The Bible as Astrology

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by Nogodnomasters, Oct 11, 2003.

  1. Nogodnomasters

    Nogodnomasters New Member

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    BB- The Torah is in part a history book. Many of the events did occur in spite of your disbelief.

    I do not have to know how Talmud logic worked. That would be one man's opinion pitted against another. What I claim and demonstrated is that they used other people's myths, as indicated by Robert Graves to interpret their stories. This sends up a red flag as to the astrological origin of the tales. By knowing which Greek myth the Talmud compares tales in the Torah to, I know which constellation to look at for comparison. By then taking the ancient names of the Arabic and Hebrew stars in that constellation and comparing it to the Torah, I find an incredible match, repeated in 48 constellations in a contiguous manner.

    If everyone is wrong but Johnny, that is fine. After looking at all the objections you muster and what little to no evidence you have supplied to contradict me, I must still conclude I am right and you are wrong. In fact you have supplied virtually no evidence to counter me, other than to say "I am wrong because there are Rabbis who don't believe this." Big Deal.

    For many people making the Torah astrological makes them more sacred, not less.
     
  2. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    er.. what i am saying is that it is not a history book in academic history terms. the closest i could get to it is the term "sacred history", but frankly, that does not really advance our understanding of the text a great deal. the point is that anyone who expects the Torah to function as a provider of evidence for or against the prevailing archaeological timeline is likely to find this just as problematic as expecting it to provide evidence for art criticism. the Torah takes place in "sacred time", meaning that the six days of creation, for example, are not meant to be taken literally in terms we might understand. ditto for the begats and the generations. those are there to teach us stuff, not to tell us how old the world is or how long methuselah lived, which is not really going to help anyone find any meaning in life. so what i disbelieve is not whether the events in the Torah "happened", because i do not require Torah to confirm history and archaeology, which are greek disciplines from outside Torah - which doesn't make them less valid or interesting.

    if you want to use the Talmud's arguments to support your opinions, you actually do have to know what they are, i'm afraid. that would be like saying that reading a heart surgery book qualifies you to have opinions on which heart surgery techniques are best. but who is better qualified to judge this effectiveness or otherwise? you? or a doctor, who knows the context of the heart surgery book within medicine rather better.

    Talmudic procedure establishes that majority rules, although the opinions of the minority (such as that of the chap who likes his astrology) must be safeguarded. however, it's certainly not a matter of "there are rabbis who don't believe this" in the case of astrology. in other words, "one man's opinion against another" is not at all how it works - although i can very well believe the numbers supporting yours. either way, you haven't responded to my refutation of your interpretation of the pro-astrology opinion on shabbat 165a, so far from my having "supplied virtually no evidence", i think it's rather the other way round.

    in short, it is you who have yet to provide any evidence (other than your general opinion) that the majority opinion supports the astrological origin of the source Torah. in fact, you haven't provided any evidence for a case where any authoritative opinion even supports astrological interpretations. by all means show me something in the Talmud where somebody gives the the Torah an astrological interpretation and i will be delighted to discuss it with you. however, without an understanding of the chain of interpretational authority (discussed at the beginning of the Mishnah, in the "ethics of the fathers") and its role in interpretation, as well as the "baraita of rabbi ishmael" and the 32 rules of interpretation, the logic of the Talmud may prove elusive. i can very well refer to better qualified people for an explanation, but i fear not even this will not satisfy you.

    as for the kabbalists, even the most cursory reading of the most relevant kabbalistic text, the sefer yetzirah, suggests that the "twelve constellations" actually conform to more fundamental mathematical rules derived from the *hebrew alphabet*, not the other way round. the letters themselves are far more fundamental a level of granularity. to suggest, therefore, that you have evidence the kabbalists support your theory is pretty unconvincing.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  3. bob x

    bob x New Member

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    There are no "serpents in star formations", there are simply several places in the sky where, if you like, you can visualize a line of stars as being a snake. Why do think that the "Hydra" formation, as opposed to any of the others, is what the authors had in mind? You have drawn no connection between the story and that set of stars, or any set of stars. What connection do you see between the story and the star-formation? It all sounds completely arbitrary, and you have done nothing to make it sound less so.
     
