What Happened To Boldness?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by JustifiedByFaith, Aug 18, 2006.

  1. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Good to see you back! :)

    I think we are not quite on the same frequency here, and I'm not quite certain how to explain the two camps of thought, at this moment.

    Let's say, one person is a recovering alcoholic, and has been sober for years, and he sees someone else caught up in alcohol and rapdily heading for a very bad fall. One, his heart ( I think) would go out to the troubled individual. Two, I'd think that he would as a decent human being who's been there, point out that he understood because he has been there, and that there is a way out.

    There is your planted seed. Now, it is up to the one who is in trouble to decide if he is sick and tired of being sick and tired. A hand is held out to him, but he must take it on his own decision.

    What just happened? One identified with another, which establishes a commonality, and tends to cause one's guard to drop a little. There was no perception of judgement, but rather a kindredness. Next, the one points out that there is a way out, which sparks hope in the soul of desperation. Now, the time for patience is at hand. The desperate one may accept the way out, or may turn away from it, or may have to fall a bit more for awhile. None the less, the seed has still been planted.

    What didn't happen? There was no "preaching". There was no damnation. There was no judgement on the person as a person.

    I believe that we must meet people on an even playing field. We must make certain that we raise the other to our level, as equals and worthy. We must offer some of our self to show that we too have walked (or are still walking) a similar path. All this must take place before we can even begin to present a way out.

    Finally, we must be the right person to do the job at hand. That is where we the well intentioned tend to screw things up. We can't always be the one, nor should we think such, that wins a soul.

    Bringing people the Good News is like a football game. Everyone on the team is important to that endeavor, that common goal, but not everyone has the same job in the achieving of that goal. Christ is the Coach, and in order for the team to be successful, the individual players must take their instructions and positions proper, as designated by the Coach. The Coach gives the play, and the players must act according to the strategy of the play, or there will be no touchdown, and the opponent team may win.

    The reason I bring this up, is because You pointed out something that I'm not designed to do, namely go out arbitrarily to strangers and talk about God. Not everyone is designed to do that. Nor is everyone designed to hold the attention of many at one time, while expressing the Good News. Some of us work best, one on one, or with small groups.

    On the otherhand, I have no problems witnessing for God once it comes into the conversation, or once the conversation is primed for bringing God up. And like you pointed out, the timing is God's, and He will let us know the right moment to bring Him into the conversation.

    Does that make sense?

    v/r

    Q
     
  2. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    Greetings jiii.

    Your observations are welcome and I for one would be pleased to respond from a Christian standpoint.

    First off We are ALL sinners.. our good works are as filthy rags. We are only trying to live righteously and morally with the help of the Spirit. We cannot convict anyone of their sins, friend. Only God can do that.. All we can do is ask God to convict us of our own.

    I dont know who you mean "Christian" there are many that claim to be Christian but Jesus said the path is narrow and not all who claim to know HIM will He know.

    Zeal is a broad term... I believe that Im on "fire" for Christ... that I long to serve Him and serve my fellow brethren and I always pray that unbelievers will learn His truth.. Its not anything I can teach.. only God can convict someone of the truth.. so no Im not going to beat you about the head with my bible... I would tell you straight up that Jesus came to this earth as a man and died for you then resurrected and will return again someday in which all that breathes will bow down before Him and declare Him Lord.

    This comment on people leaving churches.. oh yes they are leaving apostate dead or lukewarm churches.. because the Spirit of God is not there. Most are finding churches like mine that are growing in numbers each service.

    My observance is that in todays society there are too many ppl that are looking for feel good churches.. or fast food churces... Just read the menu and order the religion just the way you like it. Sorry my church is bible based and on fire or "zealous" for Christ. We take the bible literally because God is not a liar and doesnt patsy around His truth.. He tells it like it is and for the past 6,000 years its held true. Its full of promises that He keeps and I want people to know that the world is not the end all be all of it all. So if I offend people... then ok.. Im sorry but like Jesus said:

    (Bits and pieces of Matthew 10:16-42)

    "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.

    Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

    But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

    "Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.

