Is This A Qur'anic Contradiction?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Gnostradamus, Sep 16, 2006.

?

Is this a clear contradiction?

  1. yes

    33.3%
  2. No

    66.7%
  1. Gnostradamus

    Gnostradamus Member

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    A common criticism of Muslims against the Bible is that there appear to be contradictions, and at the same time the Qur'an is supposedly free of contradictions.
    Though my intention here is not to inflame anyone, there can be no doubt that there will be some heated responses to this thread.
    The purpose of this thread is to measure the opinions of people from as many faiths as possible, not just Abrahamic faiths.

    ...........................................................................................................

    Here is part of Salih's story in the Qur'an;


    Surah 7:73


    Quote:To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment.


    Now compare this to the following;


    Surah 5:103


    Quote:It was not Allah who instituted (superstitions like those of) a slit-ear she-camel, or a she-camel let loose for free pasture, or idol sacrifices for twin-births in animals, or stallion-camels freed from work: It is blasphemers who invent a lie against Allah; but most of them lack wisdom.


    The arabic word used in this verse is Sa'ibah which is interpreted as follows;


    Ibn Ishaq the Muslim Historian was quoted in the biography of Muhammad (Ar-Raheequl-Makhtum by Safiyr-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri);

    Quote:Sa'ibah; a female camel that gave birth to ten successive females, but no males. It was then set free and all were forbidden to tie her, shear off her wool, or milk her.

    Ibn Hisham 1/90-90;

    Quote:A she-camel consecutively giving birth to ten female calves without the intervention of any male calf was tabooed and was named al-sa'ibah. She was not to be used for riding or carrying any load, her hair was not to be trimmed and her milk was not to be drunk except by a guest.



    I have drawn three parallels;
    1) Both she-camels
    2) Both set loose for free pasture
    3) Both were miraculous signs and therefore tabboo.


    So from a completely unbiased point of view, what would you make of this?

    .
     
  2. james

    james Active Member

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    its different stories, the poeple before islam used to traet she camels in particualr ways depending on certain things, and payed extra attention to them as if they were like sacred. the quran doesnt contradict, its telling us about the past ie,beofre islam, thats what the majority or all is about
     
  3. Gnostradamus

    Gnostradamus Member

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    I understand that it was a pre-Islamic practice. What I'm getting at is that in one verse Allah's prophet Salih brought with him a "sign" which appears to be a Sa'ibah camel, in the other verse Allah is dissociated from Sa'ibah, Wasilah, Hami, and Bahira.
    Thank you for replying without the spirit of confrontation :)
     
  4. aburaees

    aburaees Well-Known Member

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    So what you're trying to say is that Allah's she-camel in Salih's story (7:73) is exactly the type of camel that Allah did not institute (5:103)?

    I must admit that this is really quite interesting and I hadn't come across it before now... would like to reserve my vote until I know a little more.

    Does anyone know what made Salih's camel so special, other than the fact that she belonged to Allah, what was it about her that qualified her to be a "sign" - other than the possibility she may have been Saiba?
     
  5. Gnostradamus

    Gnostradamus Member

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    Yes, that is what I'm getting at.

    Allah did institute Saibah - 7:73
    Allah did not institute Saibah - 5:103

    For a nation that had special rites for miraculous camels, it seems odd that Allah would send a prophet with a miraculous camel, only to condemn these customs later on.

    So if I'm mistaken I would appreciate it if someone would correct me and explain why Salih's camel was miraculous, and was not at the same time a Saibah camel.
     
  6. The Lord

    The Lord Divine Intervention

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    No contradiction. Here is a summary of Salih's story.

    ---

    Salih was sent to the people of Thamud. Water was scarce at the time, and the privileged class tried to prevent the poor and their cattle from having access to the springs and pastures. Salih told them that God had sent a Sign to the arrogant oppressors of the poor in the form of a she-camel. This was a test case to see if the haughty, rich people would come to see reason. Salih wanted them to allow the she-camel to graze without any hindrance. He warned them that they should have no evil intentions toward her, or the wrath of God would fall upon them.
    But the chiefs of the tribes jeered at him; they asked the people not to believe in what Salih said. Some did not listen to them and heeded Salih's call, but many followed the advice of their chiefs. And as a mark of their defiance, they hamstrung the she-camel and killed her, challenging Salih to bring upon them the calamity which he had threatened them with. Salih therefore left Thamud with his followers, and soon thereafter there was a dreadful earthquake, which destroyed the inhabitants of Thamud, burying them along with their castles and palaces.

    ---

    As you can see, the she-camel in this case had no special attributes or qualities except that it was chosen to test their reaction. It could have been a cow or a goat, if that was what the people of Thamud had, and it would not have mattered.
     
  7. Gnostradamus

    Gnostradamus Member

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    So the camel itself was not a sign until after it had been hamstrung and Allah's punishment delivered?
     
  8. The Lord

    The Lord Divine Intervention

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    The she-camel was the "line in the sand," nothing more.

    Look, in modern terms the story is equivalent to something like this. A gang of hooligans are taking control of a parking lot for their criminal activities. Every time anyone outside of the gang tries to park his car they either destroy it, damage it, steel it, or attack the person himself. So Mr. Rambo, who was hired by the Secret Police, takes his car to the lot and parks it in the prime spot. Then he calls out to all the gang members and warns them of even thinking about touching his car. He states that if he even finds one scratch on the car he will destroy the garage and hunt all the gang members till they all are dead. Now the fact that his car was a Ford is of no import in the matter. It could have been a Toyota or a Mercedes and the meaning would be the same.

