Sacred Magic and the Sacraments

[China Cat Sunflower]

Question: From a Catholic perspective, what is the magical nature of the rituals and sacraments, and what is the practical application of redemption? Or, how do the mass and the sacraments work, and how does redemption work.

Anyone is welcome to comment, but I'm specifically interested in the traditional Catholic view (or Anglican if you understand the question).

Chris

 

[Faithfulservant]

Im not picking just offering an opinion... "Magic" is a bit of a dirty word biblically.. considering the three times I can see it mentioned in the bible it was bad. Magic is something performed by Satan.. not by God.

I am personally uncomfortable with your wording of it but thats just me and Im not a Catholic or Anglican.

 

[Quahom1]

Question: From a Catholic perspective, what is the magical nature of the rituals and sacraments, and what is the practical application of redemption? Or, how do the mass and the sacraments work, and how does redemption work.

Anyone is welcome to comment, but I'm specifically interested in the traditional Catholic view (or Anglican if you understand the question).

Chris

This is more that one deeply probing question, requiring in depth and thoughtful answers Chris. I will start with a "summation" of Sacraments and then you see if you want to go further with your questions.

Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace instituted by Christ for our sanctification. They are not required at all, as God can give grace to man without sign or ceremony, however if it is known that certain graces are to be conferred on men by means of external signs, then we are required to use them (not absolutely, but hypothetically, such as if we are to aquire a supernatural end, we should use appropriate supernatural means to that end).

The seven sacraments are: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Orders, and Matrimony.

Three of these are required to determine or produce (besides grace,) in the soul a character, i.e., an indelible spiritual mark by which some are consecrated as servants of God, some as soldiers, some as ministers. Since it is an indelible mark, the sacraments which impress a character cannot be received more than once.

Would you care for continuance?

v/r

Joshua

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Joshua,

Thank you for your kind reply. First, let me assure you of my genuine interest. And second, this isn't some kind of rhetorical setup. I don't know how to adequately phrase what I'm asking--it's a big subject I know. I'll try, though.

In the work of redemption, which I'm trying to understand the nature of, there is, it seems to me, a uniting of God's will with man's will. Certainly, to be effective, man's will is subjected to, or placed at the disposal of God's will, but it is an active exercise of the will nonetheless. It seems to me that the sacraments act in some way as an agency through which the two wills combine to effect the work of redemption. I'd like to understand how that works.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Im not picking just offering an opinion... "Magic" is a bit of a dirty word biblically.. considering the three times I can see it mentioned in the bible it was bad. Magic is something performed by Satan.. not by God.

I am personally uncomfortable with your wording of it but thats just me and Im not a Catholic or Anglican.

Thank you for your comment. I understand what you're saying, and I don't want to argue semantics. I also don't want to take the posture of teacher on this because I'm asking a question about something I don't really understand. I'm asking for others to teach me.

I am often wrong, but it seems to me that the very act of God creating ex-nihilo is definitively magical. Creating something from nothing. Therefore, the results of the action of the divine will seeking to unite with our will to effect redemption is of a magical nature in the sacred sense.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

...In the work of redemption, which I'm trying to understand the nature of, there is, it seems to me, a uniting of God's will with man's will. Certainly, to be effective, man's will is subjected to, or placed at the disposal of God's will, but it is an active exercise of the will nonetheless. It seems to me that the sacraments act in some way as an agency through which the two wills combine to effect the work of redemption. I'd like to understand how that works.

Chris

I can tell you a bit about my story...and my "Journey" through the sacraments I've had, or experienced...but that is only one man's perspective, and not necessarily the Church's perview...and then I can tell you what is supposed to be.

v/r

Joshua

oh, what you call "magic" isn't...but it is wonderful to perceive the "awe and mystery".

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I can tell you a bit about my story...and my "Journey" through the sacraments I've had, or experienced...but that is only one man's perspective, and not necessarily the Church's perview...and then I can tell you what is supposed to be.

v/r

Joshua

oh, what you call "magic" isn't...but it is wonderful to perceive the "awe and mystery".

