Discussion in 'Baha'i' started by Postmaster, Dec 6, 2006.
Show me where I have EVER said the Prophet lied.
"Also, who is the one who will define the "bounds of propriety and dignity" - you? "
As to what is within the bounds of propriety and dignity for ME, yes, I will decide. And God will let me know if I decided wrong. I certainly don't wait upon your judgement of my propriety.
As to what is propriety to you or anyone else, I will let you decide and suffer God to judge the worthiness of your decision.
Read my post about the part whrrein I have given you verses of the Quran, traditions of the prophet and the Imams about the condemnation of music in Islam. It took you all of 2 minutes to say that bahaullah changed the rules, Quran does not say anything about music and that the rest was superstitions and creation of the people who followed the prophet.
In effect, you denied everything I gave you in 2 minutes without even veryfying that what I had written. Such is your arrogance. When one does that, it is your word against that of Allah and the prophet. So either the prophet spoke the truth about music (which I believe) or he spoke falsehood (as you believe by denying the traditions outright).
I also mentioned that I am happy to change my view provided you proved me that the traditions are wrong. I stand by that.
Thank you for this response as well. Indeed, it clarifies a lot of concepts and from where you are coming from.
Thankfully, Islam is submission to the will of Allah. We worship Allah as Allah wants us to worship him and not how we want to worship Allah. So as per Islam the bounds of propriety and dignity as defined by Allah through the Quran and further explained by the Holy Prophet and the Imams.
I see where you are coming from as well. Submission to the Will of God is something we struggle with everyday and in every way. God wills us to face this struggle and use our own decisions and actions to test us to our capacity. I, too, worship God as best I understand as to how He would have me worship Him. Part of the reason for my existence is to make those choices, I cannot let anyone else make those choices for me, because that would be to act against the will of God.
If I allow the Imams to make those choices for me, I set myself against the will of God. God will judge each of the Imams based on what that soul did and did not do in life. God will judge me in the same way. I cannot stand before God and have Him ask me, "Why did you do this, or not do that?" and answer "Because the Imams told me to do that, and I let them choose for me."
"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy 78 gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)
I am glad you made this post because it clarifies one thing very clearly and it is that you have not understood Islam. Islam is submission to the word of Allah - worshipping Allah how Allah wants you to worship Him and not how you want to worship Allah.
If Allah is going to question us about our action in this world, intellect requires that the bounds of propriety and the limits are set by Him. So that on the Day of Judgement, no person can complain that he did not know. The Quran itself reminds man that,
"We sent Apostles as the givers of good tidings and as warners, so that the people would not have a plea against Allah after the coming of Apostles"
(Chapter of Nisa - The Women, verse 165)
In the opening verse of the Quran, we pray to Allah,
Ehdenas Seratal Mustaqeem
Keep us on the right path
(Chaper of Fateha - The Opening, verse 6)
We read this as "keep us on the right path" because Allah says,
Inna Hadaynahus Sabeel. Imma Shakerawn Wa Imma Kafoora
Surely We have guided (man) to the path. Now he be grateful or he deny
Everything has been explained by Allah and communicated through the Holy Prophet and the Imams. There is no scope for personal judgement at all in Islam. We were informed how to pray namaz, the rules for fasting, even that of sanitation, business, marriage, divorce in such great detail - that is why Islam is not a religion, it is a code of life, albeit one where the rules are not set by man, but by Allah and communicated by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as).
Allah reminds us,
And it behoves not a believing man and a believing women that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
(Chapter of Ahzab - The Allies, verse 36)
So you see, we are meant to follow the Holy Prophet and as per his instructions, the Imams who followed him. Not following them or choosing one's own judgement over theirs invites punishment by Allah. So when I am questioned about anything, I will reply that I did / did not do so because the Imams instructed me accordingly. For example, why did I not listen to music. Answer: The Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) instructed me so. Why did I pray 2 units of namaz in the morning, 8 in the afternoon and 7 in the evening? Because the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) told me so.
Yes, Quran says
La Ikraha Fid Deen
There is no compulsion in religion
(Chapter of baqarah - The Cow, verse 255)
But this verse is for unbelievers and not for believers. No person can be forced to accept Islam against his will. The Bahais tom tom this as one of the principles of their faith - the Quran spoke about independent investigation of the truth more than 1,400 years ago! Make your enquiries, ask all the questions you want. But once you are in the fold of Islam, one must accept its tenets. You may not follow it (there are Muslims who do not recite namaz), but you cannot reject it (rejecting namaz for example, in Islam is tantamount to kufr - heresy).
So in effect, that is the reason why I have never offered any personal view point and therein lies the difference. My entire thought process is fashioned out of what the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) said. They told us about the Mahdi in Islam. Now we have a person who claims to be the Mahdi. No problem. But we will not accept him just like that. We will need to see whether he fits the description and characterists of the Mahdi laid down by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as).