  4. Nogodnomasters

    Nogodnomasters New Member

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    It is a good question. The answer is location, location and location. Others who have done research in this area have concluded Draco is the serpent of the garden with Ursa Minor as the Tree of Knowledge. I originally had it that way too. However I discovered a pattern, or a method to the madness, including a limit use or single use to the constellations (except for the story of Samson for some strange reason.)

    The serpent had to be close to Adam and Eve according to the pattern. Adam is Leo, Eve is Virgo. Hydra is at the foot of both Leo and Virgo. In the Babylonian "Adam and Eve seal" depicts the serpent on both sides of the happy couple and on the date palm itself. Dated to about 2400 BCE, it is the basis of the Garden of Eden story. On Hydra is Corvus the crow. Corvus was associated with the fig tree (hence a slight connection) . Next to Corvus is Crater, the cup. This was the ancient sacred cup which gave everlasting life and knowledge. It was the Holy Grail in Chrsitianity, however 2000 BCE it would have been the fruit of the tree of knowledge. The constelltions have changed in their form, but the meanings or significance is the same.

    Serpens wasn't a serpent in 2000 BCE, it was sheep's tail. That eliminated that as a source.

    Unfortunately I didn't change from Draco until I was working on the conquests of Joshua. As it turned out Draco was the constelletion of the northern kingdoms who attacked Joshua. The head of Draco was actually the city Hazor, which was known for its Hathor worshipping. Later when I compared Egypt's stories to astrology I discovered Draco was also Hathor (as a Hippo). I see Draco as becoming a later serpent in the heavens. This invasion from Draco of the north is the basis of the prophecy of the end times in Revelation.

    In later mythology Draco would manifest himself as a snake, and become Satan who was cast out the heavens. This appears to be a case of constellation evolution, which went hand in hand with changes to Hebrew theology, who adopted Satan very late, based on a Babylonian god.

    Ursa Minor turned also turned up in a later story also. The style of writing, coupled with constellation placement and flow, forced me to keep these stories.

    Now having said this, I will add that stories were added to the original text using these same constellations in a different manner. For instance Noah released a dove. This dove is the constellation Columba, which is a dove, known as "the dove of Noah." A story or line that was added to the tale of Noah was that he released a raven 8:7. This raven is clearly Corvus, which we used as a tree. We know that the crow or raven was used in parallel flood stories such as Gilgamesh. This insertion appears to have been added by an outside influence on the astro-theology of the Hebrews.

    The constellation Orion was Noah after the flood, castrated by his son according to a Midrash. This is the same story as Uranus being castrated by Cronus in Greek mythology. The OT uses this constellation for Nimrod, the great hunter. This story was added centuries later. Later Nimrod with his foot crushing Lepus would represent the slaughter of the innocents which was a midrash in the story of Abraham. Orion would later become Herod as he kills the innocents, with the magi in his belt and star of the east in Sirius.

    Editing is the key to the Noah tale. This story has had at least two redactions. This is evidence by verses 7:1, 7:7, and 7:13 which all have Noah and his family enter the ark. Two stories were added to this tale. It looks like the first story was the loading of the pairs of animals, and the second addition made some of them "clean beasts" which is an anachronism. Again in chapter 8 we have in the waters drying up in verse 3 and the ark resting on Ararat in verse 4. Then there is still water and the ark doesn't rest again to verse 13/14. There was some added text in between these verses. Chapter 8 properly edited should be verses 8:2b, 3a 8-12, 13b and I question verses 8-12. Columba may have also been a late constellation addition.

    Now I know my critics would claim this was the style of writing. To first explain something plainly and then give details. I claim that it is due to a later editor and not a bad writing style and I use astrology as my proof of the original text. I.E. How perfectly the astrology meshes and flows without the added material.
     
  5. Kaldayen

    Kaldayen Spiritual ronin

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    There's something at the base of your theory that I don't understand.

    How do you connect the different characters with an astrological sign? I haven't read the Bible but.. are their birthdate written anywhere? What with the second part of the quote, do you know the exact date of the "flood" to associate it to astrology?
     