    So, in Salih’s story it was not important that she was a camel, or of what characteristics. Salih's “test” used a she-camel because that was what the people had at the time.
     
  9. inhumility

    inhumility Active Member

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    Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment."
    Saleh used that she-camel for travel to far off places to spread God's teachings as mentioned in the verse ,namely, "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other God but Him."This is the primary teaching of every prophet of God.When Thamud did not listen to him, rather than accepting Saleh's teachings they jeered at him and opposed him.Like Noah who was ordered to make a boat as a sign from God,and God drowned his opponents in the flood and saved his truthful followers.Likewise this she-camel,othewise an ordinary she-camel was made a sign as she was used frequently by Saleh to spread the highest truth of ONENESS of God;when they harmed it God punished them.That's a permanent attribute of God to support his Prophets/Messengers/Guided Ones by God and to punish the arrogants.Like God gave signs to Moses.What wrong has this she-camel done to the people that they harmed her?This shows the bad nature of those people.Why they slaughterd an innocent animal?No reason.They were not peace-loving people.
    This is an Ahmadia view-a faith in Islam.
    Thanks
     
  10. farhan

    farhan Well-Known Member

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    The contradiction is in translation ( or conclusion ) & no in Quran . 7:73 talks about Naqah, meaning any shecamel . The verse never says anything about it being a saibah . That she camel was born out of a rock, & that was the miricle. 5:103 talks about superstitions like Saibah etc . Both verses deal with different concepts .

    Ibn Kathir describes 7:73 as follows


    Prophet Salih said,



    ("Indeed there has come to you a clear sign from your Lord. This she-camel of Allah is a sign unto you;'') meaning, a miracle has come to you from Allah testifying to the truth of what I came to you with. Salih's people asked him to produce a miracle and suggested a certain solid rock that they chose, which stood lonely in the area of Hijr, and which was called Al-Katibah. They asked him to bring a pregnant camel out of that stone. Salih took their covenant and promises that if Allah answers their challenge, they would believe and follow him. When they gave him their oaths and promises to that, Salih started praying and invoked Allah (to produce that miracle). All of a sudden, the stone moved and broke apart, producing a she-camel with thick wool. It was pregnant and its fetus was visibly moving in its belly, exactly as Salih's people asked. This is when their chief, Jundu` bin `Amr, and several who followed him believed. The rest of the noblemen of Thamud wanted to believe as well, but Dhu'ab bin `Amr bin Labid, Al-Habbab, who tended their idols, and Rabbab bin Sum`ar bin Jilhis stopped them. One of the cousins of Jundu` bin `Amr, whose name was Shihab bin Khalifah bin Mikhlat bin Labid bin Jawwas, was one of the leaders of Thamud, and he also wanted to accept the message. However, the chiefs whom we mentioned prevented him, and he conceded to their promptings. The camel remained in Thamud, as well as, its offspring after she delivered it before them. The camel used to drink from its well on one day and leave the well for Thamud the next day. They also used to drink its milk, for on the days she drank water, they used to milk her and fill their containers from its milk. Allah said in other Ayat,



    (And inform them that the water is to be shared between (her and) them, each one's right to drink being established (by turns)) ﴿54:28﴾ and,



    (Here is a she-camel: it has a right to drink (water), and you have a right to drink (water) (each) on a day, known) ﴿26:155﴾ The camel used to graze in some of their valleys, going through a pass and coming out through another pass. She did that so as to be able to move easily, because she used to drink a lot of water. She was a tremendous animal that had a strikingly beautiful appearance. When she used to pass by their cattle, the cattle would be afraid of her. When this matter continued for a long time and Thamud's rejection of Salih became intense, they intended to kill her so that they could take the water for themselves every day. It was said that all of them (the disbelievers of Thamud) conspired to kill the camel. Qatadah said that he was told that, "The designated killer of the camel approached them all, including women in their rooms and children, and found out that all of them agreed to kill her.'' This fact is apparent from the wording of the Ayat,



    (Then they denied him and they killed it. So their Lord destroyed them because of their sin, and made them equal in destruction!) ﴿91:14﴾, and,



    (And We sent the she-camel to Thamud as a clear sign, but they did her wrong.) ﴿17:59﴾ Allah said here,


    (So they killed the she-camel) Therefore, these Ayat stated that the entire tribe shared in agreeing to this crime, and Allah knows best.
     
  11. Muslimah

    Muslimah Active Member

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    [​IMG]


    With the name of ALLAH ( God Almighty ) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continuously Merciful


    Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

    Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament


    Recitation of Sura Fathiha by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia


    http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au



    &&&

    Firstly: It's not that only Muslims say there is contradiction in Bible ........when Chrsitians publish version of Bible , then they assure their readers that it's almost free of errors /contradiction as they edited the past mistakes those are found in other versions. Ask any Christian scholars.....are there contradiction in Bible ? Let us share his/her answer , ok ?

    Secondly: since centuries , Jews & Chsristians tried hard to find fault with Quran.....they failed. Do u know , Catholic Chuch appointed a devoted Chrisitan for this purpuse. After a long research on Quran, Bible & Science that person Dr. Maurice B ( author of Science , Quran and the Bible ) admitted that as a Christian he was shocked to find many errors in Bible but could not find any wrong in Quran. He wrote his famous book as a Christian ....not as a Muslim.

    To accept the truth , u don't have to be a Muslim. Just read Quran without any hatred , u will feel that it's from God.

    About ur question , i think u already got ur answer from other posts.
     

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