The Bab

Discussion in 'Baha'i' started by Postmaster, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    For Baha'is life after death is emerging to a new plane(s) of existence or "world of God" and is as different from this world as this world is different from the world of the womb.

    Here is a pretty fair selection of the Baha'i Writings on life after death:

    http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=warwick_life_soul

    - Art
     
  2. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    What you quoted above could be Gods wish, aim and will. But reincarnation is regarded very seriously by a large part of the worlds population. Would it be sinfull to recognise what they consider important? Or would it be a sinfull in supressing such idea? I would say both but the latter is more sinful. Or do billions of people have a wrong view of the afterlife, which in my view is tragic. We should be firm but aloof just as God is with us.
     
  3. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    On reincarnation:

    Hello my good friend Postmaster!

    Well just so you know that Baha'is do not accept reincarnation that will have to suffice for now...

    Here is a reference:

    'The Bahá'í view of 'reincarnation' is essentially different from the Hindu conception. The Bahá'ís believe in the return of the attributes and qualities, but maintain that the essence or the reality of things cannot be made to return. Every being keeps its own individuality, but some of his qualities can be transmitted. The doctrine of metempsychosis upheld by the Hindus is fallacious.'

    - Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Baha'i Faith

    (From a letter to an individual believer, March 27, 1938)

    Sincerely,

    - Art
     
  4. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    When the Baha`i writings clearly say something it can't be right to soft-pedal it, just to gain converts who when they learned what was being hidden from them would simply drop out anyway.

    Besides the fastest growing Baha`i population is India where belief in reincarnation is widely accepted. The growth rate has been over 100,000 each year to the point there are 2,000,000 Indian Baha`i's right now.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  5. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    Like I pointed out such a system of rebirth on earth again after already living a previous life and only a very limited part of your remaining could be a system which happens, science can't explain it its a mystical one at the moment. But one of which lacks a certain type love, personally I can't imagine never seeing my family or friends again or even losing my sense of self. Maybe it's this desire I have that will grant me what I want.
     
  6. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    As I asked you in message #78, are you suggesting that God simply is giving us a choice in what comes next? Such as...

    when you die you may choose one of the following:

    1. Go to Heaven
    2. Go to Nirvana
    3. Continue the spiritual journey we are on.
    4. Reincarnate
    5. Nothing
    6. (per your above suggestion) Do what you may desire.

    What an unusual concept of God's Directions. You are suggesting that God just wants us to be comfortable so we can simply pick and choose whatever we want when it comes to His laws and commandants.

    Simply put, what you want or can conceive may have little meaning when compared to the Word of God. Same goes for me. It is our duty to search for the Truths of God and then to incorporate them into our lives and belief system. Baha'is do not suggest that all the Religions incorporate all truth. That can confuse the issue if people perceive this. We are saying that all the Religions have a basis of truth, and within the belief system, one may find Truths of God. Simply because millions of people conceive reincarnation as a truth does not make it a Truth of God.

    We use a standard that is simple and I offer it to you, Postmaster.

    "If it is logical, then it is of God. If it is illogical, then it is of man."

    As I read your statements and questions, I would suggest that if you applied this standard to many of them before you posted, many of your posts simply wouldn't have been made.

    warmly,

    Mick
     
  7. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    But I don’t want to suppress someone else’s views, especially if they are important and not causing anyone else harm.
     
  8. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    I agree with you with qualifications, but that isn't answering the question I asked you? In fact, you have went to a totally different topic. The question I was asking you concerned what happens after our body dies and I repeated what it seemed you were saying, twice. I then asked you if that was what you were trying to get across. Sometimes I find your posts to be a little spiraling and difficult for me to follow. I am only asking here for clarification. Are you suggesting that at the time of death we have a choice, similar to the one I described in the above post?

    Forever wondering,

    Mick
     
  9. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    My replies can go off course if I don’t understand your question so sorry.

    Yeah I think we do have a choice of what the out come of our life will be. And I think sometimes we might not. I think ancestral past (heritage), virtue, ambitions could all be factors of what the outcome of someone’s life could be in the after life. I do think its a very just system though. Who knows!
     
  10. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    I don't believe we would have individual souls if we were going to lose our sense of self. I do think our perception of everything will change-including our perception of self. Yes, I do believe we will be in the presence of our loved ones.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  11. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    There's one thing I just can't accept about the afterlife in the Baha'i view of it and that’s this idea of spiritual progression. I don't know if it’s a case of what I have been told since I was a child and it’s something I've grown to be comfortable with but I believe in heaven (paradise) the one stop place after death. I don't like the idea of multiple heavens or realms or carrying on with some spiritual growth. I could be wrong.

    In my Christian orthodoxy faith we have children as young as 12 who were granted saint hood and the circumstances as to how they get it is remarkable. Is there such thing as spiritual progression? Or is it simply all about acceptance. Sometimes I think that we live in an age of limited awareness of morality. The ancients didn't have technology to occupy there minds, they probably thought about theology alot more then we do and there conclusions might have seeped into mysticism. Ideas we can’t grasp especially in a culture where we need everything to be solid in fact.
     