  6. bob x

    bob x New Member

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    Why? How about Adam=Cepheus, Eve=Cassiopeia? Or Adam=Scorpio, Eve=Bootes? Any constellation is as arbitrary in any role as any other, for all that you have said so far.
    What does a crow have to do with a fig tree? What does a cup have to do with a piece of fruit? You are not giving any reasoning for associating any star-group with anything in particular.
    That constellation was first given that name in the 17th century AD. It is named after the story: the stories come first, and then star-groups are named for mnemonic purposes; the star-groups themselves don't suggest any particular story.
     
  7. Nogodnomasters

    Nogodnomasters New Member

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    Columba is a questionable constellation as the story appears where the verses should be removed. I.E. the whole story of the dove was added later. It appears between 8:3-4 when the earth dried and ark rested and again between 8:13,14 when the earth dried up. Is it a coincidence that those who named the constellation placed it under Noah (Orion) and east of the ark (Argo?) or did they know or suspect something?

    The mythical tale of Corvus is associated with a fig tree. Drinking from the cup gave knowledge as did eating of the fruit.

    Cephus, Cassiopeia, Bootes, and Scorpio are used elsewhere.

    Leo and Virgo are the constellations normally associated with Adam and Eve. Hebrew entomology of the word Adam means to be flush or make red. This is associated with the red star Regulus. In Egypt Atum was the double red faced lion associated both with Leo and the setting sun. Regulus would be also associated with the rising sun as YHWH placed a rotating sword of fire in the east.

    The god Ptah created Atum from a lump of clay. He puts sight in his eyes, hearing in his ears and breaths in his nostrils.

    Adam is based on Atum and Atum is Leo. In translating from Egyptian to Hebrew, vowels are interchangable as are the letters "d' and "t" or so I have read. This would make the spellings of the names identical, although that is not as important as the similarities in the tales.

    Eve or Virgo was created from Adam's rib. A midrash claimed Adam had a tail or tailbone was used. There is a shared star between Virgo and Adam known as Sarcam, which literally means "the joining."

    Leo means "to tread upon the serpent" or "Old serpent destroyed". It's paws are above Hydra. Other stars in Leo are Al Dafera, "the enemy put down" Denebola, "the judge" and Denab Aleced "the judge who comes and seizes" all which relate to the serpent story and god's judgment.

    Eve or Hawwah is explained by Robert Graves as possibly being the Hebrew version of Heba, Hebat, Khebat, or Khilba. She is depicted as riding a lion in a sculpture. She was worshipped in Jerusalem. Her Greek name was Heba, Heracles' goddess-wife.

    Eve is similar to Demeter or Ceres as the grain goddess, or the godess of the garden. This is Spica, an ear of corn. On Denerah Virgo is Isis. Spica in Hebrew astrology is named Tsemech or "branch". This name is symbolic of a coming son or branch. Al Mureddin another star in Virgo is "the branch that cometh" and is associoated with a grape gatherer (Noah) who would reddem man from the curse of the earth by giving us wine.

    In Babylon, Virgo was the human wife of the god Bel (Canaanite Baal.) As the wife of Bel she represented an earthly virgin, in that she did not intercourse with mortal men. Bel was the son of Ea (Canaanite El) . He was the "Lord of Wisdom" . When he spoke a word it was created.

    The Persians figured that Ursa Minor was the Myrobalanum (plum fruit used in dyeing), or date-palm seed or fruit, which the group stars was thought to resemble. The date palm is seen as a symbol of the world axis (or polar axis), or Tree of Life. ("The righteous shall flourish like the date palm" -Psalm 91: 12). In their Eden or Eridu as it was called the tree was called “the shrine of the two”. On an Assyrian cylinder the early couple is pictured as sitting by the seven branched tree with a serpent by the woman. The legend of the fall comes from the third tablet of the creation. There was a command established “in sin one with the other in compact joined.” The fruit that the couple ate was “broke in two, its stalk destroyed. Great is their sin. Themselves are exalted. The gods then appointed their fate.” This apparently evolved into the fall of man. The Hebrews did not use Ursa Minor, but copied the story.