    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

    "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

    "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

    He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

    my 2c
     
  3. kenod

    kenod "to live is Christ"

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    For most of us, the ones we will witness to are family, friends, neighbours, and work colleagues. All of these know us pretty well ... so if we talk the talk, we'd better walk the walk.

    While it is true that most people in Western countries have heard about Jesus Christ, I find that most do not know that we can have a personal relationship with God that transcends going to church.

    My wife was speaking to a member of our family recently who was having great problems. My wife said: "Well, you know what my answer is" (meaning trusting in Jesus Christ). The family member replied: "I've tried going to church".
     
  4. Dor

    Dor Bible Thumper

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    Oh my, remember how church used to be a job.
    So much better when you actually have Christ I actually spend 5 to 6 days a week looking forward to waking up Sunday morning now. Of course having an amazing preacher that teaches the bible helps just slightly too.
     
  5. kenod

    kenod "to live is Christ"

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    That's the way we should all feel. I'm certainly not against going to church, but when it is a ritual rather than a personal faith experience, I think it needs to be challenged. Glad to hear you have an anointed preacher.
     
  6. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    Good to see you back! :)

    Thanks Q Im glad to be back :D

    I think we are not quite on the same frequency here, and I'm not quite certain how to explain the two camps of thought, at this moment.

    I think I actually understand what you're saying you are taking the passive approach and Im just flat out being aggressive? :)

    Let's say, one person is a recovering alcoholic, and has been sober for years, and he sees someone else caught up in alcohol and rapdily heading for a very bad fall. One, his heart ( I think) would go out to the troubled individual. Two, I'd think that he would as a decent human being who's been there, point out that he understood because he has been there, and that there is a way out.

    We agree on this... but maybe the difference is I would tell Him the way out?

    There is your planted seed. Now, it is up to the one who is in trouble to decide if he is sick and tired of being sick and tired. A hand is held out to him, but he must take it on his own decision.

    Well thats where God comes in.. Its actually Gods decision to convict someone.

    What just happened? One identified with another, which establishes a commonality, and tends to cause one's guard to drop a little. There was no perception of judgement, but rather a kindredness. Next, the one points out that there is a way out, which sparks hope in the soul of desperation. Now, the time for patience is at hand. The desperate one may accept the way out, or may turn away from it, or may have to fall a bit more for awhile. None the less, the seed has still been planted.

    I know wonderful gentle people of faith and they dont have an ounce of judgement.. perceived or not. There is no judgement.. And its interesting to me that Jesus's and His disciples method of preaching the gospel has the perception of judgement in your words. Thier method also had the feeling of kindredness.. look at Jesus and what he suffered.. Look at Paul and the sins he committed and yet found redemption.. and Peter.. how many of us are bumbling along like Peter.. lol

    I believe this is why we have trials and backslide.. so we can relate to people and better minister to them and sow the seeds.

    What didn't happen? There was no "preaching". There was no damnation. There was no judgement on the person as a person.

    Again.. I feel you have a jaded opinion of the word Preacher.. like its a curse word. Jesus was a preacher and If Im ever such I find myself in wonderful company :)


    I believe that we must meet people on an even playing field. We must make certain that we raise the other to our level, as equals and worthy. We must offer some of our self to show that we too have walked (or are still walking) a similar path. All this must take place before we can even begin to present a way out.

    See we differ in this also.. I would not put myself as an equal.. I would put myself as a servant.. with a servants heart..

    Finally, we must be the right person to do the job at hand. That is where we the well intentioned tend to screw things up. We can't always be the one, nor should we think such, that wins a soul.

    Peter comes to mind again.. He screwed up alot.. But God ways are higher than our ways and God ALWAYS makes good things come from that which seem bad or screwed up.

    Bringing people the Good News is like a football game. Everyone on the team is important to that endeavor, that common goal, but not everyone has the same job in the achieving of that goal. Christ is the Coach, and in order for the team to be successful, the individual players must take their instructions and positions proper, as designated by the Coach. The Coach gives the play, and the players must act according to the strategy of the play, or there will be no touchdown, and the opponent team may win.

