The Mystery of Alexander The Great

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Admiral_HangTuah, Aug 4, 2006.

  1. Admiral_HangTuah

    Admiral_HangTuah Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    To Whom It May Concern:-

    Dear Readers,

    I love reading history books since I left high-school in 1994 though quite inactive back then, but the inquisitiveness has pushed me forward to read a lot more books about great leaders, including "Alexander The Great". I told my friends that, before you watch any movie based on history, please do some research on that movie so that you won't be misled by the propaganda strategized directly or indirectly to deceit, or to challenge the Islamic Historical Facts and Data.

    People of The Book, in the bible refers Alexander as "The Lord With The Horns". In the Christian legend concerning Alexander, many scholars find that Alexander said in one of his prayers, "O God... Thou hast made me horns upon my heads", and the translator adds in a footnote that in Ethiopic version of the same legend concerning Alexander, "Alexander is always referred to as The Two Horned." So, this has proven that, the People Of The Book did not invent the title of "The Two Horned" even before the revelation of Islam, the Religion of Truth and Peace.

    So, the question is why when we watch the movie (Alexander, Collin Farrel & Angelina Jolie), it potrey this great military strategist was a gay, alcoholic and pagan? The classical Muslim scholars and many Malay traditional muslim scholars believe that "Zul-Qarnain" found in the Koran refers to Alexander The Great. "Zul-Qarnain" in Arabic means, "the one who possess two horns". If Alexander is mentioned in the Koran, definitely he was a muslim or a true believer in Allah s.w.t. though not so many people during his time believe the same God. And, if he was a muslim, definitely he was not a gay, was not an alcoholic and was not a pagan.

    Then, many modern Muslim scholars started to doubt the conclusion of research on Zul-Qarnain made by classical Muslim scholars since the Ottoman Empire time. Even some of them believe that Saladin or Persian King, Darius The Great II was the real Zul-Qarnain. But, Saladin was never referred to as "The Lord With The Horns" by the People of The Book (Christians), and Darius The Great II was never be able to conquer the western part of this world as mentioned in the Koran.

    To clear the above doubt, let us first check the translation of our Holy Koran. In the Koran, (18:83) we read: "They will ask thee of Zul-Qarnain. Say: I shall recite unto you a rememberance of him."

    The first important question; who did ask Prophet Mohammad s.a.w. a question about Zul-Qarnain? Ibn Kathir informs us that the unbelievers of Mecca sent to the People of the Book asking them what questions they could pose to Prophet Mohammad s.a.w in order that they might test him. The People of The Book said: "Ask him about Zul-Qarnain, some youth whom he did not know what they did, and the Spirit".

    Before I make the conclusion, I want to make it clear that Alexander The Great is "Zul-Qarnain" mentioned in the Holy Koran (from Ayaat 83, Sura 'The Cave").

    Lets learn from this scenario:

    The People of The Book and the unbelievers from Mecca, before they did ask the question to Prophet Muhammad, they were hoping to receive misleading (wrong) answers from the Holy Prophet, so that they can prove that Muhammad is false Prophet.

    But, because Islam is a true religion, Prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h. was able to give the precise answers with the exact story of Alexander (from People of The Book's version), and even corrected it by:

    "Until when he (Zul-Qarnain) reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people; We said: "O Zul-Qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness" (18:86).

    "He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall be back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before)" (18:87).

    "But whoever believes, and works righteousness, -he shall have a goodly reward, and easy will be his task as we order it by our command" (18:88).

    I think you are smart enough to understand what the Ayaat of 86, 87 and 88 means in the Holy Koran.

    With this, the "unbelievers" then returned to their home countries, and informed all the Kings of The People of the Book - all over Mighty Roman Empire. Slowly, they plotted a conspiracy to change the actual historical manuscripts and the related events in their Holy Books, in order to prove that Islam is a false religion. Nauzu billahi min zaalik.

