Censorship

Discussion in 'Islam' started by cyberpi, Jun 19, 2006.

  1. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    So my former thread silently disappears. Again, I seek and inquire understanding with the following questions:

    What are the Qur'an verses or Hadith that call for or support censorship?
    Is a Kafir not a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth? Is that not a person who censors?
    Doesn't even the smallest of infants who have learned very little of this world still have a truth to tell?
    Doesn't even the vile, the liar, the thief, the rapist, the murderer who has or might do wrong in this world still have a truth to tell?
    Should there be a human punishment for censoring a truth?
    Should there be a human punishment for telling a lie?

    Any person with any opinion or insight with Islam please respond. Thank you.
     
  2. inhumility

    inhumility Active Member

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    Your previous thread is still showing but it has been moved to Feedback.
    Nevertheless I would request you to repeat your specific question which you had asked from some other forum which has not been answered by them.May be some learned person here could answer it.
    Thanks
     
  3. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    If my post was feedback then it was feedback for anyone who has been censored or banned... hopefully not from this forum. There is limited feedback for the person who censors. I saw some introspective free thinking here so I embelished and provided my thoughts on the subject... but I am seeking answers from those who claim also to be followers of Islam.

    To answer your question, I am not certain which question or judgement they censored me for because they did not have the courtesy or the words to explain why. I ask many questions and make many judgements, any number of which could upset them.

    I believe in the wisdom that I find in the Qur'an, and I believe the Messenger Muhammud (pbuh) helped deliver it, and I believe in one God (swt) and a last day; however, I read for myself and do not necessarily subscribe to the interpretations of others. If any interpretation of mine is not in accordance with the Qur'an, I wish to understand why anyone thinks so. There are many delusions in the world from ancestors, elders and misguided youth. For instance, I maintain the guidance from God (swt) is everlasting and can not to be shackled by man by claiming that there are no more messages via the Holy Spirit... I am confident of that.

    Here was my last posts on the website that I responded to. The thread was called: "Christians aren't disbelievers?" I replied to the thread with a judgement and a question. My judgement was that Christians are Muslims and that Muslims are Christians with insignificant difference. Insignificant meaning that some people from each may go to heaven or hell independent of those differences. By definition, a Muslim is one who submits to God, and by definition a Christian is one who follows the teaching of Jesus Christ (Isa, pbuh). Those are the same. For Jesus taught to love God with all of your heart, soul, and mind. Note that every bit of strength in the body literally passes through the heart. He further taught to love your neighbor as you do yourself. He also clearly taught that to love is to obey and keep one's commandments, among other things, and that his words were God's words. A Muslim not only follows the teaching of Jesus Christ (Isa, pbuh), but of other prophets as equals. The message of one prophet or messenger can not be dimished to suit another, because then it would be in violation of the Qur'an.

    On this alledged Islamic website, a moderator's reply included the common, "Son of God" argument, using it as a sword to difference themselves from Christians. I can not begin to explain what ancestors did with their Injil, Tawrat, or Zabur. If one ancestor lost a book or stood idly by while another ancestor rewrote a book that they believed in, then surely at least one ancestor is at fault. But I do know that through the Holy Spirit, all answers can be revealed. What is destroyed by the moth can be perfectly re-created. Nothing is ever truly lost. What our ancestors did from infancy to death is available in perfect detail. But that is another subject. We must contend with what our ancestors left for us in Truth.

    Having an alledged Christian upbringing and teaching, I know the bible to a familiar degree. The words from Isa (pbuh) are hard to corrupt, as they enforce the definition of some words despite everyone's efforts to bend them. There are differences between the four surviving gospels in the bible, but there is a commonality in the clear use of the terms, "Son of Man" and "Son of God". You could alledge that it is a conspiracy and that many people lied about Jesus (pbuh), or that it was written by the surviving parties... but all four testimonies of the Gospel use those phrases and even expand on them with parables.

    Of course I know the words in the Qur'an. It says God (swt) does not take children because essentially everything in the Universe belongs to God (swt). Many examples, for instance 23:91.

    So I replied with a judgement and a question: If you judge and convict any person who calls themselves a 'Son of God', then you also convict those who call themselves 'Brothers' and do know their common Father. My question was, "For those people, who is their father's Father?" I think that was the question someone censored me for, because on this website the Muslims there refer to each other as brothers and sisters of Islam, or alternatively as brothers and sisters of humanity. They make that distinction and ask you to reveal it. But by Justice if you have judged or convicted one then you have judged or convicted the other. In my life I have had many people call me a brother and have no qualms in calling them a brother or sister, be it a blood brother, step brother, brother in law, brother of Islam, brother in spirit, biological brother, or anything else.

