Jesus Sun of God

[China Cat Sunflower]

Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Psa 19:5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
Psa 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

KJV

Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
Mat 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Mat 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.


KJV

Take a look at these two quotes, one from the Psalmist, and the other from Matthew’s gospel.

“The heavens declare the glory of God”, says the Psalmist, and the “firmament” shows his handiwork. Everyday they speak, and every night they show knowledge. And this is evident everywhere. Matthew tells the story of the Magi following a star. That star led them to the “Glory of God.” These two passages seem coincidental. The bridegroom imagery in reference to the sun in Psalms works out nicely with the Son who is the bridegroom of the Church. Christmas as the evolved celebration of the solstice… It all sounds pretty , uh, astrological to me.

Comments?

Chris

 

[path_of_one]

Well, I always thought that the move of Jesus' birthday to the Solstice was meaningful and not incorrect in concept. The rebirth of light... and the birth of the light of the world...

I love those old psalms verses. Having often experienced God through Creation, it speaks to me.

I wonder if there is a real connection there (between the verses) or if it is just that two different writers, many many centuries apart, just happened to think of the same metaphor (bridegroom).

 

[Faithfulservant]

I love this thread! Did you know that the story of the gospel may be in the stars.. I read something on it.. it seems thats another thing that satan twisted.. The constellations actually may tell the story.. if you dont mind I would like to post some links about what Im talking about.

Is the gospel spelled out in the stars? - ChristianAnswers.Net

Is There a Gospel in the Stars?

Signs in the Stars?

Just something fun to ponder..

 

[Prober]

And don't forget that Jesus is expected to return through the open space in Orion!

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Interesting links FS!

If the Magi were following a star, an astral phenomenon which they had anticipated and obviously understood as a hugely important event, that kinda tends toward the idea that Jesus birth was happening at a specific astronomical time, doesn't it? I mean, these guys were astronomers, and it was an important enough astral transit for them to saddle up the camels and head for Judea.

So it's not just that Jesus is the Messiah, Logos, Promised One...etc., his birth happened at a specific, astronomically auspicious moment, and scientists of the day knew something big was coming from their astronomical observations. They knew this was the star that heralded him, even if they didn't know who, exactly, he was.

Chris

 

[wil]

Interesting links FS!

If the Magi were following a star, an astral phenomenon which they had anticipated and obviously understood as a hugely important event, that kinda tends toward the idea that Jesus birth was happening at a specific astronomical time, doesn't it?

Haven't I read that it was determined to be a comet?? And that has helped place the time of year of birth?

12 disciples + 1 Son
12 Tribes
12 Constellations

so much to explore....

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Haven't I read that it was determined to be a comet?? And that has helped place the time of year of birth?

12 disciples + 1 Son
12 Tribes
12 Constellations

so much to explore....

Don't forget twelve semi-tones in an octave. Ah, the music of the spheres!

Oh, and twelve days of Christmas!

Chris

 

[InLove]

Christmas? The heavens? Music?

Okay...

Home By Another Way

Those magic men the Magi, some people call them wise
Or Oriental, even kings--well anyway, those guys,
They visited with Jesus, they sure enjoyed their stay--
Then warned in a dream of King Herod's scheme, they went home by another way.

Yes, they went home by another way, home by another way;
Maybe me and you can be wise guys too and go home by another way.
We can make it another way, safe home as they used to say.
Keep a weather eye to the chart on high and go home another way.

Steer clear of royal welcomes, avoid a big to-do.
A king who would slaughter the innocents will not cut a deal for you.
He really, really wants those presents, he'll comb your camel's fur
Until his boys announce they've found trace amounts of your frankincense, gold and myrth.

Time to go home by another way, home by another way.
You have to figure the Gods, saying play the odds, and go home by another way.
We can make it another way, safe home as they used to say.
Keep a weather eye to the chart on high and go home another way.

Home is where they want you now,
You can more or less assume that you'll be welcome in the end.
Mustn't let King Herod haunt you so
Or fantasize his features when you're looking at a friend.

Well it pleasures me to be here and to sing this song tonight--
They tell me that life is a miracle and I figured that they're right.
But Herod's always out there, he's got our cards on file.
It's a lead pipe cinch, if we give an inch, old Herod likes to take a mile.

It's best to go home by another way, home by another way.
We got this far to a lucky star, but tomorrow is another day.
We can make it another way, safe home as they used to say.
Keep a weather eye to the chart on high and go home another way.

(Mayer-Taylor--from Never Die Young, James Taylor 1987)

InPeace,
InLove

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

That's so funny, I was thinking of posting that lyric. Love James Taylor!

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

Take a look at these two quotes, one from the Psalmist, and the other from Matthew’s gospel.