    Debate:

    Please remember that the People of the Book used title "The Lord With The Horns" first in the question they gave the Meccans to test Prophet Mohammad s.a.w. That proves that this title is pre-Quranic. And the only source for the title "Zul-Qarnain" is found in the legends about Alexander The Great. It is true that others were described as animals with two horns, but not a human with two horns and then only in a vision as symbol of their power, not as reality and history as in the case of Alexander The Great. No one else in history was called Zul-Qarnain except Alexander The Great. Not only was the name Zul-Qarnain only applied to Alexander The Great but the description of the Koran fits the legends about him too.

    "Then followed he (another) way," (18:92).

    "Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word" (18:93).

    "They said: 'O Zul-Qarnain! The Gog and Magog (people) do great mischief on earth: shall we then render tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them?" (18:94).

    "He said: '(The Power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): Help me therefore with strength (and labour): I will erect a strong barrier between you and them:" (18:95).

    "'Bring me blocks of iron'. At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain-sides, he said: 'Blow (with your bellows)'. Then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said:'Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead'" (18:96).

    "Thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it" (18:97).

    "He said: 'This is a mercy from my Lord: but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true" (18:98).

    If you watched the movie, you will remember that.... one scene which shows Alexander travelled South West of Persia and walked through, over mountains with his army followed behind. The narrator said: "Until now, our great King Alexander's decision to travel between those mountains is still remain as a mystery."

    The conclusion is simple. Alexander The Great is Zul-Qarnain, mentioned in the Holy Koran, and he was a great leader, a genius of military strategist who conquered the world, with Prophet Khidhir a.s. as his commander, and he was a muslim.

    In modern day, the truth sometimes is seen as the false information, but the false information is told to be the real truth by some people who has their own agenda. Beware! We have to learn and read more, do more research, not only from the internet, books, satellite TV and holy books, but we have to see the world with our own wary eyes. The mystery is there, and don't let the people who has the agenda find it, let it be the muslim who discover it, and keep it as the best source to promote the truth, inshaAllah (God Willing).

    May Allah s.w.t. bless me and lead me to a better understanding of Islam and its history from Adam to Mohammad s.a.w.

    Regards.
     
  2. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    4
    because he *was*! i don't know about alcoholic, but he certainly liked a drink and was no monotheist, nor was he especially interested in women except for dynastic purposes. really, if you want historical information, read historians. i am not saying that movies are a good source of this, because they aren't, but there are plenty of good biographies of alexander. read some of them. i suggest you start with paul cartledge's "alexander the great", which is superb. alexander is a popular and well-studied figure and very little of what was portrayed in the film goes against the historical evidence - certainly the drunkenness and sexual identity stuff. seriously, mate - just because you think you have identified an interpretation, that doesn't mean the history is wrong. in any case, you may be being misled by multiple meanings of the arabic root Q-R-N, which, if it is anything like the hebrew cognate, means not only "horn", but also "ray". moses (or musa, if you prefer) is also described as having "QeReNIM", so the israelites could not look at him after he came down from mt sinai, because "the skin of his face shone" - look here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_(Michelangelo)

    perhaps you are making the same mistake?

    either that, or the sense of "horn" in these languages has also a sexual connotation (which i believe is the case) - in which case, if alexander is this "two-horns" bloke, you can draw the obvious conclusion!

    was-salaam

    bananabrain
     
  3. Admiral_HangTuah

    Admiral_HangTuah Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Banana,

    Thank you for pointing it out. Now you have given me another source of research. I find it interesting to know that the Jews also refer or call Moses by the name of "Qarenim" = "Ray".

    However, we cannot deny the fact that "Qarn-nain" in arabic means "The one who poses Two Horns" or "Two-Horns". Qarn-nain and "Qarenim" sounds similar, but doesn't mean that the meaning is same. Well, let me think again... hmm, not logic at all. Still Zul-Qarnain is very close to Alexander The King of Macedonia III.

    Thats why this topic is called as Mystery of Alexander, as it is still remain as mystery. The statue, the picture and everything that we see now as evidence of historical facts are actually written / built and painted long after the events itself. Meaning, its just the interpertation of historians who believed what they think logic and right (for them).

