The Bab

Discussion in 'Baha'i' started by Postmaster, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    Shoghi Effendi explained that the Bible even though it may have had many authors and many translations and many slips of the pen is "protected by God". In the same sense the Qur'an is praised for being the most pure after time up until the time of Baha`u'llah.

    However, the Qur'an IS an oral tradition, it has been redacted, it has had to deal with changes in the alphabet (there were no vowel diacriticals at the time of Umar's redaction, they were added later and there is no way to tell if they were all added correctly). We have no original pages of any of Muhammad's recitations.

    In the case of the Bab and Baha`u'llah, we do.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    The bab came before bahaullah. And not the other way around. it is logical therefore to consider the Bab for the discussion on Bahaullah, but not Bahaullah for the discusison on the Bab.

    Just as to establish the veracity of Imam Ali, we refer to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and not the other way around.

    But in either case, it is important that both parties be consistent about what is being said - i.e., Imam Ali say the same thing about the Prophet what the prophet said about himself.

    Since the Bab came before Bahaullah, he should be able to justify his position independently. Sure Bahaullah's viewpoint is important and we should consider it just as we consider the words of Imam Ali about the Holy Prophet (pbuh). But the Holy Prophet does not have to "lean" on Imam Ali to establish his prophethood.

    Regards,
     
  3. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    I insist, Imran. Yes or No. I answered you as you asked me too. You simply parroted me. So childlike. Yes or No. It is so simple.

    Of course, we call what you are doing dissimulation. Changing or modifying the answer to avoid having to respond in the way requested. Remember, Imran, I am an American. We are raised on politicians here that would make you look like an amateur. We also have learned when a person avoids a simple question, it is apparent what the answer would be. The answer would be something that would embarrass them and they couldn't justify outside of their own bigoted group.

    I will mark you down as a YES.

    Would you like to support your YES answer with facts and reason. I am so confused, Imran. So confused. You claim to believe the words of the Quran, but support murder and torture on a group of people that are trying to simply worship in their own way.

    Mick
     
  4. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    Really does not matter how the Quran reached us. The fact that it is there despite "lack of oral pages" is testimony to how well Allah has fulfilled His promise of protecting the Quran. Have you seen the verse in Quran which talks about the protection of Quran?

    Even Bab, Bahaullah and Shoghi and Abbas Effendi have not raised any questions about the Quran, so your opinion seems to be very personal - which is fine except that it is not consistent with the most widely accepted truth about the Quran. Besides your knowledge about the history of the Quran seems woefully inadequate. You can read about the Quran and how it reached us if it interests you, in the introduction of Haj Mirza Mahdi Pooya's exegesis of the Quran. It is simple, yet comprehensive.

    But this is not really about the Quran. it is about the words of the Bab in his books.

    Regards,
     
  5. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    I never used the term "transmigration" until you did.

