The proplem with God (Hell and free will)

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Azure24, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking to myself, if god loves everyone and knows everything and is all powerful. Why then if God knows the future, will he create a sould knowing it would go to Hell? Why does hell exist if we do certain bad things in our lives (which most peoples lives is up to 80 approximately years) then why should someone suffer for enternity? Is that fair? If God is all powerful one does he not destroy evil? Is there a reason? Do Islam/christians/jews really belive that if someone is not a follower of their religion they would go to hell? Is that fair? If someone is bought up around people who aren't religious and does not interact with people who are religious will he go to hell? What about people who die before they are born? I am religious but sometimes i have my doubt?:confused:
     
  2. Karimarie

    Karimarie Live without fear

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    Well, if there's no free will, then there can't be a good reason. But if we do have free will then God cannot see the future as the future hasn't been decided yet.

    I don't know about Islam, but Christianity teaches that unless one accepts Jesus as his or her personal saviour, he or she is going to hell. Some liberal Christians have rejected this concept though on the basis that suggesting that one has to be a Christian to obtain the afterlife is nonsense. Catholics maintain that one goes to limbo if he or she is not baptised.

    While some Jews believe in the existence of a hell, Judaism itself doesn't claim that there is or isn't one. Like most other aspects of theology, Judaism doesn't give much of an answer on the afterlife (this is both a strength and a weakness for the religion). With regards to being a Jew, the idea in Judaism is that one has to follow the Noachide laws (if a Gentile) or the commandments (if a Jew) to obtain the afterlife. From the Jewish perspective, being a Jew is actually worse than being a Gentile in the perspective of obtaining the afterlife because there's so many more rules to follow. (This is one of the several reasons that conversion to Judaism has traditionally been discouraged--It's not in the proselyte's best interest!)

    Absolutely not. There are good and evil people of every faith and creed.
     
  3. aburaees

    aburaees Well-Known Member

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    You know some Christians don't believe that Hell is a place were a person gets tortured or tormented, but they rather believe that Hell is "the grave". A place where you just stay dead, and experience nothing, as if you had never existed.
    With this belief, it's not very difficult to reconcile it with free will. Why does God make creatures knowing that they will die? So that they can LIVE (at least once anyway).

    .
     