    Even if you say that he was no monotheist, well perhaps the only evidence that he was not is when the historians found the Marble Inscryption on 330 B.C. told that Alexander dedicated the temple to Athena Polias. However, if you see the diagram below, you will see that the temple or the event happened long before he conquered the east. It doesn't really meant that he was the one who wanted to dedicate the temple, maybe, based on another logical imagination, that he might had just let it be that way as that was the culture and wanted to boost the spirit of his army. He was not a prophet, and no need for him to Preach and make sure all of his people or follower to understand his beliefs.

    If the temple has been dedicated long before he conquered the east, means that he might have changed or seen the light after that. Who knows? Only God knows. I just want to see from different angle, and see that interesting to do more research. I'm not a historian, so if anybody who are good in this topic, please do help.

    *In Koran, Moses a.s. is called as "Musa" as prophet (and) he couldn't be called as other names unless if Muhammad p.b.u.h. let us about it.

    Well, lets be open and discuss about this. Is there any possiblity that people could change the facts by painting, writing and build monuments? I think it is.... a high possiblity that people before us had changed the facts.

    Regards. ;-)
     
  4. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    4
    except that if you know something about semitic languages, they have three-letter roots. in this case, Qof-Resh-Nun in hebrew and the arabic equivalent, Qaf-Reh-Noon. the meaning needn't necessarily be exactly the same, but in almost all cases, a case can be made.

    indeed, but some are more ancient than others. alexander had his own biographer, poets, sculptors and portrait painters many of which are more or less contemporary. a figure as famous as this in his own life-time got plenty of "press" and his relationship with hephaestion and others is really well-documented. as for your "two-horns" theory, it's interesting, but there's less evidence for that than there is for alcohol, bisexuality and paganism.

    of course, but once you start down that route, the "facts" in any case become subject to the test of evidence - and the same could be said for your theory or indeed any theory, including the religious beliefs we both hold. you can't say that the facts are wrong about alexander unless you are prepared to concede that the facts could be wrong about even, say, muhammad. and i suspect you would not be prepared to concede that and fair enough. selectivity is a double-edged sword.

    erm... in our tradition, we call moses what we call him, moshe rabbeinu, moses our teacher. what muhammad has to say about it is not really that relevant to us.

    was-salaam

    bananabrain
     
  5. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,532
    Likes Received:
    10
    Well, firstly, I've yet to meet anyone who enjoyed Alexander by Oliver Stone. :)

    As for Alexander's supposed failings - come on, the Macedons were a hard-drinking bunch to put it mildly, and in Ancient Greece male-male relationships for pleasure were integral even to the education system. And if anyone is going to redefine the Ancient Greek pantheon as some kind of Monotheist institution then I'd have to ask their sources. :)

    I've heard Alexander referenced in the Quran as Iskander, and the two-horns I thought may apply to decoration on his helmet - not necessarily outward horns, as much as engraving work. This latter is specualtion on my part. :)

    But the rest - history has already documented it, so therefore applying a more "modern" approach of morality to historical figures living an entirely different cultural environment - and finding they don't mix well - is hardly a surprise. :)
     
  6. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    4
    *i* liked it. well, i liked the "director's cut". i didn't see the "theatrical version". i just don't think it's necessarily history. and, yes, it was a bit self-indulgent, but i like that sort of thing. the only things i really didn't like were colin farrell's hair dye or wig or whateveritwas and angelina jolie's rubbish accent, whateverthatwassupposedtobe.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  7. Amica

    Amica Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Messages:
    649
    Likes Received:
    9
    Sallam/Peace.

    I think we should give it a rest of trying to identify Alexander with Zul Qarnain. Why? Simply because Alexander was really a pagan. He believed himself to be a 'son of a god' (Zeus), had homosexual tendencies, etc. Monotheistic, Only True God (Allah) would not call a pagan a believer in Him and would certainly not call a person just if he/she claims divinity when they are only human/mortal.

    According to the Holy Qur'an, Zul Qarnain was a just king and a believer in One God.
     