I'm always most interested in personal experience as the practical application of the theoretical. Perhaps I should say that the "awe and mystery " of it all seems magical from my perspective. Again, I'm not interested in pressing an argument based on semantics. So, please tell me of your personal experience.

Oh, thanks for the link to the Catholic encyclopedia. I was unfamiliar with the term "extreme unction."

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

I'm always most interested in personal experience as the practical application of the theoretical. Perhaps I should say that the "awe and mystery " of it all seems magical from my perspective. Again, I'm not interested in pressing an argument based on semantics. So, please tell me of your personal experience.

Oh, thanks for the link to the Catholic encyclopedia. I was unfamiliar with the term "extreme unction."

Chris

Now that you have the "official" stuff available to you for comparrison, where would you like to begin?

edit: glad you took advantage of the links.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Now that you have the "official" stuff available to you for comparrison, where would you like to begin?

edit: glad you took advantage of the links.

I'm trying to find a point from which to"start small." If you're ammenable, could we start with transubstantiation? What is the import of transubstantiation? When the officiant pronounces the invocation, and the host and eucarist transforms into the blood and body of Christ, and the recipient eats and drinks, what does that do?

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

I'm trying to find a point from which to"start small." If you're ammenable, could we start with transubstantiation? What is the import of transubstantiation? When the officiant pronounces the invocation, and the host and eucarist transforms into the blood and body of Christ, and the recipient eats and drinks, what does that do?

Chris

How about Baptism, Catholic style?...

 

[Dondi]

I am often wrong, but it seems to me that the very act of God creating ex-nihilo is definitively magical. Creating something from nothing. Therefore, the results of the action of the divine will seeking to unite with our will to effect redemption is of a magical nature in the sacred sense.

I believe in a transcedent and imminent God. While the traditional view is that God created the universe ex-nihilo, I'm not so sure that He created it out of nothing. If God is as big as we are taught, that is bigger than the known universe, I'm almost willing to believe that He created the physical universe out of Himself. Now I don't think I'm being being pantheistic (the belief that all is God..the rocks, the trees, the birds in the air, or that the universe is God), but I do think it leaves room for a panentheistic view (that God is the driving force of the universe and that the universe is contained in Him, thus His omniscience). Whatever power God had in creating the universe had to come from Himself. Keeping in the physical laws that were established in the beginning, the spark that ignited the Big Bang was God's intrusion into the physical universe. That's not necessarily a "magical" thing, but an unknown phenomenom.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

How about Baptism, Catholic style?...

O.K.

Chris

 

[Thomas]

Hi Dondi -

I really don't want to derail Joshua and Chris' discussion here, so I have responded to your comment in a new thread - 'creatio ex nihilo'.

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

O.K.

Chris

According to Catholic doctrine, baptism (to imerse and be cleansed) in water is the first sacrament (the doorway to the church). It is a Christ ordained requirement that all be baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit. There are no exceptions. Even stillborns are baptized. If one dies in original sin (without comitting any sin themselves), they must still be baptized. This is the responsibility of the care takers of that person. It is a commitment to God that people show on behalf of the stricken or the incapable, that they are acting in accordance with Christ's decree.

There are substitutes to baptism in water, but rarely used. One is the baptsim of desire (the pennatent wishes to be baptised, but can not be due to circumstances beyond their control). The other is the baptism of blood (the pennatent gives up their life for Christ, thereby is washed in the blood of Christ).

Baptism does not have to be before a congregation (only before the eyes of God). A pennatent man can baptize his child in a river or in the kitchen sink under certain circumstances, and it is acceptable to the church and to God. Of course the church wishes re-affirmation at a more convenient date, if possible.

Baptism is not only for the "innocent", but for those who wish to be as well. It is a promise/acceptance to live in the ways of Christ, or to raise one in the ways of Christ. The old natural life is whisked away by the waters, and the new life for Christ is fresh and clean. The new potential is unfettered by old baggage.

Baptism sets the stage for the next chapter.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Sorry Joshua. When it rains it pours, and I've been busy as heck the last couple of days. I did want to wait to post until I'd had time to read the rather lengthy entry on Baptism in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I found it interesting and educational...and long.