    Let me tell a tale from Mr. H. M. Balyuzi's book:
    "It was noised abroad that the Governor, by
    the request of the divines, had ordered that the people of
    Shiraz, of all classes, should gather in the Masjid-i-Vakil,
    as the Siyyid-i-Báb was going to renounce His claim. I too
    went to the mosque to find a place near [the pulpit] so that 97
    I might hear well all that He had to say. From the morning
    onwards, people, group by group, thronged the mosque.
    Three hours before sunset there was such a press of people
    in the mosque that the cloisters and the courtyard and the
    roofs, even the minarets, were fully crowded. The Governor,
    the divines, the merchants and the notables were sitting
    in the cloisters, near the stone pulpit. (This is a pulpit
    carved out of one piece of marble. It has fourteen steps.)
    I was also sitting near it. Voices were heard in the courtyard,
    saying: 'He is coming.' He came through the gate, accompanied
    by ten footmen and 'Abdu'l-Hamid Khan-i-Darughih
    [chief of police], and approached the pulpit. He had His
    turban on and an 'aba on His shoulders. He displayed such
    power and dignity and His bearing was so sublime that I
    cannot describe it adequately. That vast gathering seemed
    as naught to Him. He paid no heed to that assemblage of
    the people. He addressed Husayn Khan and the divines:
    'What is your intention in asking Me to come here?' They
    answered: 'The intention is that you should ascend this
    pulpit and repudiate your false claim so that this commotion
    and unrest will subside.' He said nothing and went up to the
    third step of the pulpit. Shaykh Husayn, the Tyrant, said
    with utmost vehemence: 'Go to the top of the pulpit so
    that all may see and hear you.' The Báb ascended the pulpit
    and sat down at the top. All of a sudden, silence fell upon
    that assemblage. It seemed as if there was not a soul in the
    mosque. The whole concourse of people strained their ears.
    He began to recite at the start a homily in Arabic on Divine
    Unity. It was delivered with utmost eloquence, with
    majesty and power. It lasted about half an hour, and the
    concourse of people, high and low, learned and illiterate
    alike, listened attentively and were fascinated. The people's
    silence infuriated Shaykh Husayn, who turned to the Governor
    and said: 'Did you bring this Siyyid here, into the presence
    of all these people, to prove His Cause, or did you 98
    bring Him to recant and renounce His false claim? He will
    soon with these words Will over all these people to His side.
    Tell Him to say what He has to say. What are all these idle
    tales?' Husayn Khan, the Sahib-Ikhtiyar, told the Bab:
    'O Siyyid! say what you have been told to say. What is this
    idle chatter?' The Báb was silent for a moment and then He
    addressed the crowd: 'O people! Know this well that I
    speak what My Grandfather, the Messenger of God, spoke
    twelve hundred and sixty years ago, and I do not speak
    what My Grandfather did not. "What Muhammad made
    lawful remains lawful unto the Day of Resurrection and what
    He forbade remains forbidden unto the Day of Resurrection",[1]
    and according to the Tradition that has come down
    from the Imams, "Whenever the Qá'im arises that will be
    the Day of Resurrection".'
    The Báb, having spoken those
    words, descended from the pulpit. Some of the people,
    who had been inimical and hostile, that day foreswore their
    antagonism. But when the Báb came face to face with
    Shaykh Husayn, that enemy raised his walking-stick to
    strike Him. The late Mirza Abu'l-Hasan Khan, the
    Mushiru'l-Mulk,[2] who was then a young man, brought
    forward his shoulder to ward off the attack, and it was his
    shoulder that was hit.""
    [1 The Báb was quoting a Muslim Tradition.]
    [2 He and his father, Mirza Muhammad-'Ali, the first Mushiru'l-Mulk, were the Viziers of Fars, in succession, over a period of forty years.]
    (H.M. Balyuzi, The Bab - The Herald of the Day of Days, p. 96)
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    And you'll huff and you'll puff, til you blow my house down? The faith is not made of straw Imran. Don't bust a lung.
     
  7. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    I told you what you told me. You gave me the same answer what I expected. I am yet to see a Bahai who condemns the Israelites for their occupation of Palestine, the murder of innocents. And you tell me that it will be resolved through prayer! Whose side are you on?

    Have I told you anything wrong? Inshallah if Allah wills, the problem will be solved through prayer.

    If you believe that my reply was child-like, please realise that I just gave you the answer that Islam teaches us and it was your answer as well - prayers can move mountains. So lets all pray that the situation works out to that by which Allah will be satisfied and one which is in the best interest of all.

    Regards,
     
  8. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    I apologise. I got the word wrong. The term you used is Transfiguration. So can you now produce some proof from the Bab that he was the transfiguration thingy of the Mahdi?

    From a tradition point of view, the Bab is correct though not fully. The Day of Resurrection will be preceeded by the rule of the Qaem - a rule in which justice and peace will prevail and in one which no person will be wronged. Going by even the Bahai interpretation of the Day of Judgement - it still does not fit Bab and Bahaullah for as per the Bahais they were the most persecuted in their times and even today their followers are the most harrased in the word - ask me, I am questioned again and again about the Bahais in Iran. So when the leaders themselves complained about oppression and injustice and yet claimed that their advent caused the coming of the Day of Judgement in which no person will be wronged, then what should one make of it.

    Regards,
     
  9. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    Again, you are simply waffling. A simple YES or NO was all that was asked for. Oh, that's right I gave you a YES. I guess this makes it a resounding YES, then!

    I would share with you my personal feelings concerning the atrocities in Israel. I am saddened daily when I see people suffering there and personally grieve with those that have lost loved ones. Do you want my personal feelings? You asked me for the view of the Baha'i Faith. I gave you that. The Baha'i Faith doesn't "take sides". No more than Islam could. That is why it is ludicrous. You don't even have a united thought within the Islamic religion. You guys kill each other, in the name of God/Allah.

    Let me share a picture of some of the Martyrs of the Baha'i Faith. They look to be a threatening lot. I can see why they would "cut the head" off of the one. Do you agree? Maybe that will give you the courage to admit that you support these atrocities. I decided I couldn't, because of human decency upload the pictures to this site. But I link you to them. If you scroll down to the 14th picture of the babies, you will be able to look at them in all their glory.