  8. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,749
    Likes Received:
    4
    nice to have you back, amica. how are things in bosnia? i hope to be there with my band one of these days. apparently they'd just love us in sarajevo - a lot of the stuff we play is bosnian, too!

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  9. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2003
    Messages:
    3,697
    Likes Received:
    164
    I read a pretty convincing argument that Cyrus was the "Dhul-Qarnain" by Abdul Mannan Omar in his Dictionary of Holy Qur'an...as he feels the term "Dhul-Qarnain can refer to Master of Two States, Persia and Media which were combined under him.. It seems to me that the area described could fit the area of Cyrus conquests.

    Alexander representing Hellenistic (Greek) culture would seem to me to be more of antagonistic element compared with Cyrus who was considered annointed in the Bible as in Ezra 1:1,2 and stirred by God.

    I kind of liked the movie actually and the earlier film with Richard Burton as Alexander as well...

    - Art
     
  10. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,532
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ok, I've finally met people who liked the film. :)
     
  11. Amica

    Amica Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2005
    Messages:
    649
    Likes Received:
    9
    Peace Bananabrian!

    I am actually a newly naturalized U.S. citizen, but in my heart still a Bosniack too!

    Bosnians (of all religions) are generally very welcoming people. Despite Serbs (Christian Orthodox) mostly believing themselves to be 'heavenly people,' they too can be nice to visitors.

    If you go to Bosnia, visit Sarajevo, the capital. We call it 'little Jerusalem' because the three great Abrahamic Faiths meet there. It seems that in that little european country, Jews and Muslims have managed never to fight each other. During the recent Balkan war of 1990s they stood shoulder to shoulder for their homeland.

    Mir/Salaam/Shalom
     
  12. Admiral_HangTuah

    Admiral_HangTuah Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear All,I do not want to continue the discussion as it is very difficult for me to explain it in very short time. I'm very busy with my job, and usually go back late (international business is difficult as well, need to communicate with United States counterpart at night until 2-3 am, sleep 1-2 hours, and pray and after that go to work again to communicate and do business with the Japanese....)Well, Malaysia is the 17th top world trading nation, and thats why.... ppl are crazy here working 24 hours 8 days a week....Welcome to Malaysia, 2007 is when we celebrate 50th Independence from British.... and you can see how well the Islamic Country govern its own country without anybody's help.Regards.
     
  13. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    3
    Admiral:

    I was interested in your conversation with BB about the two "QRN...rays" emanating from the head of Moses and others who have come into intimate contact with the divine. You might be interested to know that this really dates back to about the second and third millenium bce in ancient Sumer
    (later Babylon, now Iraq) where the high priests and royal rulers were said to have "horns of light" emanating from the sides of their heads after visiting the inner and most sacred precincts of their temples.

    flow....;)
     
  14. Admiral_HangTuah

    Admiral_HangTuah Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Flow,

    About the two horns, we cant get the specific answer as long as all of us keep protecting the own beliefs that the two horns are this and that. However, one thing for sure is that Alexander was somebody who is called as The King who poses the Two Horns. And, if you think with logic... answer me why most of these "heroic" persons on planet earth usually comes from chaotic moment, and go against the norms, and declare that whoever worship idols are stupid? Just watch Troy (a movie) for an example, and see how the Greece warrior.... Achilles?! go against the lovely priests and ask, why Apollo didnt help the Trojans?

    The answer is simple, ask yourself and see how history answered our dilemma and miserable questions....

    Step back, and you will forward much more stronger. Hold your position, and you wont see the real truth.

    Regards.
     
  15. redindica

    redindica Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your getting your Ancient Greek history from American movies?!?!?!?! :confused:

    Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:
     
  16. Alvis Rofhessa

    Alvis Rofhessa Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    When I was younger I got mixed up and could never be sure whether Dhul-Qarnain was 2 horns or 1 horn despite the plural -im/in ending, and to this day I still can't be sure if I did see it somewhere also alt as 1 horn or not.

