The Bab

Discussion in 'Baha'i' started by Postmaster, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    I doubt Mick was born Baha`i. I wasn't. Neither was Bruce. We all came to it the hard way--by examining it. We examined to see if it might be the truth. You examine it to find ways to argue against it. Your website is proof of that.

    Mostly you remind me of the testimony of the war criminals at Nuremburg.Well, you had no orders to do what you do; but, what you do is contributing to the death and persecution of the Baha`i's in Iran therefore you are also guilty of every evil inflicted upon them. Each one who suffers grief and anguish, imprisonment or death is one more mustard seed on the wrong end of the scales, Imran.

    If you were a true pilgrim you would look, decide and move on without concern for fighting against any religious claim. You just look for ways to sharpen your ax.

    Scott
     
  2. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    And the passage makes its own conclusion: Nevertheless, I am not so sure that he was the Master of the Command.

    By the way, does not "Amr" mean more closely "Cause". So He might be referred to as "Master of the Cause."

    It sounds like "If it be thy will, take this cup from me." that Jesus spoke in the Garden of Gethsamene.

    This side-steps the issue that the book you refer to has no real provenance and what it says about anything might be the forgery of others rather than the words of the Bab.
    Regards,
    Scott
     
  3. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    We cannot make you or assure you that you will understand anything. Again, I will repeat, you are not seeking...you are arguing. No other way to put it. I surely would not pray for a long life for you. That could be a wicked and horrible thing to do. Suppose you continue to be locked into your evil and nefarious way. How horrible that would be for anybody to suffer for a long period of time. I will pray that you will accept the life that God/Allah may grant you and learn to turn your face to God/Allah for His guidance.

    Until you are willing to respond to somebodies questions concerning whether you support the pernicious individuals that are causing harm to my brothers and sisters in Iran or are offended by these actions of these evil and misguided individuals, I refuse to discuss anything else with you, unless you would like to share prayers with us.

    Imran, I didn't say I love you. I am not even sure I could like you. In fact, right now, with what I know of you, I can honestly say I don't like you. On the other hand, if your heart quickened with the Truth of God and that radiant smile blossomed across your face that can only come from seeing His Guides, then I could surely fall in love with all you would represent. But I am not attracted to merchants of hate or thieves of time, so until that time, I would like it if you didn't think of me as your brother.

    Mick
     
  4. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    I could not understand what is the relation of the statement of Jesus with that of the Bab.

    Secondly, Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was referred to as Sahebal Amr as early as the period of the 6th Imam - Imam Sadiq (as).

    Thirdly, are you saying with any authority that the book was forged? If there documentary proof from any Bahai authority that one should not refer to Tafseere' Kausar because it is forged?

    At yet another place, the Bab while referring to the 12th Imam says:

    In Tafseere' Surah Kauthar, the Bab says, "He (the twelfth Imam) is a righteous offspring. His patronymic is Abu al-Qasim (the same nick name as the Holy Prophet Muhammad)."

    Yet, again, the Bab asserts that he was not the Mahdi. Was Abul Qasim the patronym of the Bab? If I remember correctly, Bab was from Iran and not an Arab. And I do not recollect him or any person ever referring to him as Abul Qasim.

    Regards,
     
  5. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    No problem if you dont like me. Or love me. Or dont pray for my long life.

    You wanted my view on Iran. I asked for the Bahai view on the Israel occupation of Palestine and murder of thousands of Palestinians.

    As per your request, only to make you happy, much against my will, I will not consider you as my brother.

    Regards,
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    You know little about the Gospels, so you fo course do not recognize the reference.

    How much do you know about the history of the writings of the Bab--the history of the 1844-1860 period (CE)? Do you know what happened to most disseminated documents of the Bab?

    Probably not.

    A fair number of the Bab's books did not make it through the destruction of the Babi population in 1852, of those that did very few entire manuscripts survived except in the possession of Mirza Yahya (Subhi Azal). There is no proof that they were not altered in his possession and those documents do differ substantially from the manuscripts in possession of the International Archives when the comparison can be made. They lack provenance (provenance: the history of ownership of a valued object or work of art or literature). Without provenance it cannot be trusted. Like hadith without the proper chain of recitation.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  7. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    Is'nt it surprising the Allah chose to protect the Quran for more than 1,400 years, but the next "revelation" is lost? or at least it s unreliable and open to question? Or atleast thats what the Bahais themselves are saying?
     
  8. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    But the Bab was the gate. Is his works secondary to Bahá'u'lláh?

    Also Mohammed’s Quran was originally an oral tradition? Those who wrote it, you can't say for sure they left a perfect record.