    The truth of the matter was also revealed in the response of the moderator... probably the one who banned me. His response was, "We believe that God created Aadam (peace be upon him) and we are all descendants of Aadam, therefore all humans are related to us and this is why we call each other brothers and sisters." You see, he has used the word 'WE' in his reply three times with three different definitions. The first 'We' is the people that the moderator pretends to know and speak for, stating what 'we' believe in. The second 'We' is the people that the moderator pretends to speak of, essentially everyone. The third 'We' is the 'phalacy' with the division of 'we', insisting that 'we' call each other brothers and sisters, though it seems he was referring to the people of the website. You see, justice would have it that if the word 'We', 'Brother', or 'Sister' can have many different meanings even within the same sentence, then so can the word 'Son'. There is the answer for anyone who judges people so feebly over such a difference. I judge that the Qur'an has a different message using a different definition of the word 'Son'.

    I judge that anyone who uses the word 'We' to speak for a person that they have never met, communed with, known in spirit, known in flesh, seen, heard from, received a message from or even a vote from, suffers from the delusion of insisting that other souls must believe like them, think like them, or act like them. I can not place the religion or measurement of the world that teaches this because I have yet to read it or measure it myself... so surely it must be a misinterpretation. There are many governments and leaders of people who believe in that delusion, but they do not make it righteous. In any Abrahamic (pbuh) religion is the belief that the souls are to be divided someday by what they choose. You are judged for what you think and do, and I will be judged for what I think and do. God (swt) being the only just judge who sees all, hears all, and knows all. For example Ibrahim (pbuh) did not know Isa (pbuh) nor Muhammud (pbuh), but according to what is written he truly was a Muslim who submitted to God. I can only judge or act with what I can see because my spirit is confined for now and so is yourse unless you can see my thoughts without reading my words.
     
  4. PluckyAli

    PluckyAli Well-Known Member

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    They might be many.While reading Surah Nisa i find this verse
    "Allâh does not like that the evil should be uttered in public except by him who has been wronged. And Allâh is Ever All­Hearer, All­Knower"---Quran 4-148.

    Kafir=denier.One who denies the truth instead of accepting it.It's arabic equivalent of infidel to some extent.Not sure if it means one who hides the truth.
    Sure they might have.
    Sure they might have.

    personally,yes.Besides censoring a truth is a sin,there are few exceptions for e.g if there is fear of killing from the enemy.

    personally,yes.A lie is sin and is supposed to be a root of all problems but again there are exceptions.

    These were merely opinions which i believe are accurate.
     
  5. thipps

    thipps God Alone is Great

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    cyberpi,
    If you are going to continue on this train of comparison, I will move the thread to a more suitable forum section, then you can state all your christianized interpretations of the Quran without 'censorship'. Your move.
    thipps - Islam board moderator

    btw, If you have had the time to read the Quran, I would remind you of when the Quran says that those who call Jesus(pbuh) the son of God are blaspheming. Maybe you didnt come across that.
    regards,
    thipps.
     
  6. inhumility

    inhumility Active Member

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    I quote some excerpts from your post:
    • but I am seeking answers from those who claim also to be followers of Islam.
    • I believe in the wisdom that I find in the Qur'an, and I believe the Messenger Muhammud (pbuh) helped deliver it, and I believe in one God (swt) and a last day;
    • "Christians aren't disbelievers?" I replied to the thread with a judgement and a question. My judgement was that Christians are Muslims and that Muslims are Christians with insignificant difference.
    I agree with you that there is no difference in a true Muslim and in a true Christian, likewise I find no difference with True Jew, and true Buddhist, and True Hindu etc, if they submit to the will of God. If they are truthful, they are destined to be one in ONE GOD, and that is why dialogue is essential and must continue.
    • By definition, a Muslim is one who submits to God, and by definition a Christian is one who follows the teaching of Jesus Christ (Isa, pbuh). Those are the same. For Jesus taught to love God with all of your heart, soul, and mind.
    • Having an alledged Christian upbringing and teaching,
    • So I replied with a judgement and a question: If you judge and convict any person who calls themselves a 'Son of God',
    Here again I agree with you that Son of God is in Metaphoric/symbolic sense. I quote here from John 8
    “42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!” Unquote
    Jesus was talking in parables, as he was used to. He told the Jews of his time since they were telling lies so to him their father was devil or they were sons of the devil likewise Jesus was son of God, as he spoke truth.The whole matter gets clarifies truthfully.

