faith and works

[kenod]

The discussion of Paul's teaching has caused me to reflect again on the role of faith and works. Paul strongly emphasises "justification by faith", yet he does not ignore the role of right behaviour and good deeds. James, on the other hand, emphasises works, yet he does not discard faith.

I think a comparison of these two verses might give some insight into the role of faith and works in our salvation:

James 2:14 (NKJV)
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
Can faith save him?

James 2:14 (NIV)
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?
Can such faith save him?


​

Perhaps the relationship between faith and works is similar in some ways to the love I have for my wife. If I never do those things that I know please her and make her happy, what sort of love is that?

 

[Excaliburton]

But Paul insists that grace is free and does not require works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It sounds as though God would be upset if His children boasted of their obedience to Him. Or can you imagine parents who would be upset by children who boasted that they obeyed their parents. Wouldn't we love to worry about our children happily obeying us?

 

[cavalier]

Perhaps the relationship between faith and works is similar in some ways to the love I have for my wife. If I never do those things that I know please her and make her happy, what sort of love is that?

Yes, actually reminds me of something from American Pie 3. Don't remember exactly but something like, "Love is not just something that you feel, it's something that you do."

There was a similar thread to this on the Christianity board before, http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/faith-works-and-salvation-3255.html

On that thread, Q made what I believe to be an important point,

Works have nothing to do with salvation. Faith (by the Grace of Jesus) is the only thing that saves us. Works however, are a natural byproduct of our faith. (let me re-emphasize that, only a byproduct of our faith).

 

[Quahom1]

But Paul insists that grace is free and does not require works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It sounds as though God would be upset if His children boasted of their obedience to Him. Or can you imagine parents who would be upset by children who boasted that they obeyed their parents. Wouldn't we love to worry about our children happily obeying us?

Can't work to get faith. It is a gift by way of grace that we have faith at all. The Pharasees boasted of their "faith" by expounding upon their "works". To which Christ states, they already have their reward.

False piety is worse than no piety at all.

By its very nature, obeyance is not something to boast about (the prodigal son's brother comes to mind)...

I could see God becoming upset with someone who wears their obedience like some kind of badge of honor. That smacks of "self pride", which is itself disobedient to the laws of God.

v/r

Q

 

[kenod]

But Paul insists that grace is free and does not require works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It sounds as though God would be upset if His children boasted of their obedience to Him. Or can you imagine parents who would be upset by children who boasted that they obeyed their parents. Wouldn't we love to worry about our children happily obeying us?

I think that initially it is a difficult concept to grasp: salvation is a free gift, not something that we can earn.

Nevertheless, our actions will prove whether we have a genuine faith or not. If we say we are born of the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit is not evident in our behaviour, then it is time to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith or not.

Paul insists that a person professing to be a Christian must live according to a high standard:

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

​

As a parent, I would be upset if I gave my son a car as a gift, and then he began to boast that I gave him the car because of all the work he did for me.

 

[wil]

But Paul insists that grace is free and does not require works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It sounds as though God would be upset if His children boasted of their obedience to Him. Or can you imagine parents who would be upset by children who boasted that they obeyed their parents. Wouldn't we love to worry about our children happily obeying us?

Namaste Excaliburton, I've read your posts and it seems clear you have issues with Paul and his influence on Christianity. Instead of making assumptions, maybe I missed it, but can you provide a new thread with your exact take, in the perfect world how would Excaliburton make the changes needed to rectify the wrong he sees was created and continued?

 

[Dondi]

Here's my take on the "faith and works" issue:

There is division within the church on the issue of faith in regard to works when it comes to salvation. One faction work say that salvation is by faith without works, quoting such scripture as the following:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." - Romans 3:21, 27-28

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." - Romans 4:1-5

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." - Gal 3:2-3, 5-6

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Then there are those who point to James in support of faith by works:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:18-24

Is there anyway to reconcile these two points of view? I will attempt to do so. The first thing one should notice about these passages is that it uses the example of Abraham in both instances. Why is that significant? Because it will help distinguish what is meant by "works" in both passages. It is important to keep in mind that Abraham came before the Law of Moses. The reason Paul uses Abraham is because he is trying to make a point about what kind of faith we should have in relation to Abraham. Since Abraham came before the Law of Moses, so naturally the "works" of the Law is not binding to the faith of Abraham. So it is in this sense that we can say that faith is without works. Faith is apart of the strict obedience to the Law of Moses since the Law cannot save. The sacrificial rituals of blood of bulls and goats are inefficient to rid man of sin (Hebrews 10:4 - In fact Hebrews chapters 7-10 is good supplimental reading on this ). The Law is just the school master to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). So in this sense, faith apart from "works" (of the Law, that is) saves. But what of James? He uses the example of Abraham also, yet He speaks of faith by works. But what kind of works? The work wrought by grace. Ephesians 2:10 (the verse right after verses 8-9 earlier) says,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