  4. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    Have you heard of 'the inconsistent triad' For example:
    1. If God exists, then there would be no evil in the world.
    2. There is evil in the world.
    3. Therefore, God does not exist.
    This argument is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent). In this case, P is "God exists" and Q is "there is no evil in the world". Other logical forms of arguments articulating the problem follow.
    Logical problem of evil
    1. God exists (premise)
    2. God is omnipotent (premise)
    3. God is benevolent (premise)
    4. Benevolent beings are opposed to all evil. (premise)
    5. Benevolent beings will act immediately with no delay. (premise)
    6. God is opposed to all evil. (conclusion from 3 and 4)
    7. God can eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 2)
      1. Whatever end result of suffering, God can bring about by ways which do not include suffering. (conclusion from 2)
      2. God has no reason not to eliminate evil (conclusion from 7.1)
      3. God has no reason not to act immediately (Conclusion from 5)
    8. God will eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 6, 7 ,7.2 and 7.3)
    9. Evil exists, has existed, and probably will always exist. (premise)
    10. Items 8 and 9 are contradictory; therefore, one or more of the premises is false: either God does not exist, or he is not both omnipotent and benevolent or there is a reason why He does not act immediately.
    Evidential problem of evil
    1. Gratuitous evils exist.
    2. Gratuitous evils are incompatible with the existence of a god (omnipotent, omniscient, all-good).
    3. Therefore, no god exists.
    Argument from evil natural laws
    1. A god is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent.
    2. If a god exists, then there exist no instances of an ultimately evil natural law.
    3. The laws of predation are ultimately evil.
    4. There are instances of the laws of predation.
    5. Therefore, no god exists.
    Moral argument from evil
    1. The most rational theists know (i.e., have a justified, true belief) that God exists.
    2. If a god exists, then there is objective justification for every actual instance of evil (even if no-one intervenes to prevent that evil).
      1. For any possible world W, if a god exists in W, then every instance of evil in W is objectively justified.
      2. If a god exists, then there is an objective justification for every actual instance of evil, (including those evils where there is a witness).
    3. Some members of the class of most rational theists (as defined above) are theists who know (2).
    4. Some of the most rational theists (namely, those who know 2) know that there is objective justification for any actual instance of evil, justification that will occur even if no onlooker intervenes to stop or prevent that evil.
    5. If human person P knows that there is objective justification for evil E, and that this justification will occur even if P does not intervene to stop or prevent E, then P is morally justified in allowing E to occur.
    6. Some of the most rational theists (namely, those who know 2) are morally justified in allowing any actual evil to occur. (from 4 and 5)
    7. If the most rational theists know that a god exists, then some of those theists (namely, those who know 2) are morally justified in allowing any evil to occur. (from 1 to 6)
    8. Even the most rational theists (including those who know 2) are not morally justified in allowing just any evil to occur.
    9. Even the most rational theists do not know that a god exists. (from 7 and 8)
    10. If the most rational theists do not know that a god exists, then no theist knows that a god exists.
    11. No theist knows that a god exists. (from 9 and 10)
    12. For any given theist, that theist's belief that a god exists is either false or unjustified.
    13. If a god exists, then some theists are justified in believing that a god exists.
    14. If a god exists, then no theist has a false belief that a god exists.
    15. If a god exists, then some theists know (i.e., have a justified, true belief) that God exists. (from 13 and 14)
    16. It is not the case that some theists know (i.e., have a justified and true belief) that a god exists. (from 12)
    17. No god exists. (from 15 and 16)
    Inductive argument from evil
    1. All evil in the kinds of created entities are the result of the fallibility of one or more of its creators. (Premise)
    2. The universe is a created entity. (Premise)
    3. The universe contains evil. (Premise)
    4. Evil is the result of the actions of a fallible creator(s) or is not the result of any creator(s). (From 1, 2 and 3 by predictive inference)
    5. If god created the universe, then he is fallible. (From 4)
    6. Therefore, god did not create the universe, is imperfect, or does not exist. (From 5)
    Argument from the biological role of pain and pleasure
    1. Consider the following observations:
      • Moral agents experiencing pain or pleasure we know to be biologically useful.
      • Sentient beings that are not moral agents experiencing pain or pleasure that we know to be biologically useful.
      • Sentient beings experiencing pain or pleasure that we do not know to be biologically useful.
    2. The observations in 1 are more probably the result of natural law than a god.
    3. Therefore, probably no god exists.
     
  5. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    You could say in hell the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill (for example). Humans can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet Hell is an infinite punishment, and common sense seems to suggest that few (if any) people deserve such punishment.
    The choices a person can make are determined by one's inherent nature. If someone were naturally good, he would still have some degree of free choice. Many people who have enjoyed this partial free will have lived their lives without causing suffering or other evil. Why wouldn't God make everyone predisposed to being good? Why would he make some who are predispoded to performing evil acts?
    The other side of this argument is that there "are no" naturally good people. All people are capable of both good and evil acts. An individual does either good or evil acts, depending not only on their inherent nature, but also upbringing, experiences, morals, choices, circumstances, society, and many other factors. The same group of people might be good or evil depending on the society they live in....But it still makes no sense!
     
  6. Karimarie

    Karimarie Live without fear

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    The question is not whether one is inherently good or evil (as the suggestion that one could be such is nonsense) but rather if one is responsible for his or her actions. The answer I give is yes. We do have free will and we are responsible for what we do and how we conduct ourselves.
     
  7. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Could it be possible that the notion of hell, as portrayed in Christianity, and likewise in the New Testament, has been wrongly depicted?

    Is "hell" or "Sheol" necessarily a place of punishment? What if Heaven or Paradise is simply a place offered to people who have screwed up, stuffed up, wasted their own lives and want a chance to start afresh?