    • why we call each other brothers and sisters." suffers from the delusion of insisting that other souls must believe like them, think like them, or act like them.
    • suffers from the delusion of insisting that other souls must believe like them, think like them, or act like them.
    • For example Ibrahim (pbuh) did not know Isa (pbuh) nor Muhammud (pbuh), but according to what is written he truly was a Muslim who submitted to God.
    I rather appreciate above excerpts from your post.
    I quote some verses from Quran.
    The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah [2:256] Allah - there is no god save Him, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that dare intercede with Him save by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them wearies Him not; and He is the High, the Great. [2:257] There is no compulsion in religion. Surely, the right way has become distinct from error; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing. All-Knowing. [2:258] Allah is the Friend of those who believe; He brings them out of all kinds of darkness into light. And those who disbelieve, their friends are the transgressors who brings them out of light into manifold darknesses. These are the inmates of the Fire, therein shall they abide.
    In the light of the above verses, I don’t think that there is any question of any censorship on your genuine and rationalized thinking. Islam does not put barriers on good thinking or good questions asked for understanding. If a person would ask questions and convinced by proper answers, only then he would be convinced at heart and mind, a very essential pre-requisite, and only then he would announce his allegiance to the will of God and submit before Him, that is his right which could not be denied to him.
    There might be some Moderator of some Islamic forum, by name only who does not understand these things and he had hurt your feeling. That Moderator needs to improve his thinking.
    Thanks
     
  7. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    Thank you PluckyAli. That there are things that Allah (swt) does not like is without question in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. That we should enjoin on each other truth and shun, deter, and distance ourselves from evil is also not a question. As I gather my verses together though, I'm going to show that condemning and censoring others over things that Allah (swt) is to judge and condemn for, is also evil. The issue is, none of us have the knowledge, hearing, or seeing to know the full story. We must have patience. When it is for Allah (swt) to judge and condemn, I maintain it is wrong for us to judge and condemn in his place. People can only judge from what they see and hear, and can only condemn within the eye for eye, showing mercy or forgiveness for those who repent. The Qur'an says even for idols, to shun but do not condemn lest you drive the people away from Allah (swt). I think the issue is matching the level of struggle with the opposed level of struggle, and not exceeding the limit.
     
  8. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    Wow... perhaps the issue is how many times one has misread the Qur'an? Are you able to add to the discussion here too, or do you just have the power to threaten and take away from it? Clearly you are pro-censorship. Please share your insight and verses that guide you. You mention censoring what you think is a Christianized interpretation... do you also censor the Qur'an where it says that the disciples of Christ (pbuh) were Muslim?

    Regarding 'a' son of God (swt), I disagree. If it is blasphemy, it is God's (swt) judgement. It is a different subject than censorship and I only shared it here because someone asked, so I will make a different thread to discuss those verses and you can move it to wherever you think sharing and discussing Islam is more appropriate. I suspect you are thinking of Trinity, saying that God (swt) is one of three.
     
  9. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    inhumility, thank you... being censored doesn't deflect me in the least. I certainly do need to learn more about the Ahmadi. Do they use the Injil, Zabur, and Tawrat for reference too... and if so, which text?

    I will share more on the son-of-God (swt) topic on a separate thread somewhere, but I like your explanation... people are judged by their own words and meanings. Yes, I seek the truth. Do you have any more insight for or against censorship? Generically and impersonally... when do you think it is appropriate and when is it innappropriate in Islam?
     
  10. inhumility

    inhumility Active Member

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    Hi! cybepi
    So, following three issues would come into our discussion as desired by you.
    · Ahmadi. Do they use the Injil, Zabur, and Tawrat for reference too... and if so, which text? (preferable in a separate thread also, originated by you)
    · son-of-God (swt) topic on a separate thread somewhere, originated by you
    · Do I have any more insight for or against censorship? Generically and impersonally... when do I think it is appropriate and when is it inappropriate in Islam?
    Presently we start from the last topic.
    First of all I want to tell you that English is not my mother language, my answer would be based on of what I understand from your post, if it is not relevant to whatever is in your mind, then you shall have further to elaborate of what you understand.
    I give hereunder more verses from Quran:

    Al-Najm[53:33] Those who shun the grave sins and all indecencies except minor faults. Verily, thy Lord is Master of vast forgiveness. He knows you well from the time when He created you from the earth, and when you were embryos in the bellies of your mothers. So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows him best who is truly righteous
    Al-Nur [24:20] Those, who love that indecency should spread among the believers, will have a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And Allah knows and you know not. [24:21] And but for the grace of Allah and His mercy upon you and that Allah is Compassionate and Merciful, you would have been ruined. [24:22] O ye who believe! Follow not the footsteps of Satan, and whoso follows the footsteps of satan should know that he, surely, enjoins indecency and manifest evil. And but for the grace of Allah and His mercy upon you, not one of you would ever be pure; but Allah purifies whom He pleases. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
    Chapter 23 Al-Mu'minun23:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful[23:2] Successful indeed are the believers, [23:3] Who are humble in their Prayers, [23:4] And who shun all that which is vain, [23:5] And who are prompt and regular in paying the Zakat, [23:6] And who guard their chastity -23:7] Except from their wives or what their right hands possess, for then they are not to be blamed; [23:8] But those, who seek anything beyond that are the transgressors -[23:9] And who are watchful of their trusts and their covenants, [23:10] And who are strict in the observance of their Prayers. [23:11] These are the heirs, [23:12] Who will inherit Paradise. They will abide therein for ever.
    Chapter 49 Al-Hujurat[49:13] O ye who believe! avoid much suspicion; for suspicion in some cases is a sin. And spy not on one another, neither back-bite one another. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Certainly, you would loath it. And fear Allah, surely, Allah is oft-Returning with compassion and is Merciful.
    Chapter 2 Al-Baqarah [2:190] They ask thee about the new moons. Say, 'They are means for measuring time, for the general convenience of people and for the Pilgrimage.' And it is not righteousness that you come into houses by the backs thereof, but truly righteous is he who fears God. And you should come into houses by the doors thereof; and fear Allah that you may prosper.
    Chapter 4 Al-Nisa'[4:60] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end.”unquote

    The owner of a private property (or a private enterprise) has also rights, so any person who wants to go inside it as a respected guest has to go from the lawful door, i.e. with permission of the owner and he would conduct himself there as per norms and or the rules of the owner. He cannot claim freedom at the expense of the other’s rights.
    If a person gives something to somebody in trust or for safe custody, the custodian/trustee has to return it to its original owner in the same condition normally as it was given.
    Notwithstanding the above, the law of the land has also to be observed.
    In case of a write-up or article given for publishing if it is understood and or previously agreed or as is sometimes customary, the publisher can edit it as per rules implied or agreed, though morally he should inform the contributor accordingly or if he does not agree as to its handling it should be disposed off as per the instructions of the contributor.
    This has been deduced from the above verses in good intentions; in case of any controversy the original verses should be consulted.
    Quran is a small book, may be of the size of the four gospels of the New Testament, under a unique systems it covers all the moral, temporal and spiritual matters or problems of man.
    Other religions/faiths could, if they so desire, explain the matter from their own books for comparison and reconciliation.
    Thanks
     
  11. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    As before, this is a discussion forum with rules of behaviour, and we have a great team who volunteer their time and effort in helping CR run smoothly and civilised. Attacking the staff because you would rather have things your own way is simply unacceptable - as in the other thread, you need to chill your attitude to stay here. I won't tell you again.

    Also, while inhumility is welcome to express an Ahmadi view, do be aware that Ahmadi is a minority viewpoint in Islam that may not be shared by more dominant Sunni, and even Shi'a, viewpoints. :)
     
  12. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    Again the same words: civilized, cool attitude, attack. I read through your code of conduct and I find no transgression on my part. I am tolerant of any viewpoint here because if I were intolerant then I would be censoring it, threatening to censor it, etc... That would be intollerance. That would be attacking it. You continue to claim that you and your admin are civil. Why? I'm not your judge. If you write down what civilized and cool attitude actually mean to you in your code of conduct I will be happy to obey or discuss it as a religion. But otherwise your judgement means nothing to me other than you don't like to hear what I said.

    It is doubtful that I will respect your definition of civilized. If you consider your response civil then please call me uncivil. To me, civilized means the opposite of what you appear to state. You warn me that the Ahmadi viewpoint is a minority one, after I was warned that my viewpoint was a minority one, and then directed me to the more dominant majority Sunni and Shia viewpoints. Islam is simply not defined or authored by the majority. It is not submission to the Sunni and it is not submission to the Shia. It is submission to Allah (swt). When Muhammud (pbuh) or Jesus (pbuh) or any other prophet came to this planet, were they the minority or the majority? I will follow a definition of civilized that would not censor Muhammud (pbuh) or Jesus (pbuh) for being the minority viewpoint among people.

    I welcome any viewpoint here with quotes from the Qur'an. Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi... there was a famous person in the last century who was a strong advocate of censorship, who claimed to be a Christian restoring Christian values, and he was responsible in part for many many millions of deaths.

     

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