    The Babylon marriage ritual reminds us of the garden:

    Dumuzi says: “My sister, I would go with you to the garden.
    Inanna, I would go with you to my garden.
    I would go with you to my orchard.
    I would go with you to my apple tree.
    There I would plant the sweet, honey covered seed.”

    It is from Babylon we get the idea the fruit is an apple and associated with sexual sin.

    The story of Corvus: “Under Corvus was the story that Apollo sent a crow to fetch water in the god's cup. The crow got back very late, because he waited at a fig tree for some luscious figs to ripen before returning. He brought back a water snake along with the water-filled cup and told Apollo that the serpent had caused the delay. Apollo, however, could not be deceived by the lie. The angry god placed the crow, the cup (Crater) and the water snake (Hydra) among the stars, where the snake guards the water from the everlastingly thirsty crow.”

    The fig tree, the blaming of the serpent and deceit are all elements of the tale of Eden.

    There are several schools of thought on the correct Biblical astral theology. I have presented what I believe to be the correct interpretation. For instance, the serpent at the heel of either the woman and/ or her offspring could also be seen in the relationship of Virgo to the constellation Libra. At one point in time Virgo-Libra-Scorpio were considered one constellation. The ‘J” school of thought claims Leo/Virgo/Hydra was a serpent at the heel of Leo. Massey disagrees and relates everything to Draco/ Hercules. A case could even be made for Ophiuchus/Scorpio. One can fit all the jig-saw pieces together and not have a picture. The continuity of this work would demand that Leo/Hydra is the correct selection as those other constellations are used elsewhere.

     
  8. Nogodnomasters

    Nogodnomasters New Member

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    The Hebrews' Circular Time Line

    Our whole idea of placing the Bible text into a historical time line is that we think of time lines as linear. When we try to impose linear thinking on a circular object we fail. Remember this was God’s history, his writing, his story, his way of thinking. It was not for man to fully understand- until now.

    A simplified view of the Circular Time Line is “history repeats itself.” The Hebrews chose this view of history because it matches the heavens. All that happens on earth happens in the heavens- over and over again.

    Let’s create a hypothetical situation to understand this. Suppose an American history book is written covering the time from the American Revolution through World War II. Now let’s suppose the events written about were considered to be the design or intent of God herself. These events were placed in the heavens using the names of some existing constellations and stars and fabricating names of others.

    This was God’s history. It is circular. Time as we know it does not stop at World War II. Now let’s suppose somewhere along the line it was decided the Vietnam War was ordained by God and part of the overall big picture of His history. Instead of tacking this episode on to end of the saga for a linear time line, it is inserted somewhere in the existing history. In this case let’s again presume we have a star/constellation involving jungle warfare in Asia in the Philippines at the turn of the century. Vietnam would be deemed to be similar to the warfare in the Philippines and placed in their constellation/star. This addition may just be a just a simple “and Vietnam” tacked on to “the Philippines” or it may be a full blown insertion describing aspects of the war, including military hardware.

    This is not a problem for those who see this as God’s circular word, but raises havoc with the future historian or archeologist who attempts to create a linear time line form the circular one.

    The best example of a story in the Bible which has drove historian bonkers attempting to place is the saga of Moses and the Exodus. No matter what period one picks there are strong arguments for and against it. This is because there at least three Moses stories from three separate and distinct time periods.

    The first one was from the Early Bronze Age. This was the original story which equates Moses to Sargon I. There was another Exodus in play with the Hyksos expulsion from the Middle Bronze Age, hundreds of years later. There are also elements of conquered cities from the Iron Age, and /or perhaps a reference to the invasion of the People of the Seas or the Habiru. This was about a thousand years later from the original text. Researchers do not realize they are looking at least three different periods blended as one tale.

    Another addition was that of Hammurabi as David/Solomon. This would come at the end of the saga as that is where it occurred astrologically. Apparently Hammurabi was identified with the constellations of Sagittarius and the Southern Crown.