    In other words, could it be a place for thieves, burglars, drug addicts, murderers, adulterers, sex addicts and other "worthless" people who are offered a second chance in life? Or perhaps you come from higher ranks in the social structure. You're an ambitious and greedy business-man, banker, scientist or engineer with grandiose ideas to be someone great and who's made a few bad choices, had a broken up marriage but now want to start anew. Could it be an offer to people from all walks of life, that if you've screwed up, lived badly, been arrogant and headstrong, that maybe you can start again but with God in your life?

    Is the heaven/hell concept really concerned with punishment or is it really just a generous offer from God that if you squandered this life you're living now you get another chance to live it out? I'm not saying a serial killer or serial rapist who will never stop killing or raping will necessarily be granted this offer by God, but the one who's committed to mending his ways and straightening himself up.

    This is probably what statement "whoever believes in him (Jesus) will have eternal life" really means. Perhaps heaven is a place for those who give their hearts to God, that hell is not really a place of punishment, but as Aburaees says, it's just "the grave." In other words, it's got nothing to do with whether you've been a hero or pain in the bum but whether you love God. Good people don't need be forgiven for having done nothing wrong and quite obviously have no problem being accepted by God. It's more of a question of whether or not you want to live forever. If you don't want to live forever, fine, God won't put you through the pain of a long life.

    So . . . perhaps it's not the "fire and brimstone" hell often depicted.

    After all, if God created us for a purpose, then this life is where we experiment with what we want. It's like marriage and dating. This is the pre-marriage, dating life where we're exploring and experimenting with luxury, wealth, religion, etc. We can choose either to belong to God (be married with Him in heaven), or to belong to ourselves (be single and left behind in Sheol). Moreover, God isn't an off-the-supermarket-shelf luxury item I guess. He created us for His own pleasure, not for our pleasure.

    I guess there are two schools of thought here. There are those (1) who believe God rejects no one (all paths lead to God). Nobody loses their place in the afterlife and nobody deserves to lose it. Then there are those (2) who believe in a personal God who accepts those who love Him.

    Group (1) believes that this life is just an experimental and exploratory life that is just part of a learning process. Very soon we will meet God; He will reveal himself. Group (2) believes that this life is experimental and exploratory but for the purpose of making up our mind on our present and future relationship with God. God didn't put us here just to experiment. He put us here to make a choice.

    People generally belong to one of these two groups.
     
  8. AletheiaRivers

    AletheiaRivers Well-Known Member

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    The following is offered for your interpretive pleasure ... ;) Because of similar discussions I've come across in the past, I looked up every word (I think) translated as hell in the NT and then looked up the original word. I saved what I found for future reference. Hopefully this is not too long.

    2Pe 2:4 - For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

    Ac 2:24
    - But God raised him up, having freed him from death, because it was impossible for him to be held in its power.

    Ac 2:27
    - For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let thy Holy One see corruption.

    Ac 2:31
    - he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

    Jas 3:6
    - And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna.

    Lu 10:15
    - And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.

    Lu 12:5
    - But I will warn you whom you shall fear. Fear him, who after he has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

    Lu 16:22
    - The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. (The verse does not add “in hell.”)

    Lu 16:23
    - and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.

    Mr 9:43
    - If your hand should cause you to sin, cut it off: it would be better for you to enter into Life maimed, than remain in possession of both your hands and go away into Gehenna, into the fire which cannot be put out.

    Mr 9:45
    - Or if your foot should cause you to sin, cut it off: it would be better for you to enter into Life crippled, than remain in possession of both your feet and be thrown into Gehenna.

    Mr 9:47
    - Or if your eye should cause you to sin, tear it out. It would be better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God half-blind than remain in possession of two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna,

    Mt 10:28
    - Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

    Mt 11:23
    - And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

    Mt 16:18
    - And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

    Mt 18:9
    - If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire.

    Mt 23:15
    - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehenna as yourselves.

    Mt 23:33
    - You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?

    Mt 5:22
    - But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

    Mt 5:29
    - If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and cast it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.

    Mt 5:30
    - If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not your whole body be cast into Gehenna.