These are works driven not by Law of Moses, but by love through the operation of the Holy Spirit. Remember what God promised in Ezekiel 36:26-27:

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

This is a promise that the Holy Spirit will come abide in us to cause us to obey God. His Law is written on the tablet of our hearts. And the operation is motivated by love:

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." - John 14:21

Jesus summed up the Law as this:

"...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

The works of love replaces the works of the law. Paul said in I Corinthians 13:1-3:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity [love], I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

Following the law is nothing if it is not done in love, and that love comes from God through Jesus Christ.

"...He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." - John 15:5

So it is in this sense that James says,

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - James 2:17

We are to be doers of the word, not hearers only. We are created for good works in Christ. Abraham demonstrated his works apart from the Law, being before the law, but in love for God when he offered up Isaac. He love Issac dearly, but showed that he was willing to give up Isaac for God, but was stopped by the angel.

Faith was fully realized in Abraham demonstrating his love for God over his love for Isaac. God honored this in turn by sparing Isaac. It is a love relationship between God and Abraham.

 

[seattlegal]

But Paul insists that grace is free and does not require works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It sounds as though God would be upset if His children boasted of their obedience to Him. Or can you imagine parents who would be upset by children who boasted that they obeyed their parents. Wouldn't we love to worry about our children happily obeying us?

Jesus's Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard at Matthew 20 might clear up any confusion surrounding this issue, IMHO.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

faith and works go hand in hand.
faith acknowledges god and always him to work through through your life for the glory of god as you give your life to him out of faith.
when god gives the opportunity, one should act on the ability out of love, so the works and the will of the lord are done as god calls you to act.
when one loves the lord, his will is done, not by law but by love.

 

[Caimanson]

faith and works go hand in hand.
faith acknowledges god and always him to work through through your life for the glory of god as you give your life to him out of faith.
when god gives the opportunity, one should act on the ability out of love, so the works and the will of the lord are done as god calls you to act.
when one loves the lord, his will is done, not by law but by love.

I don't disagree, but there is always a danger of abusing the works issue.
I come from a born-again brand of church, unconditional salvation through faith in Jesus Christ was acknowledged, and yet on the other hand they always seemed to be hammering works as the standard of a good commited christian.
The danger of works, is that it gives people a concrete way of measuring somebody's spirituality and commitment, it can be in other words a tool of manipulation and judgement. You know how humans are, always comparing with each other.

Also, though love always has a long way of making itself perfect, I think there are issues in people that obstruct its flow, sometimes it takes time to heal and make whole, sometimes it will never happen, at least not in this life. So I think it is always unsafe to judge somebody for lack of works.
As for myself, I began to experience peace when I started acknowledging to myself and to God that I am a man of little faith.
Who cares what others think, I am what I am.

 

[kenod]

Also, though love always has a long way of making itself perfect, I think there are issues in people that obstruct its flow, sometimes it takes time to heal and make whole, sometimes it will never happen, at least not in this life. So I think it is always unsafe to judge somebody for lack of works.
As for myself, I began to experience peace when I started acknowledging to myself and to God that I am a man of little faith.
Who cares what others think, I am what I am.

I think you and me and Paul feel much the same about it!

Philippians 312-14
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


​

 

[BlaznFattyz]

I don't disagree, but there is always a danger of abusing the works issue.

works are not to boast, judge, or put God in debt. works are to flow out of love.

 

[Dor]

Works do absolutely nothing toward salvation.

Our salvation is a gift of grace from God and is all based on our faith in him.
From that faith and him we will be blessed with the fruits of the spirit.
Gal [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5:22 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[/FONT]

From that come our works. The works we perform out of love, kindness, to raise people up, to edify God are done for the right reasons, if we do them to be saved, or to keep up with the Jones, or to build up and edify ourselves they are worthless.

 

[kenod]

On the whole I believe we should not judge what others do. The Christian life is a work in progress and we all grow and mature. There are times, however, when we are called upon to judge ... consider Paul's first letter to the Corinthians when he upbraided them for allowing a man to have his father's wife.

As Christians we feel impelled to do good and eschew evil … of course, the definition of “evil” is not always clear cut (eg, what tv programs to watch, alcohol, clothing, etc).

What trips me up most times is what I don't do ... going the extra mile or being quiet when I should speak up.

 

[Quahom1]

...What trips me up most times is what I don't do ... going the extra mile or being quiet when I should speak up.

good intentions...