So, I think I understand about baptism. You're definately lost if you aren't baptised. Not only are you lost, but you're going to hell. But baptism, properly applied, forgives your part in original sin, and forgives all your personal sins pre-baptism. So at that moment you're completely blameless, and you've signed on with Jesus to get home to heaven, the kingdom, and the new earth, and most of all to behold, and be beheld by God. So at that point, if you died the following Tuesday, you would only have to account at the Judgement for the sins you committed in the interim. Is that close?

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

Sorry Joshua. When it rains it pours, and I've been busy as heck the last couple of days. I did want to wait to post until I'd had time to read the rather lengthy entry on Baptism in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I found it interesting and educational...and long.

So, I think I understand about baptism. You're definately lost if you aren't baptised. Not only are you lost, but you're going to hell. But baptism, properly applied, forgives your part in original sin, and forgives all your personal sins pre-baptism. So at that moment you're completely blameless, and you've signed on with Jesus to get home to heaven, the kingdom, and the new earth, and most of all to behold, and be beheld by God. So at that point, if you died the following Tuesday, you would only have to account at the Judgement for the sins you committed in the interim. Is that close?

Chris

Lol, don't worry about it...I'm not gonna forget my faith for a few more decades (I'm hoping).

One must account for all their sins, regardless of when they were comitted. One does not need to fear the "book of life" being opened and their name not being in it. So instead of judgement for eternal life, or eternal death, they are judged to determine the "rewards" stored up for them in heaven. See, everytime we deliberately do wrong, that is just another lost investment in ourselves and others. Bad for business if compared to an economic model.

Now as far and those not being baptized with water, going to hell...that is where the church and me don't see eye to eye. I also think the church is of two minds on this issue as well, since in the introduction to the Sacraments we are told by the Church that no sacrament is required because God can bestow grace upon whomever He chooses to.

What the church is saying is, just in case, we decree that it is better to err on the side of caution, so all shall be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as an outward expression of faith, and as a supernatural expression to show willingness to receive inside the supernatural end (which is grace).

Now I do agree with the church that at the moment one is baptized, they are washed clean and blameless, and God the Father can look upon the baptized and see no blemish or sin. Why? because all that was before is washed away from His sight.

However do not forget, there are three types of baptism that accomplish the exact same thing. By water being the main form, but by desire and/or by blood also apply, and accomplish the same end.

v/r

Joshua

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Joshua,

If I remember right, aren't you Anglican? Is there a resource like the Catholic Encyclopedia that reflects the Anglican, or Episcopal take on the sacraments? Or are there any real doctrinal differences?

On to confirmation then?

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

Joshua,

If I remember right, aren't you Anglican? Is there a resource like the Catholic Encyclopedia that reflects the Anglican, or Episcopal take on the sacraments? Or are there any real doctrinal differences?

On to confirmation then?

Chris

lol, Celtic Catholic. But here is a link to the Anglican take on the sacraments. Basically the same as the church of Rome and to a great extent, Eastern Orthodox.

v/r

Joshua

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anglican_sacraments

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

A Celtic Catholic, eh? Interesting! Are you into the Grail mysteries and stuff like that? What is the significance of adopting or rejecting the filloque?

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

Joshua,

If I remember right, aren't you Anglican? Is there a resource like the Catholic Encyclopedia that reflects the Anglican, or Episcopal take on the sacraments? Or are there any real doctrinal differences?

On to confirmation then?

Chris

Perhaps this website will help. I think that one distinguishing thing about Episcopalians is that we don't tend to nail each other down on much of doctrine. There is doctrine and these are the words. We each understand them individually as we will, we help and support each other in our understanding, and individually and together we grow into deeper understanding. Sorry if that's too nebulous but it's really the best I can do.

catechism: sacraments

The Sacraments


Q: What are the sacraments?
A: The sacraments are outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace, given by Christ as sure and certain means by which we receive that grace.


Q: What is grace?
A: Grace is God's favor toward us, unearned and undeserved; by grace God forgives our sins, enlightens our minds, stirs our hearts, and strengthens our wills.


Q: What are the two great sacraments of the Gospel?
A: The two great sacraments given by Christ to his Church are Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist.


luna