    I just posted Matthew chapter 10 there are others that I can post but you know them im sure... those are the instructions I take.. I go where God leads me.. In laying my life down I gave Him everything.. my very life.. my very choices are made by Him. His words come from my mouth. Every step I take is in his footprints because thats how dedicated I am to Him. I pray before I share his Word.. I ask Him for the words to use.. I prayed before I posted on CR tonight because it was heavy on my heart after Dor told me.

    The reason I bring this up, is because You pointed out something that I'm not designed to do, namely go out arbitrarily to strangers and talk about God. Not everyone is designed to do that. Nor is everyone designed to hold the attention of many at one time, while expressing the Good News. Some of us work best, one on one, or with small groups.

    I wasnt saying that all should be as bold as I am.. I believe God gives out a measure of faith to each person... and a measure of boldness. But God can do anything with anyone and we should not limit God or put ourselves on the throne so I dont put those limits on myself. Ive seen too many miracles in my life to not believe all things are possible through Him.

    On the otherhand, I have no problems witnessing for God once it comes into the conversation, or once the conversation is primed for bringing God up. And like you pointed out, the timing is God's, and He will let us know the right moment to bring Him into the conversation.

    Amen *hugs*

    Does that make sense?
    Perfect :D
     
  7. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Jiii, we do believe we have the way, and we believe that ours is the best way. I personally will not apologize to anyone for that. The only way I can think to best describe it is, we have a "get out of jail free" card, and a "pass go and collect $200.00" card.

    When you say moral values of Christianity, do you mean a morally superior attitude, or the actual moral values that Christians live by? If it is the former, then yes I agree that can rub noses the wrong way, and is not what Christ teaches. If however it is that latter, then again, I make no apologize for trying to live a correct life, as I understand it due to my faith.

    As far a zealous preaching, that can be startling and irritating, which tells me the people weren't ready, or they weren't prepared by the one doing the "sharing". Or that the preacher was not the right one to do the talking.

    I'm not certain where your statistics came from concerning a relativistic America growing yearly, but if you are citing the ARMIS poll conducted in 1990, considering that there are 300,000,000 people in the US, I question the accuracy of a poll of only 50,000 people. However, I do have to agree with the analogy of the bounding Christian and the vegomatic salesman's "Wait! There's more!..." ;)

    The reality is people are more educated (though tend to be specialized), have to deal with a much faster pace, socially integrated, and they do not take things at face value. They analyse, expect a "catch, clause or legal tiny print", with just about everything, and are not exactly "jaded", but more like "Show me". Unfortunately Christianity can't really be taken for a "test drive", before buying. But it can build up a "reputation" for reliability and quality for the cost...however that is the job of the Christian, not the potential "customer". Less brazen isn't exactly the term I would use. More like it's back to school for an update in communication skills, folks, plus an interal inventory of self.

    Thanks for your thoughts. :)

    v/r

    Q
     
  8. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    "Church" isnt the answer I wonder how many ppl actually have that misconception... If I was your wife I would get my bible out and show the family member what Jesus actually said. Good luck and I will say a prayer for this family member of yours.
     
  9. kenod

    kenod "to live is Christ"

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    Thank you, prayers are always appreciated.
    Most likely, I would also get out my Bible, but my wife wouldn't ... she would simply share her testimony from her own experiences ... if the other person wanted to know more, she would then take her to another who could help. I guess that just demonstrates that we all witness in our own way, and have our own unique place in God's scheme of things.
     
  10. RubySera_Martin

    RubySera_Martin Well-Known Member

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    Very well stated, jiii. If, as you so adequately show, the Christian's bottom line is to "save souls" then they are defeating their own purpose with their evangelizing.

    I am so glad someone recognizes that Christians are not all that way.

    Ruby
     
  11. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Good point, Faithfulservant - it's a while since I've read it - thanks for the correction. :)
     
  12. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    I think what really takes courage, and is thus the challenge before us all, is to be able to stand and look at ourself in the mirror. Doesn't matter whether we're Christan or Buddhist, this is the opportunity we have - if we are brave, and ready. So being bold, means that we will not shy away, we will not retreat into the comfort of the familiar, or seek a convenient escape mechanism ... which is no doubt easier.