    Re 1:18
    - and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

    Re 19:20
    - And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

    Re 20:10
    - And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Re 20:13
    - And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

    Re 20:14
    - Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

    Re 20:15
    - and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Re 6:8
    - And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him; and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    "Do Islam/christians/jews really belive that if someone is not a follower of their religion they would go to hell?"

    Catholicism does not believe this. Others denominations do.

    "If someone is bought up around people who aren't religious and does not interact with people who are religious will he go to hell?"

    Again, for Catholics, not necessarily.

    "What about people who die before they are born?"

    They can have nothing to answer for.

    Thomas
     
  10. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Perhaps there is a chink in God's armor. Every soul born has the chance to go to heaven (potential). but since we are given free will, that sets up a whole different stage, concerning the future. If (as God declares) every human is unique, then that means every life has its own unique reality (universe)...yes?

    We choose which way we are going to go through life, but in the very act of choosing, we choose from an infinite number of choices. God, being outside our time and reality, sees every result from every choice we make. In short, He sees every possible choice we could make in life, hence knows every possible out come. But, because He gave us free will, we determine what that final outcome for our lives will be (yet He has already seen it). Does He know which one that will ultimately be? Yes, infinitum. Does He know which particular path we utimately take (as in focussed on one path), no, because He gave us free will. He sees all outcomes, but gave us freedom of choice pertaining to which outcome will become finalized.

    If you think about it, as we draw nearer to death, our choices become narrowed as well. It could be a long drawn out death, or a impending death, or an instantaneous one. For some, the choice was made long ago, for others...in a few short moments or in an instant. But as we go through actual death the choices are set, and there are no more. Hence our future is set. That becomes our reality for eternity.

    I think, we each are given time to reflect, prior to our death, and decide. Sometimes we take it to heart, and other times we dismiss it.

    I also think that there is a "time" between actual life and actual death when time stands still (why not? God can do what He wants with time), and we can choose.

    We are given the ultimate choice right up to the very end (crossing the boundry of life and death), in my opinion.

    Doesn't do well for "riches in heaven", but could get us through the gates...

    Of course this is "this Christian's" perspective...

    my thoughts

    v/r

    Q
     
  11. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    What made you think you are in heaven?

    What is evil? Who defined evil in your arguments?
    You? Then your arguments fall apart.
    God? Then your arguments are proven wrong.

    Argument from the biological role of pain and pleasure
    Who wrote the natural laws?
     
  12. cavalier

    cavalier Well-Known Member

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    I think someone needs to point out that not all Christians believe we have free will. They may not be represented on this site but they do exist in their thousands.
    For more a bit more information on why they believe in predestination, see the thread, Predestination vs. Free Will
     
  13. Light

    Light Well-Known Member

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    There is a serious discrepancy in the above assumptions...

    If God exists, then there would be no evil in the world.
    This statement seems acceptable by many as they believe God suppose to be a protector against evil. One thing they forget is who created everything in this universe, including good and evil? It is God. There are reason and purpose for all God's creation. None of us; you, me, everyone in this world including all the prophets have any knowledge of God's reason for his creations apart from those that HE has teaches via the revealation through his prophet.

    To assume that God don't exists because there is evil in this world seems to indicate that there is no life after death and that there won't be judgement to all our actions. Thus, there is no justice, ever.

    To assume that God only exists if the world is peaceful due to God intervention against evil is also flawed. If God always intervene evil in this world, then God have not been just. Muslims believe God to be the most Just. Thus, in this instance, what we see as injustice in this world is actually the contrary. Why? Because, there is life after death which is our final destination. In that life will we be judged on all our actions in this world without missing any bit. The bad will go to Hell and the good goes to Heaven.

