning the last day)", the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) replied, "The one questioned about it knows no better than the questioner. (Saheeh Muslim, vol 1, Hadith #4, English Translation)

    THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Sheikh has the knowledge of the Last Day.

    In the beginning of page 19 of the book ‘Mercy Oceans - part one’, it reads -

    These signs have been given us indication that the Last Day is coming is nearly exactly now …we shall witness that great event within two years."

    The above book (Mercy Oceans) was published in 1987 and it I almost nine years since its publication, but the last day is still not witnessed. How could it be when indeed Allaah has clearly stated in the Qur'ân,

    "Say None in the heavens and the earth knows the unseen except Allaah."(Qur'ân, Chapter 27, Verse 65)

    THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: Believers and disbelievers are not equal.

    Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says in the Qur'ân - the likeness of the two parties (disbelievers and believers) is as the blind and the deaf and the seer and the hearer. Are they equal when compared? Will you not then take heed?" (Qur'ân, Chapter 11, Verse 24)

    THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Believers and disbelievers are equal
    On page 12 of the book ‘the Naqshbandi Way’, it reads ,


    Allaah does not distinguish between the non-believer and the faasiq (wrong doer) or between a believer and a Muslim. In fact they are all equal to him."

    Furthermore, on page 16 of the same book it reads, "Allaah does not distinguish between a kaafir or a hypocrite or between a saint and a Prophet."

    THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: No intermediary between Allaah and Man
    Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says in the Qur'ân,
    "And when My servants ask you (O Muhammad) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them in knowledge), I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me."(Qur'ân, Chapter 2, Verse 186)


    THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Sheikh is intermediary between Allaah and Man
    On page 23 of the book Haqiqat ul Haqqani it reads,


    "If there wasn’t Mowlana Sheikh Nazim between us and Sayyidunâ Mahdi (Alai), or between us and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Sal), or between us and Allaah Almighty, no one would be able to reach to Divine knowledge… this is because Maulana Sheikh Nazim is the intermediary between us and these stations."

     
  10. Yaqinud Din

    Yaqinud Din Well-Known Member

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    Thats what I'm saying the so called groups are doing the same as Jews for Jesus (pbuh) they are bringing new teaching in to Islam and I look at my post on shia and Sufi Naqshbandis

    Linguistically Bid'ah (innovation) means 'a newly invented matter'.

    The Sharee'ah definition of Bid'ah is: "A newly invented way [beliefs or action] in the religion, in imitation of the Sharee'ah (prescribed Law), by which nearness to Allaah is sought, [but] not being supported by any authentic proof - neither in its foundations, nor in the manner in which it is performed." Al-I'tisaam of ash-Shaatibee (1/37).

    The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Every innovation is misguidance and going astray" Reported by Abu Daawood (no. 4607), at-Tirmidhee (no. 2676) and it is saheeh. Ibn Hajr authenticated it Takhreej Ahaadeeth Ibn ul-Haajib (1/137).

    And he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "… and every innovation is misguidance and all misguidance is in the Hellfire." Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (1/224) from Jaabir bin Abdullaah and it is saheeh as declared by Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah in Majmoo' ul-Fataawaa (3/58).
    T
    he Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also warned against the People of Innovation, from befriending, supporting or taking from them saying: "Whoever innovates or accommodates an innovator then upon him is the curse of Allaah, His Angels and the whole of mankind." Reported by Bukhaaree (12/41) and Muslim (9/140)
    [/quote]

    [QUOTE]the essential difference is this - *we*, in particular *i*, orthodox or not, do *not* say that all jews who disagree with me (like dauer, for instance) are going to hell. the only sort of jews that say that sort of thing are extreme chasidic groups like the satmar and they are hardly representative[/quote]

    I have talked with non Hasidic Orthodox Jews so I know what you have said is false alot of Orthodox Jews don't like or even hate Reform Jews. You seem to want to paint a picture that all the Jewish sect get along lol what a joke.

    Bloomberg/April 26, 2006


    Bloomberg -- The battle over a $500 million religious empire, marked by beatings, break-ins and a street riot, likely will escalate with yesterday's death of Grand Rabbi Moses Teitelbaum, leader of the ultra-orthodox Satmar sect of Hasidic Jews.

    Teitelbaum, 91, died at Manhattan's Mount Sinai Hospital. He had been suffering from spinal cancer and other ailments.

    Two of his sons, Aaron and Zalman, have waged a five-year legal battle seeking to control the main congregation's board, each working to succeed their father at the head of the largest Hasidic sect, based in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. At stake is control of synagogues, real estate, businesses, religious schools and the jobs and social services that go with them.
    ``
    This is a fight over power, prestige and patronage,'' said David Pollock, an official with the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York who has worked with the Satmars for the past 20 years. ``Violence has broken out when the legal outcome is unclear, which it is now.'' The insular community was founded in Williamsburg after World War II by the brothers' grand uncle, Joel Teitelbaum, who fled Romania to escape the Nazis. Hasidism, or pietism, arose in the Jewish ghettoes of late 18th century Eastern and Central Europe. Satmar men wear fur hats, beards, white shirts and black or dark blue suits with jackets that hang to their knees.

    This will be my last post on this because like I said I'm not going to go over and over with you because it gets me know where I could post every sects wrong believes and you still would not agree with me so this is a waste of my time.
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    FYI when everything is bolded nothing is bolded

    when one chooses a font which increases the difficulty of reading, less are likely to read

    So if one is working to convey a thought, it is most beneficial to make it easy for the other parties to read and understand.
     