    We don't have to find a high mountain cave somewhere, or make a lengthy pilgrimage, to confront our true self ... or to find God. But we do need to accept ourself as we are, and to recognize that the journey still lies ahead. That's all we have to do. And it does take humility, it takes honesty, it takes boldness.

    A few moments' quiet meditation, can re-center us and return us to the ground of being. The Christian will perhaps call this `prayer,' or speaking with Christ. And the Buddhist will call it `meditation,' and developing Bodhichitta, or contemplating Buddha Nature.

    Isn't it interesting, that a Buddhist doesn't feel incomplete, if he seeks to practice loving-kindness, and show compassion for all creatures - for all people, regardless of faith or religious background? Isn't it amazing how very important to him is respect, and how the thought of converting, missionizing, or proselytizing is pretty much foreign to him? Isn't it neat, that he can be complete, and he can also help others to be more complete, to find Buddha Nature, to know Christ, or to find God, simply by practicing his own path?


    The only Christians I have ever known, were no different than these Buddhists. And they make no apologies about being Christan, for isn't that a bit like apologizing that we have five fingers on each hand? :confused: They practice their Christianity in such a way, that unless asked, you might never know that they are Christian. And yet, they can smile, and those who "have the Christ presence," are as aware as they need to be. And not a word need be spoken.
    "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." (Matthew 6:5-6)

    "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?" (Matthew 7:3-4)

    It's kind funny, sometimes I start my car, and every once in awhile, I must admit, I've forgotten it was already started - so I do it again! :eek: Yeah yeah, I know. I do it rarely, because I usually remember what an awful noise that is, and also because I'm just more attentive than that. Still, we all make mistakes. :p

    Now imagine what sense it would make for me to stop my car on the Interstate Highway (freeway, expressway), get out, and try and flag down the motorists going 70mph. When they screeched to a halt, I stick my head in, and I say, hey buddy, I wanna help you out, let me start your engine.

    Umm, why are all these people giving me the cold shoulder? Why the hate? Why the unkind words, and why is that man with the blue lights trying to take me away? :rolleyes:

    Ahhh, so the person over there on the shoulder with his hood up, and the white tshirt stuck in his window, you're saying that he does need some help??? That he does want for me to come help him try and start his car? And because he is specifically ASKING for it? Ohhh, I see.

    Then by all means, let me do something that 99% of the motorists on the highways today are afraid to do, let me be BOLD, and literally risk my life and limb - by stopping to help. ;) :) The Good Samaritan ... these are what we need more of.

    You know, there's a saying among Freemasons. It's, `Ask one, to be one.' And that's all it takes. Try it sometime, if you are interested. But notice that they do not come door to door, nor will you ever find a Freemason proselytizing, or begging you to come join his lodge for the well-being and safety of your immortal soul. He knows better. And chances are good that he believes in the same God as you do. Err, well sort of. :(

    But many such individuals are quite bold. I assure you. And they are quite concerned about the welfare of others. This is evident in the work they do. "For ye shall know them by their fruits." Actions, not words. They testify to the God within, and to the Spirit of Christ Jesus, in many, many ways. But Freemasons will never accost you, or presume to proselytize. And thus they are some of the truest Christians you could ever hope to meet.

    And so, I've found, with those of many, many Christian denominations, whether Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, or Lutheran. And then there are the Christians who worship seven days a week, all day, every day, and who honor God - and Christ - by another name. See John 10:16. They, too, are bold. :)

    Love and Light,

    Andrew
     
  13. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    lol! That reminds me of the saying, "Man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt woman doing it!" :D
     
  14. Dor

    Dor Bible Thumper

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    I think what really takes courage, and is thus the challenge before us all, is to be able to stand and look at ourself in the mirror. Doesn't matter whether we're Christan or Buddhist, this is the opportunity we have - if we are brave, and ready.

    I respectyour opinions Andrew, but to alot of us it does matter. Yes I respect people's beliefs does not mean I have to believe they are right and can not share that with them.


    We don't have to find a high mountain cave somewhere, or make a lengthy pilgrimage, to confront our true self ... or to find God. But we do need to accept ourself as we are, and to recognize that the journey still lies ahead. That's all we have to do. And it does take humility, it takes honesty, it takes boldness.