    The relationship between the Bab and Bahá'u'lláh is compared to Jesus and John the Baptist, John the Baptist who was the last prophet of Christinity and we do not have his works and was executed by th king of the time. From a historical point of view Jesus and John share a more similar relationship to the Bab and Bahá'u'lláh compared to a biblical point of view.
     
  9. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Baha'i

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    Sigh.

    Mere equating of a major human-rights issue (denial of religious freedom) with mere partisan politics, and hence an apparently convenient cop-out.

    Bruce
     
  10. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Baha'i

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    Why would He?

    John the Baptist was Elijah, as Jesus Himself stated.

    Peace,

    Bruce
     
  11. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    I could accuse you of not offering a view on the issue as I have been in the past. But I wont.

    Live in peace.

    Regards,
     
  12. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    You have voiced my question. when the Bab saw some person who he thought was the Mahdi, then are'nt we are talking about two completely different individuals?

    Why is it being justified as transmigration or that the Bab was the spirit or essence or whatever of the Mahdi when he himself does not say so. Incidentally, the Bab expressly prohibits the interpretation of his words. He says so in the Bayan itself. So respecting the words of the Bab, will it be possible to obtain any citation, quotation from the Bab about this theory of spirit, transmigration please?

    And, if it is not there, then what is the basis of this theory?

    Regards,
     
  13. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    Imran,

    We know that there were versions of the Qur'an sent out before Umar's redaction of the Qur'an replaced those early versions. One such Qur'an was discovered in the late 1970's during the restoration of Yemen's oldest mosque. We also know there were significant differences in the text.

    So there was a period of time during the later years of Muhammad when earlier versions of the Qur'an were copied and distributed and several years after the passing of Muhammad Umar's redaction replaced those. The custom was to bury worn copies of the Qur'an in a grave. The manuscripts found in the Yemeni mosque were bundled and hidden in the rafters.

    So even though the redaction replaced those early Qur'ans, there is a period of time during which non-standard Qur'ans existed.

    When the Bab was executed and particularly during the round up and mob murders of the Babi's 1852-1853 many copies of the Bab's writings were hidden inside walls or burned to avoid being caught by Babi hunters. As many as 20,000 Babis died between 1844 and 1853. One of the busy industries amongst the Babi's in Baghdad was the copying of texts and distributing them back into Persia.

    During this time, Mirza Yahya felt more and more threatened by Baha`u'llah, the forgeries began. The function of Mirza Yahya was a postmaster general for the Babi's, so it was relatively easy for him to slip the forgeries into circulation. As the further exile began, it became obvious that Mirza Yahya was attempting to undercut the growing popularity and recognition of his half-brother Baha`u'llah, and Subhi Azal (Mirza Yahya) began to disseminate challenging documents under his own name as well.

    As it was the Bab knew His 'Book' would be superseded in a short time by He Whom God Would Make Manifest.

    "This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to 7 affirm that the Bayan and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: 'Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayan in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding. Thou dost indeed suffice every created thing and causest it to be 8 independent of all things, while nothing in the heavens or on the earth or that which lieth between them can ever suffice Thee.'"
    (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab)
     
  14. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    Are you suggesting that the Quran is corrupted? If yes, you are contradicting the Quran itself which claims to be protected by none other than Allah itself.

    We are actually at the Bab and his position as the Mahdi of Islam. Once we cross the Bab, we can consider his position vis a vis Bahaullah - is that a fair promise?

    Regards,
     
  15. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    There is no transmigration, Imran. The Bab was The Messenger, just like Muhammad or Jesus before Him. This is where the Bab differs from John the Baptist and Elijah. They were not The Messenger, they were harbingers of The Messenger. They were nabi, not rasul. There is no return of the soul of Elijah, John the Baptist was not the return of the soul of Elijah. John was the essence of the qualities of Elijah and performed the same role.

    No human soul returns to this earth in a physical body.

    The spirit which animates The Messenger is somewhat different, it's not the same soul but the return of the Holy Spirit. This makes all the Messengers ONE, and the Voice which emanates from Their mouths is ONE. Part of the Bab's Message was to prepare for the advent of He Whom God Would Make Manifest--Baha`u'llah.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  16. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    while I dont really agree with your assesment of the history of Quran, I ask you - is your personal opinion or the Bahai viewpoint that the Quran could be corrupted?

    There is really no reason for us to believe that the Quran is corrupted. We have sufficient proofs to believe that it was available as a compilation during the term of Imam Ali who ruled between 35-40 AH.

    Also, if the Bab knew that his dispensation would be superceded, did Allah not know that the Quran would be superceded? Yet even 150 years after the new dispensation, the Quran is uncorrupted? At the same time, as per your previous post, the writings of the Bab were lost within a few years only?