    One other thing we need to know that God gives us free will to act in this world. And God knows our past, present and future. Some might ask how can this be if God gives us free will? This is very simple, God give us free will and we make choices in our life. At the same time, God knows well in advance what choice we will make. There is no contradiction about this. God don't leave us unguided, reflect in your own life and I am sure there are time that you start thinking about life and religion, even if you do believe in any. This are all the subtle message from God to bring us closer to HIM. It is only when we openly reject God's existence and HIS message that we will be punished in the afterlife. And this is only after we have receive the message of faith and yet we reject it.

    we need to understand that, something that we can't see, doesn't mean it didn't exist. Examples like air, gravity, our soul. These are things we can't see, yet we know it exist because of its effect. Thus, why is it so difficult for us to apply the same to God?
     
  14. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    i would say God does know us before the world was even made. however we choose what we do. those that he knows are good, he has called on them. they choose to do gods commands or desired to do his will. gods perfect ways are hidden and intertwined in the hearts and lives of those he knows, and that is how they are revealed.

    if you have a son or daugther and they love candy, and your family loves candy as well. then on halloween they knock and say trick or treat and the person opens the door and has candy in one hand, and an apple in the other. because you know your kids, you know without a doubt they will pick the candy. your child was not forced, or did not have a lack of free will, but because they are your children, you know them, you know they will pick the candy, and they do.
     
  15. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    lol, I'd take the apple...it tastes just as sweet, is good for me AND, I can eat the "wrapper", just like Willie Wonka's stuff...:D

    v/r

    Q
     
  16. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    Heres my opinion of God(though this maybe contradicting the bible a liitle):
    I personally think that in way he isn't completely a personal God. I think after creating the universe, God is probably in a state of meditation subconsciously in watch of the universe and because of the afterlife and God's superority over things i think there is very little that will attract Gods attention. I think that God is a little... emotionless and basically doesn't intervene with human affairs unless it is important. Also personally i think God is Omnibenevolent (all loving) but more in a strict way because i do think helping people too much makes them weaker like less self reliant in a way, for example i for one do not believe in 'divine intervention'. God does not save one and leave another to die, God's children are the mentally strong, ones that when they pray, they pray for other people not themselves (hence other people will pray for them and visa-versa). Since God is the maker of all things, God never feels threatened or takes action against wrongs that occur(unless it endangers all of mankind) since there is nothing he cannot handle. For example would you feel that bothered if you killed an insect, some would but you know what i mean (no disrespect to us humans though).:eek:
     
  17. cavalier

    cavalier Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'm curious as to why you believe this about God.
    I could be wrong, my apologies if I am, but this just seems to be you making God in the image of what you want things to be.
     
  18. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    Its not what i want its what i think (thats what i said right?), thats all. Truth is no one does, other than whats said in the bible right?
    What do you thibk does God interfere with human affairs? I see life as a test, resulting with either a past or fail. Why does God need to help us physically? Evils occur yet nothing happens, some decent people suffer while some less considerate experience the other. There are so many questions (yes the Bible has some) but there are many others and few answers so i come up with my own.
     
  19. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    When I was learning of Christianity before I renounced it... Anyway that's a story for some other time... I learnt that god, didn't create hell, Hell is dogmatic and an idea made by man not by god.. In the bible there is no talk of Hell there is however talk of hades and sheoul which is a "common grave" where all dead go. Then upon judgement day they are raised back out from the memory of god and obviously judged.. Good boys and girls go to live on earth... yay. and the bad boys and girls are simple destroyed.... lol. The bible and jesus used "Gehenna" as their example.. This was a dumping ground outside jeursalem.. and simply what you put in, ain't coming back it is destroyed by the fires. So "worthless" things in to "gehenna" and thats it lights out you're laid to rest you ain't coming back... and good boys and girls paradise eternal.

    --edit--

    One thing.... Oh lovley the almighty god gives us freedom we have free will, that is really great I am going to spend my time doing some really cool things. Time for some entertainment!! Alright...

    god: "Nah, wait... you have to do everything I say and live by my rules and worship me non freakin stop.."

    Oh so the free will was a real worthwhile thing... Good thinking.

    It's like I make an awesome "thing" and it's meant to sit on my fireplace.. but I purposly made it wonky so it keeps freaking falling off... and never sits on the fireplace for more than a blink of an eye. Any one see where the logic is?!
     
  20. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Wow... No christian response?
     

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