  12. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Badi

    In my Christian orthodoxy faith we have children as young as 12 who were granted saint hood and the circumstances as to how they get it is remarkable.

    My reply:

    In Baha'i Faith there was a youth named Badi who personally delivered a Tablet of Baha'u'llah to the Shah. He was seventeen years of age when he did this... After presented the Tablet to the Shah he was tortured and executed....

    There's a photo of him extant showing him in chains:

    http://bci.org/reno/images/badi2.jpg

    His story can be found at

    http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=momen_encyclopedia_badi_khurasani

    Badi is regarded as a martyr but there were many others...

    - Art
     
  13. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    Hi:
    I am back - there was a problem which got sorted out so the web site is back and running.

    I read some of the threads of this topic and while it has been silent for some time, I would like to put forth this question:

    While the Judiac, Christian and Islamic viewpoints about life after death are very clear - there is a physical resurrection with a real heaven and hell, the Bahai Faith denies physical resurrection.

    If I limit myself to Islam (for 2 reasons, it is the last of the divine religions before the Bahai Faith and also because I understand it best), how does one reconcile the vast collection of verses and traditions to the Bahai Viewpoint?

    Regards,
     
  14. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    I'll answer your questions with an other question. How pointless did the carriage become after the invention of the car? And do you think at the time of the carriage anyone thought there was a much better transportation invention coming along? Or would they have laughed at the idea?

    How beneficial has the car been to civilisation. Being able to transport products, goods, people so fast, I wonder how backwards we would have been without the car.

    And before we start talking about how were destroying the earth with global warming, I just want to point out that everything carries side effects, even religion, medicine, politics, just living. It's only progress when the good out weighs the bad. Human nature has always been having to rectify side effects.
     
  15. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    That's not a bad question. You know my opinion of traditions إشاعة دفتر (Kitab`i Hearsay) why not limit ourselves to the verses. Be aware that lots of Christians do NOT believe in one mass day of resurrection. And Judaic practices are also widely varying. Generally speaking Baha`i's believe that there have been many "Resurrection Days" in the past and there will be more in the future. The Manifestation of God comes and His coming is the day of rebirth when all creation is made new. He judges the quick and the dead, in a spiritual sense, and it is His words and His teachings which provide the energy for the new creation. Thus the "Ressurection Day" is a metaphoric presentation of the choice that faces all those who live in the advent of a New Revelation.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  16. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    Traditions are important to understand the verses. Without them, a person can interpret and / or misinterpret the verses as he likes.

    I can give you the example of Namaz - The Quran claims that every knowledge is encompassed in it. Yet it is not clear about 2 units of dawn prayers, 4 units of noon prayer and so on till one read the traditions narrated about the actions of the prophet.

    Secondly, perhaps even a better example - the Bahais believe in the succession of Imam Ali after the Prophet of Islam - yet the name of Ali is not mentioned in the Quran - there are verses in the Quran whose interpretation is explained in the traditions of the prophet that Imam Ali succeeded the Prophet of Islam.

    Sure, if any tradition is not acceptable to you on the topic, you may dismiss it outlining the reasons for the same. Sure, if you can provide any tradition countering the point I have made, we can consider it. Lastly, our most recent discussion revolved around a tradition which was brought forth by yourself. So its not really that you dont accept traditions.

    Anyway, we will begin with the verses. Traditions will only support the viewpoint which is being considered. There are probably more than 10,000 (a very conservative figure) of traditions about the Day of Judgement - surely not all of them will be heresay.

    Regards,
     
  17. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    Okay verses!

    "XXVIII. Happy is the man who will arise to serve My Cause, and glorify My beauteous Name. Take hold of My Book with the power of My might, and cleave tenaciously to whatsoever commandment thy Lord, the Ordainer, the All-Wise, hath prescribed therein. Behold, O Muhammad, how the sayings and doings of the followers of Shi'ih Islam have dulled the joy and fervor of its early days, and tarnished the pristine brilliancy of its light. In its primitive days, whilst they still adhered to the precepts associated with the name of their Prophet, the Lord of mankind, their career was marked by an unbroken chain of victories and triumphs. As they gradually strayed from the path of their Ideal Leader and Master, as they turned away from the Light of God and corrupted the principle of His Divine unity, and as they increasingly centered their attention upon them who were only the revealers of the potency of His Word, their power was turned into weakness, their glory into shame, their courage into fear. Thou dost witness to what a pass they have come. Behold, how they have joined partners with Him Who is the Focal-Point of Divine unity. Behold how their evil doings have hindered them from recognizing, in the Day of Resurrection, the Word of Truth, exalted be His glory. We cherish the hope that this people will henceforth shield themselves from vain hopes and idle fancies, and will attain to a true understanding of the meaning of Divine unity."
    (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 69)

    "This is the Day wherein the earth hath told out her tidings and hath laid bare her treasures; when the oceans have brought forth their pearls and the divine Lote-Tree its fruit; when the Sun hath shed its radiance and the Moons have diffused their lights, and the Heavens have revealed their stars, and the Hour its signs, and the Resurrection its dreadful majesty; when the pens have unloosed their outpourings and the spirits have laid bare their mysteries."
    (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 107)