 

[Dor]

On the whole I believe we should not judge what others do. The Christian life is a work in progress and we all grow and mature. There are times, however, when we are called upon to judge ... consider Paul's first letter to the Corinthians when he upbraided them for allowing a man to have his father's wife.

As Christians we feel impelled to do good and eschew evil … of course, the definition of “evil” is not always clear cut (eg, what tv programs to watch, alcohol, clothing, etc).

What trips me up most times is what I don't do ... going the extra mile or being quiet when I should speak up.

Yes Kenod we are told in the Bible to judge everything. In todays world that is not politically correct, so we keep our mouths shut too much.

 

[Dondi]

On the whole I believe we should not judge what others do. The Christian life is a work in progress and we all grow and mature. There are times, however, when we are called upon to judge ... consider Paul's first letter to the Corinthians when he upbraided them for allowing a man to have his father's wife.

As Christians we feel impelled to do good and eschew evil … of course, the definition of “evil” is not always clear cut (eg, what tv programs to watch, alcohol, clothing, etc).

What trips me up most times is what I don't do ... going the extra mile or being quiet when I should speak up.

Somethings are not clear cut, or at least the scriptures don't address certian issues specifically. But there are certain principles we can apply (i.e. WWJD?). But for the most part, I believe that we ought to be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. In matters of right and wrong, we will hear the voice of the Spirit when confronted with questionable things, but we should also be aware of we how we develop convictions, that is, recognizing that it is a process as a result of direct obedience to the will of God. We hone our senses to God's leading in our lives. The danger is when we allow ourselves to drift toward sin, for if we become complacent in our Christian life, our conscience can become seared like a hot iron.

 

[Quahom1]

Yes Kenod we are told in the Bible to judge everything. In todays world that is not politically correct, so we keep our mouths shut too much.

I think "discernment" is the term.

 

[kenod]

Somethings are not clear cut, or at least the scriptures don't address certian issues specifically. But there are certain principles we can apply (i.e. WWJD?). But for the most part, I believe that we ought to be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. In matters of right and wrong, we will hear the voice of the Spirit when confronted with questionable things, but we should also be aware of we how we develop convictions, that is, recognizing that it is a process as a result of direct obedience to the will of God. We hone our senses to God's leading in our lives. The danger is when we allow ourselves to drift toward sin, for if we become complacent in our Christian life, our conscience can become seared like a hot iron.

I agree with what you are saying here, but the obvious question always comes to mind: If we are all being led by the same Holy Spirit why are we not all heading in exactly the same direction.

I don't want to make specific issues about these points but there is not consistent agreement among Christians on many important subjects: eg Iraq, divorce, stem cells, ...

 

[cyberpi]

Faith requires work. It is not a state of the mind... it is work. Everything is recorded by work. Even changing the mind takes work. The difference between good works and bad works is what? It is matching the deed with the will of the neighbor you do the work for. Read through the parables that describe Faith. Jesus (pbuh) healed the people who came and asked to be healed. He praised the example of Faith the Centurion described in Capernaum over everything he saw in Israel.

Also, the top commandment was what... to Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind? The heart represents all that you do with the body because all of the body's energy is pumped through the heart via the blood. So it is Love God with all your works, choices, and thoughts. Faith then is just applying your works to someone else's choices, or having someone else apply their work to your choices. That way whether or not it is good can be a mutually decided issue. If you think about it, it is a matter of loving others as you wish them to love you, because most people I know like to have a say in how they are Loved. I've seen some people refer to that as the Platinum rule.

The Mustard seed parable is the Faith placed by God (swt)... the work is done per your choice. When you plant a seed it was God's design, but you are making the choice of where and how to plant it. You direct the power. The plant grows on its own and in this way God (swt) is doing work per your choice. In the same way people can place Faith in each other. God (swt) has asked us to do certain things... and clearly people have a choice. In doing it we place Faith in God (swt). It is NOT that God (swt) needs the work to be done for him... it is part of our lesson. God (swt) invented this world and the purpose of work is to record the history. Remember when Jesus (pbuh) said that some work (healing) required prayer?

Parable of the talents: I think the money represents knowledge or a skill of labor, since that is what it buys. God (swt) gives different knowledge or skills to different people. In trade, people share Faith in each other, for with the purchase others choose when and where your skill is used. The seeds given to each other propagate and multiply. So placing Faith is providing your seed for somebody else to choose how, when, and where to plant it. Knowledge and skills are duplicated. In English the word talent has found its place, while the definition of Faith misplaced. Where should Faith be placed? In the Faithful.

An opinion, guided or misguided... but I'm certain Jesus (pbuh) definition of Faith requires work. Every thought and every action here requires work, whether it is your will, my will, or HIS will.