    In GW Cox there is a Semitic god with almost same name (lost when my 15yrs notes destroyed in crisis 2yrs ago).
    Some say Nimrod wore the slain bull horns.
    The horns may represent West and East.
    Hislop mentions how horns, tusks and teeth are linked in myths.
    Horned serpent? Horned hand?
    Ray = Eye?

    In Daniel 8 there is the two horned Ram vs the one horned He-Goat (unicorn in Celt) which are conventionally supposed to be Iran (P & M) and Macedonia respectively. In Revelation 13:11 there is the 2 horned lamb-dragon (note lamb ~ ram, also goats and sheep closely linked in myth).

    So Dhul-Qarnain could be (a) proto-historical Nimrod/Dionysos, (b) historical Alexander/Iran, and/or (c) prophetic/future/end-times.

    I'd like to know more about what you said about Dhul-Qarnain assoc with El-Khadir....
     
  17. Admiral_HangTuah

    Admiral_HangTuah Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    i heard about zulqarnain assoc with prophet kheidir as well,, anybody who knows... please explain.

    regards
     
  18. Alvis Rofhessa

    Alvis Rofhessa Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reading your post a thought just occured, maybe they are indirectly connected thru there being gardens (of Eden) in west (El-Khadir) and/or in east (Alexander the Grt/Dhul-Qarnain)?
    My 1st thought was similar to Sheddad ben Ad and Luqman (or Hud?)
    Also I see Michael Jordan says Khadir revered by Alexander the Grt.
     
  19. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2003
    Messages:
    3,697
    Likes Received:
    164
    OK this is pretty bizarre and a little weird to me but just now while I was reesponding to Postmaster about Saint George and Khizr this note also appeared:

    "According to the commentator Husain, al-Khizr was a general in the army of Zul- Qarnain (Alexander the Great) while some legends maintain that he was Alexander's cook. Either way, the association of al-Khizr with Iskandar or Alexander the Great has persisted from pre-Islamic times and is amply testified over much of south, central, and western Asia. To this very day, encounters with al-Khidr by pious believers continue to occur, particularly at Khidr-gamam."

    Source:

    http://kataragama.org/islamic.htm

    That Khizr could be Alexander's cook...well that sounds to me like someone maybe have smoked some potent Ghanj...a pipe dream maybe...

    - Art
     
  20. inhumility

    inhumility Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    1
    Re: Who is Zul-Qarnain?

    I would submit humbly that the account of Zul-Qarnain, a title, not a proper name does not match with Alexander of Macedonia, though he was a great conqueror. The medieval Islamic scholars were hardly research minded, they only copied what others had written and believed that blindly.
    Mirza Mahmood Ahmad son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Masih & Mahdi a.s, had written a research article in his Tafseer-e-Kabir, an interpretation book of Quranic versed, quite a few pages in Urdu language, not yet translated in English.
    To sum up, the Arabic root q-r-n has also the meaning of a century i.e. span of hundred years; thereby Qurnain would mean a period span of two hundred years. This means:
    1. a great conqueror who had lived in two centuries hence called a conqueror of conspicuous two centuries
    2. he received quite a bit revelation from God as is mentioned in Quran very clearly
    3. he has a peculiar relation with the Jews, being their benefactor, releasing them from captivity of a cruel ruler and freeing them from him
    4. he saved a people of his dynasty by erecting a wall of lead, steel, and concrete to protect them from invading warriors, as mentioned in Quran
    5. He had a large dynasty spread over some parts of Africa, Middle East, Persia Central Asia and parts of India might be some parts of Europe.
    All these signs fit on Cyrus the Great of Persia, whose account has also been mentioned in Bible.May be he was a prophet of God like David,a kind ruler as well.
    Since Quran is not a book of stories, its Characters though real, have been generalized and used as prophecy for future, this is a characteristic and style of Quran. In that sense it has been referred to and title of Zul-Qarnain bestowed on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in future, he lived in two centuries of most calendars in vogue in the world. Allah knows better
    This is off the cuff.
    If the members would be interested I would translate those pages from Urdu to English, may be that translation is not a standard translation, anyway the concept would be conveyed.
    Thanks
     

Share This Page