    See in Christianity we can not do it by ourselves we need Jesus cause man can not ever do enough to make up and we can never become gods that is a New Age belief with no biblical basis.

    A few moments' quiet meditation, can re-center us and return us to the ground of being. The Christian will perhaps call this `prayer,' or speaking with Christ. And the Buddhist will call it `meditation,' and developing Bodhichitta, or contemplating Buddha Nature.

    Yes it is prayer to the Father through his son Jesus Christ. Not meditation so we can find some level of conscience that some guru says the Christ is.

    Isn't it interesting, that a Buddhist doesn't feel incomplete, if he seeks to practice loving-kindness, and show compassion for all creatures - for all people, regardless of faith or religious background? Isn't it amazing how very important to him is respect, and how the thought of converting, missionizing, or proselytizing is pretty much foreign to him? Isn't it neat, that he can be complete, and he can also help others to be more complete, to find Buddha Nature, to know Christ, or to find God, simply by practicing his own path?

    I know plenty of Christians that feel complete. How can a Buddhist(since you brought them up) help me to know Christ when they dont even believe in Jesus Christ(or are you talking about the whole conscience thing) and in Christianity(and I know it sounds exclusive) there is 1 way to God.

    The only Christians I have ever known, were no different than these Buddhists. And they make no apologies about being Christan, for isn't that a bit like apologizing that we have five fingers on each hand? :confused: They practice their Christianity in such a way, that unless asked, you might never know that they are Christian. And yet, they can smile, and those who "have the Christ presence," are as aware as they need to be. And not a word need be spoken.

    I will never have to apologize for being a Christian. I also will never feel like I have to hide it. I want everyone to know it.

    Ahhh, so the person over there on the shoulder with his hood up, and the white tshirt stuck in his window, you're saying that he does need some help??? That he does want for me to come help him try and start his car? And because he is specifically ASKING for it? Ohhh, I see.

    Then by all means, let me do something that 99% of the motorists on the highways today are afraid to do, let me be BOLD, and literally risk my life and limb - by stopping to help. ;) :) The Good Samaritan ... these are what we need more of.

    Yes I agree we need more good samaritans. I also will point out that the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslem, Jew, Enlighted Ones, and everyone else not just Christians are in the 99% that drive by.

    You know, there's a saying among Freemasons. It's, `Ask one, to be one.' And that's all it takes. Try it sometime, if you are interested. But notice that they do not come door to door, nor will you ever find a Freemason proselytizing, or begging you to come join his lodge for the well-being and safety of your immortal soul. He knows better. And chances are good that he believes in the same God as you do. Err, well sort of. :(

    Not really even sort of.:(

    But many such individuals are quite bold. I assure you. And they are quite concerned about the welfare of others. This is evident in the work they do. "For ye shall know them by their fruits." Actions, not words. They testify to the God within, and to the Spirit of Christ Jesus, in many, many ways. But Freemasons will never accost you, or presume to proselytize. And thus they are some of the truest Christians you could ever hope to meet.

    Good works are a nice thing but we are told what he thinks about them in the bible also.

    And so, I've found, with those of many, many Christian denominations, whether Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, or Lutheran. And then there are the Christians who worship seven days a week, all day, every day, and who honor God - and Christ - by another name. See John 10:16. They, too, are bold. :)

    Yes there are other names for example...Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace, Lamb of God, Messiah, Saviour.
    The world is desperately trying to turn attention and credibility away from Jesus while the Bible points directly to him.
     