    Médiathèque baha'ie: PERSECUTION DES BAHA'IS EN IRAN: GALERIE DE PHOTOS



    I will also include a couple of pictures that show the officials of Iran and representatives of the Islamic community in Shiraz joyfully destroying Baha'i structures. I am sure you will enjoy these as well. Hey, maybe you'll see some of your friends.

    To anybody that is reading this post, I hope you are not offended by the pictures. You know what, actually, I hope you are. I am. For anybody that is wondering why the Baha'is can't let this issue go, here are some of the examples.

    Mick
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 22, 2007
  10. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    No, actually the Baha'is are respected and looked up to in most of the world as leaders as we enter the Kingdom on Earth as promised in all the religions. It is only in your world that they are the most harrassed.

    They should raise their hands in praise and rejoice, for God's promised time has come. Coming, in English, means, "The temporal property of becoming nearer in time." The beginning has arrived and we see people becoming aware of evil around them and we see less tolerance by the people of acts of injustice. We are seeing a world that is learning how to get along when 150 years ago, most people didn't know what was happening in the next county, what more the next country or the next continent. It is happening as promised and as it slowly, and I emphasize slowly, unfolds, I can see the tears of relief flooding across the faces of the righteous.

    Mick
     
  11. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    Imran: "I apologise. I got the word wrong. The term you used is Transfiguration. So can you now produce some proof from the Bab that he was the transfiguration thingy of the Mahdi?"

    I suggest you look up 'transfiguration' before you attempt to discuss it.

    Scott
     
  12. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    I am going to suggest that we only respond to Imran with a request for his stand on the persecution of Baha`i's in Iran until he gives it.

    As it is he uses this board's dialogue to create more anti-Bahai propaganda on his own website.

    Let's not feed the troll anymore.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  13. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    Propaganda? You call the words of the Bab propaganda?

    Regards,
     
  14. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    If Bahais are respected, then good for them.

    God's time is come? People are becoming more tolerant of injustice? Really? I dont think so. Show me one community which is not complaining of injustice. You seem to either blind or deluding yourself - look around you globally -

    We have seen 2 world wars - destruction in Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Vietnam, India, Israel, Pakistan, Tibet, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Syria, Africa - millions killed or rendered homeless - and at the end of the day - it is aggression and injustice which is being done on one party or the other.

    Take a look at these pictures - http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/IsraeliAggression.html

    They are not censored. So apologies for that. Every new day raises hope or despair for there is a new crime or atrocity hurled upon the people of this world. The pics in the link above are a very small example of that. (Incidentally, I have yet to see any official Bahai communication ever being raised against the Israel - Israel is always right for the Bahais despite all the nonsense it does - all hidden under the garb of - we are politically neutral.)

    So be neutral and the world will be neutral with you. Dont complain about Iran. You are very very selective about where and how you want to raise your voice.

    Anyways, if God's time has come - then I dont want this God for His time is a terrible time to be in. Is the Bab really the Mahdi whose advent will usher in an era of peace and security? This is peace and security? Forget about the Bab, more than 150 years have passed fom Bahaullah - we are yet to see the peace. For all that it is worth, the Bahais seem to be the biggest recipient of the injustice.

    Read about the oppression upon Bani Israel BEFORE the advent of Moses who was their Messiah. Not AFTER Moses came and delivered them from the Pharoah. And Moses delivered them in this lifetime and not after. Not 150 years after he came and was gone.

    So please, please dont lecture me about taking sides and whether God's time has come.

    Please.

    Regards,
     
  15. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    Let's not feed the troll.
     
  16. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    We still see human atrocities take place. He is lieing?
     
  17. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    Imran

    YES or NO?
     
  18. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    It's not on a switch, it's a process--that we have to complete. God provides the plan and the motivation, we provide the grunt labor.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  19. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    It's a process, as it has always been. When Moses delivered the Ten Commandants, everybody didn't instantly change their ways. Today, though, the whole world is aware of these Commandants and most Judicial systems are base on them. When Christ told us to learn to forgive each other, people didn't instantly become forgiving. Today, though, the world is aware of Christ's mandate of forgiveness and many, dare I say most, try to follow it.

    Peace will prevail on earth. God has chosen that. There are hundreds of examples that could be cited of the people of the world expecting this or even demanding this. Are their atrocities. Yes, enough to make our hearts bleed with pain. Remember, man has free will. The only answer is a spiritual answer. Each heart that quickens with the love of God will be one less that is willing to cause pain for others.

    Mick
     
  20. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    But when someone comes to establish peace on earth and then atrocites continue to occur as they did previously, whats the point? Is it just to say that peace will eventually be established, if so even the bible said that was going to be the case.
     

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