    As regards your view about Subhi Azal, true, if there was a fight for the post, then Subhi Azal may have indulged in these malpractices. But why would Subhi Azal forge the documents to indicate that the Bab was not the Mahdi. I can well understand if Subhi Azal wrote books and forged citations about his own superiority over Bahaullah? Why would he forge citations about the Mahdi? What pupose would that achieve?

    Regards,
     
  17. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays New Member

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    One cannot consider the Bab without considering Baha`u'llah. You are making a false distinction to sidetrack the discussion. I am not a Babi, I am a Baha`i.
    I revere the Bab, but I follow Baha`u'llah. The code of law I am to follow is NOT the Bayan, it is the Aqdas.

    Insisting on having your own way in a discussion is childish, like spray-painting grafitti on walls.

    "This Holy Land hath been mentioned and extolled in all the sacred Scriptures. In it have appeared the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones. This is the wilderness in which all the Messengers of God have wandered, from which their cry, "Here am I, here am I, O my God" was raised. This is the promised Land in which He Who is the Revelation of God was destined to be made manifest. This is the Vale of God's unsearchable decree, the snow-white Spot, the Land of unfading splendor. Whatever hath come to pass in this Day hath been foretold in the Scriptures of old. These same Scriptures, however, unanimously 345 condemn the people that inhabit this land. They have, at one time, been stigmatized as the "generation of vipers." Behold how this wronged One is now, whilst surrounded by a "generation of vipers," calling aloud and summoning all men to Him Who is the world's Ultimate Desire, the Summit and Day Spring of Glory. Happy is the man that hath hearkened to the voice of Him Who is the Lord of the Kingdom of Utterance, and woe betide the heedless, they that have strayed far from His truth."
    (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 344)

    Don't choose to be a 'viper', Imran. You have legs, be a man.

    Scott
     
  18. Mick

    Mick World Citizen

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    My goodness, how unwarranted. How utterly slippery. Am I understanding you to say that you are withholding your response concerning your obvious support of individuals torturing and killing Baha'is in Iran because you are waiting for our response concerning a political issue in Israel. How could you connect the two. It would be like one of us saying to you, I will answer your questions concerning The Bab if you could tell me what is the sound of one hand clapping. Ludicrous.

    The Baha'is believe that through prayer and the consultation of the parties involved, peace will prevail. We believe that if you apply spiritual solutions to economic and political problems, you will get sane and just answers.

    So, now, I have answered you. What is your position concerning the torturing and killing of Baha'is in Iran? What is your position of torturing and killing for any reason for that matter? But if that is too big of a question for you, then concentrate on the atrocities we both know are continuing in Iran and the ostracizing that is going on in Egypt. I will make it simple for you. I will ask you a yes/no question and then all you have to do is choose between a three letter word and a two letter word.

    Do you support the torturing and killing of Baha'is in Iran?

    Mick
     
  19. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    Dear Scott:

    Now you are confusing me. First you said that the bab was the return of the spirit of the Mahdi, then you said that it was not the spirit, but the essence. Then you said that it was not the essence, but transmigration. Now you are telling me that there was no transmigration, but Bab was a prophet.

    I agree with you that no human soul returns to this earth in a human body - unless Allah wills it so. Mind you, I am not suggesting that any person did come back in human form - but only saying that if Allah wanted, He could do it. In fact I cannot even remember any one example where any person came back in his own, leave alone some person else's body.

    But that is where the confusion arises. Was the Bab the Mahdi? His words do not seem to suggest that. In fact, his words seem to suggest that it was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan who was the Mahdi. And he gives us no clue about the theory of spirit, essence etc. Bab was Bab and Mahdi was Mahdi. In fact in Sahifae Adaliyah, he prays to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan and seeks help from him.

    Again and again at different points of time in his life (at the start, middle and end), in his books he says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan is the Qaem, Mahdi, Sahebal Amr, Sahebazzaman. He talks about his occultation, titles, geneology; he refers to traditions about him etc. Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was in occultation at the time of the Bab. The Bab himself said that he saw some person whom he thought was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan? Could it be that the Bab was preparing the world for the coming of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan - by whose arrival, as per traditions, Allah will fill the earth with justice and equality, just as it will be full of tyranny and opression? Just a thought, why would the Bab be so crystal clear about the Mahdi? And if he is then who is the Bab?

    And once again, I request if you could bring any quotation from the Bab that he was the essence, spirit of the Mahdi.

    Regards,
     
  20. imranshaykh

    imranshaykh New Member

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    I believe that through prayer and the consultation of the parties involved, peace will prevail. I believe that if you apply spiritual solutions to economic and political problems, you will get sane and just answers.

    So, now, I have answered you.

    Regards,
     

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