On the other hand, Scott, you have been saying that everything is your own personal opinion - however humble it may be. Islam has no scope for personal judgements - not even of mine or any person except words of Allah and their interpretation by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as). Islam is a religion of Allah, by Allah and for Allah only.
I hope it is now clear where I am coming from.
Now I hope we can get back to Bab and how he is the Promised Mahdi of Islam.
<But this verse is for unbelievers and not for believers. No person can be forced to accept Islam against his will. The Bahais tom tom this as one of the principles of their faith - the Quran spoke about independent investigation of the truth more than 1,400 years ago! Make your enquiries, ask all the questions you want. But once you are in the fold of Islam, one must accept its tenets. You may not follow it (there are Muslims who do not recite namaz), but you cannot reject it (rejecting namaz for example, in Islam is tantamount to kufr - heresy).
Actually this brings us right back to my question about your feelings about how the Baha`i's in Iran are persecuted for their faith. Not one of the Baha`i's in Persia today, to my knowledge ever drifted away from Islam in his life. They have been Baha`i's all their lives, yet you persecute them for that, threaten their lives and even take their lives because they will not submit to Islam. Their own faith precludes dissimulation, yet those judges demand they recant a faith that has been theirs all their lives, and threaten them with imprisonment or death for refusing to do so.
This is practicing Islam as God wills? I think not.
You missed the point entirely:
"I am glad you made this post because it clarifies one thing very clearly and it is that you have not understood Islam. Islam is submission to the word of Allah - worshipping Allah how Allah wants you to worship Him and not how you want to worship Allah.
If Allah is going to question us about our action in this world, intellect requires that the bounds of propriety and the limits are set by Him. So that on the Day of Judgement, no person can complain that he did not know. The Quran itself reminds man that,"
I only said I am the judge of my prpriety in this life and you are not. When I face God in judgement He will judge me by His measure, not yours.
Surely any measure such as yours that demands compliance at the point of a sword, threatening to take the lives of those who have never been Muslims because of their beliefs is a mockery of the Prophet's clear instruction.
At least you have acknowledged that the Prophet did not convert people at the point of the sword. He in fact forbade it.
I never said that I should be the judge of your propriety. I said very clearly, that my thought process is fashioned out of what the Prophet (pbuh) and what the Imams (as) said. Who am I to judge you?
Hopefully, you now have a better understanding of where I am coming from.
I have always proudly asserted that Islam is not a religion of the sword. Nor will I tolerate it when I hear it said. Nor will I ever say Muhammad ever lied; He spoke always as God directed Him to speak. Hopefully, you now have a better understanding of where I come from.
To improve that understanding neither did the Bab nor Baha`u'llah ever lie, but always spoke as God directed Them to speak. Nor Jesus, nor Moses, nor Zoroaster, nor Abraham.
I am glad to read your assertion that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) dd not lie. Why is it however that everytime I give you a tradition about the Prophet, you dismiss it summarily without checking its credentials. In my view, that is denying the words of the Prophet.
Also, I notice, you never have anything to say about the Imams. What is your view about the Imams.
Also, to some extent, I concur with you that the Bab did not lie. At least at 4 occasions in his books he has mentioned that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan and not he was the Mahdi of Islam.
I have talked about Ali and Husayn many times, and quoted Ali frequently.
The traditions are not necessarily the words of the Prophet, they are the words of those who remembered hearing the Prophet speak on certain occasions. Then a large committee of those individuals worked out the hadith so they could all agree on them. This was a committee, not the words of the Prophet. That makes the traditions hearsay, much like what most Muslims dislike about the Gospels.
The way the traditions were judged and recorded potentially re-wrote the words of the Prophet. For this very reason most Muslims say the Gospels are flawed and altered.
Sauce for the goose--sauce for the gander.
Nowhere in the authentic writings of the Bab does He say someone else is the Mahdi.
If the questionably authentic writings attributed in error to the Bab say differently then the lie is not the Bab's.
So you mean that all traditions are false? Because as per your logic, all traditions came down to us the same way. And if I am not mistaken, so did the words of the Bab and Bahaullah - you have a committee - the UHJ which is now doing the same. So in effect what you are telling me is that the words of the Bab and Bahaullah are hearsay as well!
One example I can give you right away is the book of Sahifae Adaliyah wherein on page 27, he outlines the belief of Imamate and names the 12 Imams in sequence and says that "Al Qaem Mohammed Ibnil Hasan Sahebazaman" is the 12th Imam.
Dennis McEoin, Abbas Amanat seem to think that this book is indeed that of the Bab. It is written in 1846 after Bab's return from Mecca.
is this book acceptable to the Bahais?