  15. JustifiedByFaith

    JustifiedByFaith Contending For The Faith

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    Dear All,

    My challenge is to express the importance of "words". I think Dor is on the same page here and hope others see where I am going with this. My whole purpose in this thread is regarding the aspect of "speaking". It is my opinion that we as Christ's body have done a complete 360 degree turn from being overly aggressive and offensive in delivering the "gospel" to the opposite of being like passive jellyfish not wanting to hurt anyones feelings or have someone say they disagree with our message.
    Let's try to find some middle ground between "verbal" and "non-verbal" sharing of Jesus and God's word with others? The church seems to attempt to desire to "blend" with other beliefs somehow to create a gospel message that will "feel good" to everyone.:confused: Jesus didn't play the fense in order to be friends with everyone did He? He told the Pharisees what He thought about them. He told the "truth" when He spoke. Did the Apostle Paul share a message that worked out for everyone's own belief system? It seems that the body of Christ is becoming so "soft" in an effort to stay away from sharing the fact that Jesus is the only way and apart from faith in Him...the only option is eternal damnation. Are we more concerned how "spiritual" we look to our friends than how we "say" the truth to others? How can we pick up the tempo without going back to the street gospel "Hell-Fire" preaching?
     
  16. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    The blind man would stand, and preach the `gospel' to Christ Himself, if it made him feel better. And all he really wants, is for Christ to stop and listen. Or for anyone to listen. It's what makes him FEEL good, and sometimes, that's all that matters to him.

    Now it might be Christ, or it might be one of Christ's Elect, but it really doesn't matter. With all humility, and with no desire to change, or to enlighten that man, Christ would, and will, have the patience to listen - and to spend time with, these most zealous of followers. Christ doesn't even mind, if in their desire to do good, He suffers a few rebukes, and has a few foul, evil demons cast out - again, if it brings some feeling of accomplishment to this follower, perhaps it serves a purpose.

    Of course, if asked - Are you the Christ? - what do you suppose Christ would say? If asked, have I just totally humiliated myself, how do you think Christ would respond to these zealous missionaries? No fear, he wouldn't "rub it in," he wouldn't dwell on it. That wouldn't serve in the least. He would quite possibly commend them for the boldness that it sometimes takes - to speak what is in one's heart. And there, I am with you.

    If you can't understand the Christ in the heart of your brother, be he Buddhist, Muslim, or man of science (such as yourself, but with no religious interest), then I think you have something to think about. I'll leave that between you and Christ.

    As for becoming gods, you are apparently not familiar with the Old Testament scripture indicating that we ARE GODS ... nor with Christ's own quoting of this Scripture -("For is it not said IN YOUR SCRIPTURES, ye are gods?"). It's okay, you can look that one up too. ;)

    Hmmm, prayer vs. meditation? I know quite a few Christians who'd just laugh. I sure did. By the way, it's tomayto, not toMAHto. Get it right!

    To spit this back at me is evidence enough that you didn't read what I wrote. Please read it again.


    What who thinks about good works? And what is that? And what's your point?


    Hmmm, I think the Bible points to Christ's good deeds, and the Spirit of Love which inspired Him (or which He was, and which He embodied). I think it's good if we ourselves also seek to do good deeds, however small, in our daily lives. We don't have to work Christ's miracles, we just need to do what is attainable for us.

    Love and Light,

    andrew
     
  17. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Righteousness is the "only way" (to Salvation), and `eternal damnation' is something which, unfortunately, some people still say to scare small children. :mad: Also, self-righteousness is quite different than true righteousness of spirit. If I say, I need to DO NOTHING because I am "already saved," then I am being quite self-righteous. Because I am uttering the falsehood that I am already perfect, or that I am now immune from the Law that what goes around, comes around.

    Christ referred to the Law of Cause and Effect. He said, As ye sow, so shall ye reap. He did not say, if you believe I walked the earth, and speak my name often, I shall protect you from the outcome of your foul deeds, while making sure you get double helpings of reward for all the nice things you do. Don't believe me? Try walking out in front of a bus. Ask God to spare your life because you are saved. No really. Try it. :rolleyes:

    Righteousness. I wonder. Can we speak of it without feeling it necessary to quote a dozen Biblical passages and invoke the name of Jesus fifteen times in the same sentence? I can. I dare say I can render, in simple enough terms, which ANY Christian can understand, a decent definition of righteous. And THAT is the way to Salvation, as Jesus demonstrated (not by just preaching it, but by LIVING it, and by BEING it). Can we do that too?

    Gee I hope so. :)

    Love and Light,

    andrew
     
  18. Dor

    Dor Bible Thumper

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    Well no one I know says anything about Righteousness being a way to salvation it sure isnt a Christian belief.
    Isa 64:6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Eternal damnation you say is something people use to scare small children. Well in love and light why dont you go ahead and tell me again why your beliefs are right and mine or so wrong and are scare tactics.