  12. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    sheesh, can't you write in a normal font? you're making my eyes ache.

    with all due respect, that is pure semantics. i'm not accusing you of shirk! why are you splitting hairs about abd al-wahhab? is he not a reliable and trustworthy authority?

    now, to the shia (and it would have been nice for you to actually edit this stuff, or even summarise it, as opposed to a ginormous quote job - and a lot of this looks like it's a direct paste from salafi 101). so, if i understand you correctly, the shia consider this book "al-kafi" and the other three books to be authoritative, thereby making the authors reliable - and it contains statements that you consider to be problematic. fair enough, i can see why you'd object to the ones you've quoted, particularly the ones about the alid succession and the esoteric doctrine of the imam. the thing is, i can't see how you could justify saying that they are not muslims. they would certainly call themselves muslims - it seems to me unnecessarily harsh and, moreover, a matter of opinion - they also seem to say the same thing about the 73 sects and identify themselves as the correct group. and, more to the point, i can see why you'd think the shi'a are wrong, but not why the salafis are therefore the *only* group who are correct.

    as for the sufis, again, i can see why you'd have a problem with the things you quote - but only if you take it really, really literally. i think, for example, you are hairsplitting when you categorise a naqshbandi utterance as a belief that the sheikh's actions are not part of the Divine process, whereas the development and application of fiqh are not in some sense a continuation of a similar Divine process, that of the revealed Qur'an. it seems to me that you're failing to appreciate the *metaphorical richness and poetry* of the texts concerned, which seems crazy considering the outstanding , even unique, poetic qualities of the Qur'an itself! in particular here i think your insistence that "G!D Is above the sky" suggests that there are places in which G!D Is not - and this to me is far more problematic in terms of tawhid, which is a principle of judaism as well as islam. it also seems to me that if someone can be demonstrated to be wrong - as the "last day" question would seem to indicate, that this ought not to disqualify them from being called a muslim - which brings me to my other quibble.

    this other quibble is with inflexibility. it seems to me that there is a question about reliability for given authors. if a given scholar is 99% reliable, is that the same as him being *un*reliable? say muhammad sadiq al-sadr or khomeini, for example - can you consider them muslims or are they apostates? can you abide by a ruling of theirs, or does a single mistaken, unreliable or incorrect opinion disqualify them entirely? is someone either right or wrong? is it not possible, say, to consider the two figures i refer to as authoritative in non-theological fields? are they - or any other non-salafi scholar - worthy of respect and study? and, if so, doesn't that mean that the 'umma is basically just the salafis and that the rest, even if not kafir, are to be considered as equivalent to dhimmi? i believe something like that is the position of shi'a in, say, saudi arabia. is that correct? in judaism, of course, we record our disagreements, including the minority opinions, in case one day they become the authoritative majority opinions. famous and authoritative scholars such as rashi, maimonides, nahmanides and ibn ezra are routinely criticised and corrected by each other and their disagreements can get pretty severe - but nobody would dream of calling someone else an "apostate" or "infidel" or whatever. it's simply taken to be an incorrect decision which can be reversed.

    now, to the j4j similarity or otherwise. thank you for including your definition of bid'ah - it's very helpful. i would absolutely agree with you in terms of how it applies to them. however, it may be helpful to point out that judaism does not discourage *all* innovation per se - just innovation that is, as you say "not supported by any authentic proof - neither in its foundations, nor in the manner in which it is performed." for example, the prosbul of hillel, which allows loans to be made over the sabbatical year, or the introduction of relatively new fasts and holidays, like hannukah. these sorts of things, agreed by the consensus of the community, are considered to be permissible innovations, just as the modern electrical devices such as time-switches and hotplates can be employed to improve the observance of the Sabbath. i believe there are numerous examples of this kind of beneficial innovation in islam as well, so the translation of "bid'ah" as innovation tout court i think is incorrect and, incidentally, allows obscurantists to label anything they don't like, particularly anything modern, as an "innovation". i think it's cutting off your nose to spite your face and, moreover, i find it impossible to believe that a man so inspired and outstanding as muhammad, let alone that G!D would prohibit *all* innovation.

    not at all. and, yes, the jewish community is extremely divided, which is a terrible problem - our sages say that the Temple was destroyed because of sinat hinam - baseless hatred. however, in many organisations, reform, conservative and orthodox jews are able to work together, quite apart from living together, being friends and so on, so the fact that you may have met orthodox jews that hate reform jews is hardly conclusive or even particularly representative. i myself am from a reform family, grew up reform and would now be considered quite orthodox; whilst i would certainly point to numerous examples of prejudice on both sides, it is almost never anything worse than a snide remark. as for the struggle over r. teitelbaum's inheritance, that's not news to me - it's actually an internal satmar struggle, so not about different sects. the point is that the violence involved is mostly verbal, with the occasional bout of fisticuffs. unpleasant as this may be, i don't think you can equate this with, say, death squads, sectarian murder and the bombing of mosques. there simply isn't moral equivalence and to suggest that this squalid little power struggle in a chasidic sect is as bad as, say, blowing up that mosque in najaf, is quite ridiculous. i do not have rose-coloured spectacles as far as jewish communal politics are concerned, but discrimination is not the same as murder. i do not advocate anything but respect for all jewish denominations from liberal to ultra-orthodox, nor do the vast majority. you may very well and fairly enough point out that it is only a tiny minority of extremists that behave like that, but the fact remains that we do not have an equivalent.

    apart from this last paragraph, i am very much enjoying this conversation and have learned a great deal. thank you.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     

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