    At some point in time years were added to the Bible text. I am speculating that perhaps some of these time periods mean something in the relationship of Earth years to the astrological cycle. There was a 400 year gap between Joseph and Moses. It is possible this was added when the author (s) added the Middle Age expulsion to the tale. This was done to indicate this was on a different cycle or loop from the original text by attempting to separate the pharaohs in the story. I would conjecture 400 years was considered the approximate time of an astrological history cycle. Another common time period used in the Bible is 40 years. This I would infer was considered the time frame of a constellation story. After 40 years it was time to move to a new constellation. Moses wondered the desert for 40 years (Cetus.) David ruled for 40 years (Sagittarius.) Solomon ruled for 40 years (Southern Crown.)
     
  9. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    This is a striking statement - I would be interested to see how this is supported from an achaeological/historical argument, rather than an astrological one (presuming that is the case). Do you have any more information on this argument? If so, it could make for an interesting new thread. :)
     
  10. Nogodnomasters

    Nogodnomasters New Member

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    Actually I am just scratching the surface on this one. This was the logical conclusion that came out of the astrology idea. We can eliminate the astrology aspect, but then one would ask, "why did they use a circular time line?"

    There are many texts which were added to the original even if one simply used the concept of the Wellhausen and using the Book of J as the original text.

    Some stories or ideas which were added:

    First creation
    Lineage from Seth to Noah
    Mt. Ararat, the dove, the raven
    Nimrod
    Tower of Babal.
    Lot's daughters
    Abraham in Egypt
    Hagar and Ismael
    Entire story of Solomon as king
    Children of Saul and their relationship with David
    All of David's wives except Bethsheba
    Joshua crossing the River Jordan
    Barren birth of Issac
    The second conquest of the Joshua of the 5 kings-which lists different cities in case you haven't noticed
    Everything in between Samson and the story of David vs. Goliath
    Joseph and Potiphar's wife and his rise from prison
    Many details from the story of Moses including all references to Aaron. (Things that stay- floating in a basket, evil Pharaoh, Moses wife-Midianite,Gershom, a few plagues, burning bush, river crossing, Mt. Sinai- getting one set of 10 commandments, conquest of Amorites and bonding with the Moabites- no desert wondering for 40 years, no rebuilding of the Egyptian city, no Heshbon)
    No pillar of salt for Lot's wife.
    Only two cities destroyed, not 5.
     
  11. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    That may be, but how does J relate to a Moses-Sargon I construct, as well as reference to Hyksos and the sea-peoples?
     
  12. Nogodnomasters

    Nogodnomasters New Member

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    Moses-Sargon is a classic relationship in the birth tale. Not many people are found floating down a river in a basket, but in this case both these guys were. There are a few other similarities too in this tale. What is interesting is that Moses' basket was sealed with pitch. This substance was not used to a much later period in Egypt. This indicates the story originated elsewhere- such as Babylon where Sargon's basket was sealed with Bitumen. Both Moses and Sargon were conquerors of the Amorites. Other than this they don't seem to have a lot in common. The story of Sargon:

    “My lowly mother conceived and bore me in secrecy; placed me in a basket of rushes; sealed with bitumen, and set me in a river, which how­ever did not engulf me. The river bore me up. And it carried me to Akku, the irrigator, who took me from the river, raised me as his son, and made me a gardener: and while I was a gardener, the goddess Ishtar loved me. Then I ruled the kingdom…”


    Sinuhe is the tale of an Egyptian palace official. At the death of the old king, he fears strife and flees Egypt to build a new life in exile under a ruler in Syria. At the height of his powers he is challenged to a duel by a Syrian champion: Sinuhe kills his opponent in the duel, and begins a period of peace. The amazing tale of this era combines the basic elements of the story of Moses and David. It is dated at the death of Amen-em-het I circa 1960 B.C.E. Sinuhe was an archer and would have been associated with the constellation Sagittarius. His fight against Retenu has some of the elements of David vs. Goliath.

    Avaris (Ex 1:11) was the capital city of the Hyksos.

    The Amarna Letters written circa 1350-1334 BCE have elements of the invasion of Joshua.

    Jericho and Ai however both fell nearly a thousand years earlier.

    Arad, a city conquered by Moses fell circa 2700 BCE while Arad the next city he conquered didn't exist until 1500 years later.

    The Sea Peoples (not too sure how they relate to the Bible) attacked Ramesses III circa 1175 BCE, this was the time Bible chronology places the Hebrews as conquering and settling their home land. This attack on Egypt is the background for the sea attack on Egypt in Homer's work.