    Just cause I am saved does not mean I have to do nothing or have a free ticket to go do anything I want. It has absolutely nothing to do with being perfect I can never become perfect. But it does make me immune to the law because I am under his grace from that point on.

    Well no Andrew he didnt exactly say those words he did however say
    Joh 3:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



    [QUOTE]I dare say I can render, in simple enough terms, which ANY Christian can understand, a decent definition of righteous. And THAT is the way to Salvation, as Jesus demonstrated (not by just preaching it, but by LIVING it, and by BEING it). Can we do that too?[/QUOTE]

    Yes we can try and live as Jesus did of course we can not do it but we can try but no that is not a way to salvation. Thinking he was a good guy and trying to be as good as he was doesnt quite cut it there is a reason the word believe is used so many times in the Gospels.



    Will he save me from a moving bus if I step out in front of it? We are not worried about now Andrew he saved us for eternity.
     
  19. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Hmm, regarding Christian boldness and righteousness, will this do?
    <edit to continue with Matt Chapter 5>
     
  20. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Absolutely. Quite numerous were they, in Jesus' day. And today as well. Funny, not much has changed. Or as my good friend sometimes says, history repeats itself.

    Thank you, yes, the quotes about shining the Light are most appropriate. It's when I see things like this:
    Well no one I know says anything about Righteousness being a way to salvation it sure isnt a Christian belief.
    ... that I have to wonder. Got a bit of wax in there, eh? :rolleyes: Ah well, no problem.
    Isnt life strange
    A turn of the page
    A book without light
    Unless with love we write;
    To throw it away
    To lose just a day
    The quicksand of time
    You know it makes me want to cry, cry, cry -


    If my beliefs are "right" and yours wrong, Dor, which I do not assert, then perhaps it is because I have room to include you in all that I hold sacred and dear. I can do this, and you are in no wise lesser, or un-saved, or anything except a fellow human being. You are on THE path, just as is everyone else. Not YOUR path, as opposed to MY path. These distinctions, however accurate, are secondary.

    You are a PERSON first, a Christian second. And a child of God, no matter what. NOTHING you can do would change that, in any way. And I will say the same to a Buddhist, Muslim, Wiccan, or New-Ager, though perhaps the religious identity is quite different in each case. The differences, the diversity, is to be celebrated, not despised. The sheep of other flocks, all come under the care of the One Shepherd. But I am not offended by the Buddhist, who uses a different metaphor, and speaks of the Buddha, the Sangha, Buddha-nature, and how the Dharma manifests differently for each of us. Are you? :)

    My mother used to say something to me, and of course, at the time, I behaved as a stubborn child, and was even quite spiteful. Certainly I did not have the humility, or least bit of interest, in acknowledging that she was right. But she's my mother, and I finally came around. ;)

    She said (usually a bit heated), "you'd argue with a signpost, and still go the wrong way." Now my good friend Dor, whom I know well enough, has a predictable reaction. Fire away. I opened myself to it, I can smile, and laugh, and let you have your jab. If it makes you feel better, go ahead and spit. It was often the reaction then, and not much has changed.

    My mother's point, was not altogether like Shakespeare's observation, though perhaps the poet expressed it more eloquently. A rose, by any other name ...

    Jesus does not care if some recognize His light, His love, and His message, but call out another name with their human tongue. It is how they answer in their heart, and how they show this with their actions (and attitude), toward their fellow man, that matters most. I know many a Christian who will acknowledge this. I know a handful more (some on here), who recognize this, but who also know good and well ... what will shortly follow.

    Ah, the martyr complex. I guess us 6th-Ray'ers just can't seem to shake it. I sure can't. :p

    There's the expression, preaching to the choir. Then again, there are quite a few self-appointed preachers in this world. I like to remember Matthew 7:21 every so often ...

    Love (which is inclusive, and blind, meaning non-discriminative), and Light (which, like the Sun, shines upon ALL the Earth, and hides itself from NO MAN),

    andrew
     

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