    "Thou hast asked regarding the subject of the return. Know thou that the end is like unto the beginning. Even as thou dost consider the beginning, similarly shouldst thou consider the end, and be of them that truly perceive. Nay, rather consider the beginning as the end itself, and so conversely, that thou mayest acquire a clear perception. Know thou moreover that every created thing is continually brought forth and returned at the bidding of thy Lord, the God of power and might.
    As to the Return, as God hath purposed in His sacred and exalted Tablets wherein He hath made this theme known unto His servants; by this is meant the return of all created things in the Day of Resurrection, and this is indeed the essence of the Return as thou hast witnessed in God's own days and thou art of them that testify to this truth.
    Verily God is fully capable of causing all names to appear in one name, and all souls in one soul. Surely powerful and mighty is He. And this Return is realized at His behest in whatever form He willeth. Indeed He is the One Who doeth and ordaineth all things. Moreover, thou shouldst not perceive the fulfilment of the Return and the Resurrection 184 save in the Word of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. For instance, were He to take a handful of earth and declare it to be the One Whom ye have been following in the past, it would undoubtedly be just and true, even as His real Person, and to none is given the right to question His authority. He doeth what He willeth and ordaineth whatsoever He pleaseth. Moreover, in this station take thou heed not to turn thy gaze unto limitations and allusions, but rather unto that whereby the Revelation itself hath been fulfilled and be of them that are discerning. Thus do We explain for thee in a lucid and explicit language that thou mayest comprehend that which thou didst seek from thine ancient Lord.
    Consider thou the Day of Resurrection. Were God to pronounce the lowliest of creatures among the faithful to be the First One to believe in the Bayan, thou shouldst have no misgivings about it and must be of them that truly believe. In this station look not upon human limitations and names but rather upon that whereby the rank of the First One to believe is vindicated, which is faith in God, and recognition of His Being and assurance in the fulfilment of His irresistible and binding command."
    (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)

    "I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: 'Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayan in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee."
    (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 7)

    "EXTRACTS FROM A TABLET CONTAINING WORDS ADDRESSED TO THE SHERIF OF MECCA
    O SHERIF!... All thy life thou hast accorded worship unto Us, but when We manifested Ourself unto thee, thou didst desist from bearing witness unto Our Remembrance, and from affirming that He is indeed the Most Exalted, the Sovereign Truth, the All-Glorious. Thus hath Thy Lord put thee to proof in the Day of Resurrection. Verily He is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."
    (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 29)

    "DO men imagine that We are far distant from the people of the world? Nay, the day We cause them to be assailed 47 by the pangs of death [1] they shall, upon the plain of Resurrection, behold how the Lord of Mercy and His Remembrance were near. Thereupon they shall exclaim: 'Would that we had followed the path of the Bab! Would that we had sought refuge only with Him, and not with men of perversity and error! For verily the Remembrance of God appeared before us,[2] behind us, and on all sides, yet we were, in very truth, shut out as by a veil from Him.' Chapter VII."
    [1 cf. Qur'án 68:42 ]
    [2 cf. ibid. 7:63, 69]
    (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 46)

    And most importantly from the Bab:
    "THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!"
    (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  18. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    Sorry Scott, if I was not able to make myself clear - I meant verses from the Quran - and you can take the cake - you have brought what are effectively Bahai traditions! And you wanted me to avoid Islamic traditions. I had to write an entire post about that!!

    Regards,
     
  19. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    I gave you no traditions whatsoever, Imran. They're all verses and this isn't the board to restrict ourselves to the Qur'an.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  20. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    My comments:

    1. Every word quoted by you is a "verse". But every "tradition" I bring is a tradition and vulnerable to forgery or hearsay. Even when you bring "verses" from "Selected Writings of the Bab". In that sense, every "tradition" from the prophet would be classified as a "verse" as the Quran says "he does not speak of his own desire, it is naught, but a revelation revealed upon him".

    2. The question was that how can one reconcile the Muslim viewpoint of a physical resurrection with the Bahai viewpoint of a spiritual one. The Bahais claim that they accept Mohammed, yet, veer away from explaining the tangential views of Prophet Mohammed and Bahaullah. And believe me the views are tangential. Fire is fire - one that burns and not something else. Allah promises a fire of Hell which will be fuelled by stones and men. But Bahaullah says, there is no fire. No paradise, no streams of cool refreshing water, no houries, no gardens no nothing. In effect, he is clearly denying the words of Prophet Mohammed who described each of these elements very very clearly and in minute detail. And yes, the Imams spoke on the same lines as the Prophet. No contradiction whatsoever.

    So I hope the question is a lot clearer. When one is comparing views, we need to evaluate both views. I already know what is being said about the Bahai Faith and also what has been discussed in Islam. That is why my question was about reconciling the views. And thence the need for verses of the Quran to be evaluated and backed by traditions of the Prophet and the Imams.

    Lastly, I never asked to be restricted by Quranic verses. You seem to have taken that conclusion all by yourself.

    Regards,
     

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