    The Hittites were destroyed circa 1150 BCE with only a few very small settlements having survived. This makes Uriah as a Hittite an unlikely senerio for a David circa 950 BCE. In fact the destruction of Palestine was so complete, this area was in a "dark age" at a time when the Bible tells us great city states existed as a United Monarchy. These great Canaanite city states existed in the Middle Bronze Age and were ruled over by Babylon. Hammurabi, the great wise law giver, writer of proverbs etc. was the ruler.

    The most famous king in this era was Hammurabi who created a creed or law which was believed to have influenced the laws of the Hebrews. In 1986 Dean Hickman published an article The Dating of Hammurabi where he gathers evidence that Hammurabi was a contemporary of David and Solomon. Rather than place David and Solomon in the era of Hammurabi, for which we have evidence; he opted to place Hammurabi in the 10th century B.C.E. to be a contemporary of the supposed era of David and Solomon, for which there is no archaeological evidence. He lists similarities between Zimri-Lim, a contemporary of Hammurabi and Rezin (or Rezon), Syrian adversary of King Solomon, and son of Eliada (I Kings 11:23).

    Hammurabi's opponents are: Zimri lim (king of Mari, 1780-1760 B.C.E.), Samsi-Adad (king of Assur, 1810-1785 B.C.E.) and Rim-Sim (king of Larsa, with a long reign 1825-1765 B.C.E.) Samsi-Adad is Hadadezer, the Syrian, David’s opponent.

    Hammurabi obtains a monopoly over Mesopotamia by a combination of clever politics and military successes. This era was also known as the age of proverb writing. The court tales and battles of David and Solomon would be of this period. There is no evidence for a United Monarchy such as this in the 10th century B.C.E.


    Hammurabi was Solomon.

    Also originally Adam's wife had no name. Eve was later added circa 1600 BCE (my guess-height of Hittite influence on Jerusalem) as a Hittite influence of the goddess Heba. Prior to this they believed his wife was named Lilith, a name of Babylonian influence. This is why her name appears in the Midrashes. The original text was based on a Babylonian myth where the woman was a goddess and only the man gets exiled from paradise (several versions, in some the woman leaves too.)

    In Genesis 3:23-24 only "the man" is driven from paradise. Nothing is mentioned about the woman. The story was doctored. The curses were added as was the name Eve to make it appear she got the boot also.



     
  13. Thresher

    Thresher New Member

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    I just finished reading the Book of Hiram. It has some interesting theories and ideas on the role of astronomy/astrology from the alignment of temples to the shekinah. It's an interesting read.
     
  14. Aardvark01

    Aardvark01 New Member

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    Hi Nogod,
    I presume the word you intended was "etymology". Entomology is the study of insects:).

    Hebrew uses the 'phonetic' script developed by the Canaanites while ancient Egyptian used a combination of phonetics and idiograms. The languages are both semitic and were probably mutually intelligible at one time, but we cannot be certain of the "t" and "d" sounds in the Egyptian.

    None the less, I agree that the possibility of a link between Atum and Adam looks strong enough on the grounds of the story, though I would question which direction the story travelled. Canaan was long treated as a suzerainty of Egypt and its people were the great traders in goods and knowledge. My reading leads me to think it just as likely that Egypt, having adopted stories from Sumer and Akkad, also adopted stories from Canaanite lands, including Israel and Judah.

    Whether or not there is an etymological link between "Adam" and "red" I do not know. What I do know is that the relationship between "Adam" and "dust/clay" is quite clear in the Hebrew. It is the same as the relationship between "man" (ish) and "woman" (ishah) and stallion (sus) and mare (susah). ie. the female of a noun is formed by adding "ah" to the male. The Hebrew word translated as either "dust" or "clay" is "adamah".
    What the story in Genesis 2 tells us is that Adam (male) was formed from dust/clay (female). Clay is often (but not always) red, but I think the key point is that inanimate "matter" (a word with the same etymological root as "mother" incidentally) effectively gave birth to living, sentient beings. This is rather close to the story that science now tells us.
     

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