Dennis McEoin's opinion is his own, Imran. The fact remains that many of the so-called writings of the Bab have no provenance as such. Sahifae Adaliyah is one of those writings with no guarantee that it has not been significantly changed by people with no concern for the truth.
Except, of course, when you want to trumpet human-originated ideas like the claim that Islam prohibits music when the Qu'ran says no such thing! Once again, mere human traditions don't qualify as God's Word.
And indeed, in the Baha'i Writings God has made clear the high and very spiritual station that music can and should occupy--the exact opposite of what these so-called "Islamic traditions" say!
EXCEPT, of course, if that person is Baha'i, in which case you apparently don't object to his or her being threatened and executed for refusing to convert to Islam, as your own refusal to condemn this has made very clear! :-(
You will forgive us, I trust, if we don't find your picture of Islam the least bit attractive. Thank God its reality is infinitely more wonderful than the shoddy and distorted image you have presented here!
Let's think this through, Imran.
By this list the 12th Imam is referred to as the Mahdi, right?
By His return from Mecca, the Bab was claiming to BE the return of the 12th Imam--not the return of the body of Muhammad ibn Hassan, but the return in spirit--SO, if the Bab claims that ibn Hasan is the Mahdi then the Bab is also claiming to be the Mahdi returned.
To my understanding Muhammad ibn Hasan was not given the title of Mahdi until after his occultation, and he was given the title because of his occultation and promised return.
The Bab was that return.
I would like to suggest something to you that you obviously don't understand. The Baha'is are not pernicious, something that you would be familiar with because you are surrounded by pernicious people. They are a loving, supporting culture, dedicated to the worshipping of God/Allah in their very life and daily decisions.
Baha'is do not have an agenda. The Baha'is simply are following the Truths of God as given us by His most recent Manifestation, Baha'u'llah. Again, I would suggest, you are used to dealing with people with an agenda and so are always looking for the hidden meanings and motivations. It is why we answer questions instead of proselytizing.
The Baha'is are a vast and diverse network found throughout the world in all cultures and countries. They are not a populace of sheep, following the whims or translations of the clergy. Each one has and continues to Investigate individually, looking for the Truths of God/Allah, and, amazingly, coming to the same conclusions. Well, not so amazing, because we are told if we search with our heart, we will recognize the "Spirit of God/Allah". If we search with an agenda or a preconceived notion, then our logical and rational mind, God/Allah gave us, will be clouded. Many of these Baha'is are scholars, involved in academia in many different studies. Many of us are only lowly citizens serving God/Allah. All have come to the same message through investigation, prayer and love of God/Allah.
The Baha'is wish no harm to anybody. No one. Not even those that are causing such pain and suffering to Baha'is in Iran, that only those familiar with their plight could imagine. People like you and I. We both know what is being done to these loving people. We both know that without the dogmatic thoughts of man, these acts could not be justified. Surely, not by any of the writings of the Great Manifestations. Again, you may find this confusing, because you and yours do wish harm on anybody that wouldn't accept your brand of worship, as you have confessed to in this forum. You even have a derogatory name for those that don't think/believe as you do.
If it seems that some of your ideas, that took you two days to research and to write about, were dismissed in a short time, it is because, these hackneyed, trite expressions of discord are not new. We have heard them so many times before. They really have little meaning to us in the Realm of God/Allah. If it seems some of us are not as polite as you or as you would expect in your style of society, forgive us. Many of us have not bothered to acquire a "learned politeness", and sometimes we react to things that hurt us dearly, such as the atrocities that are being laid upon the heads of my Baha'i brothers and sisters in Iran and other Mid-eastern countries.
The Baha'is will have dialogue with you forever. They will pray for your understanding of the Righteousness of Baha'u'llah and the power of His world changing Message. They will not shy away from your accusations, nor will they waver in their "discovered" Truths of God/Allah. We can only hope that, some day, you will see at least a sliver of light shining from the works of Baha'u'llah.
My own view on this is that Imran has his own orientation which is decidedly anti-Baha'i and his posts reflect that..
I accept that. He also occasionally cites some Babi sources but these are not directly binding on Baha'is and have not been translated and readily available to most of us. The Selections from the Writings of the Bab is currently available to us and represents a volume that is roughly the size of the New Testament or the Qur'an and while selective it is still I think very important.. There will be more authenticated translations in the future.. The Writings of the Bab are viewed by us as revealed.
As to the Hadiths of the Imams, Baha'is I think are interested in them but they are not binding on us either as they are for Shiahs... We Baha'is believe there prophetic and inspired visions found in many works.
But to argue about religion here is like a corrosive and detracts I think from the purpose of the Forum...
A better arrangement for Imran is I believe for him as a Muslim is the Muslim Forum and/or comparative religion where he can discuss some of his points.
Separate names with a comma.