“The heavens declare the glory of God”, says the Psalmist, and the “firmament” shows his handiwork. Everyday they speak, and every night they show knowledge. And this is evident everywhere. Matthew tells the story of the Magi following a star. That star led them to the “Glory of God.” These two passages seem coincidental. The bridegroom imagery in reference to the sun in Psalms works out nicely with the Son who is the bridegroom of the Church. Christmas as the evolved celebration of the solstice… It all sounds pretty , uh, astrological to me.

Comments?

Chris

Indeed Chris. But the "astrology" you are thinking of and the "astrology" the writers were considering are two very different concepts.

One is for personal gain, and the other was for the Glory of God...big difference...

 

[flowperson]

And don't ever forget that the Magi were Iranians (Persians). Why would they bring gifts to a Jew...who went on to found Christainity ?

My head hurts !

flow....

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Indeed Chris. But the "astrology" you are thinking of and the "astrology" the writers were considering are two very different concepts.

One is for personal gain, and the other was for the Glory of God...big difference...

Well, I don't think that astrology and astronomy diverged until some later point, but I did use the word to provoke comment.

I'm interested in the idea of Jesus birth being an astronomically auspicious event. But beyond that there are a lot of tie-ins between the symbolism employed by the gospel authors regarding Jesus and early stuff referencing the various sun gods. There is also underlying gematria in the Gospels suggestive of that theme. It reminds me of Paul's idea of being all things to all men. I said once that if Jesus is the Logos all stories, all mythologies, are at there core essentially about him. This kinda goes along with that.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

One of the things that interesest me about this topic is the idea of an astronomically ordered dispensationalism. We can deduce from the story of the Magi following the star that Jesus arrival was pre-programed, as it were, to occur at a specific moment. That implies a whole host of interesting things. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Chris

 

[Thomas]

Hi Chris –

I said once that if Jesus is the Logos all stories, all mythologies, are at there core essentially about him. This kinda goes along with that.

Can't fault that argument.

One of the things that interesest me about this topic is the idea of an astronomically ordered dispensationalism. We can deduce from the story of the Magi following the star that Jesus arrival was pre-programed, as it were, to occur at a specific moment. That implies a whole host of interesting things. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Yep. The Cosmos is a theophany. I don't see the Cosmos as 'controlling' anything, for which reason I would always suggest to an astrologer to look beyond the stars for the cause of things.

The Greek word 'Cosmos' means 'order' but also 'adornment' – which is why it is viewed as theophanic. Humanity is the highpoint of that theophany, we are the Jewel in the Crown, as it were.

Chris

 

[InLove]

That's so funny, I was thinking of posting that lyric. Love James Taylor!

Indeed? No doubt you have noticed something remarkable about our (mine and yours) ideas in the area of posting musical lyrics? I love it! And I beat you to it this time. By the way, J.T. has recorded a Christmas album this year--but I'll bet you know that.

Yep. The Cosmos is a theophany. I don't see the Cosmos as 'controlling' anything, for which reason I would always suggest to an astrologer to look beyond the stars for the cause of things.

Thanks, Thomas for that thought. My youngest daughter (she is only 20, chronologically, anyway) does a lot of work for others in the area of astrology. She doesn't charge anything, and what she does is very interesting to me, even though I don't always understand what she is talking about. She and I have, in the past, quietly disagreed on the wisdom of her activities. But one day I overheard her speaking with a "client", and I heard her say that the information she was sharing was not to be taken in the sense that the heavenly arrangements ruled anything--that there was something greater to find in their order and announcements. I thought this was an extraordinary thing for her to say. Since then, I have had no qualms about what she does. She is instrumental in helping others think about things, and while I realize some might not understand her thought process in this regard, I do. I am going to print out your post for her. I am interested in what she might say. (I have tried to encourage her to check out CR, but so far I don't think she has.)

So, here is a not-too-intellectual question for anyone here that I think would fit right into the conversation: I have heard about the theory that there may have been a convergence of three stars that appeared as one over Bethlehem at about the right time as to possibly be the one that the NT speaks of at the birth of Christ. I noticed in the movie "The Nativity Story" (and I know it is just a movie) that the star was portrayed this way. I woud love to hear comments on this, if anyone wishes.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[flowperson]

More likely a planetary convergence, which 2,000 years ago would have appeared to be stars to the populace. BTW this also happened on the 10th of this year. Lots of notices on web news sites about it.

flow...

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Yep. The Cosmos is a theophany. I don't see the Cosmos as 'controlling' anything, for which reason I would always suggest to an astrologer to look beyond the stars for the cause of things.

The Greek word 'Cosmos' means 'order' but also 'adornment' – which is why it is viewed as theophanic. Humanity is the highpoint of that theophany, we are the Jewel in the Crown, as it were.

Chris

Do you see concrete reality, in the most objective sense, as essentially theophanic? IOW, not just nature, but how everything works and is arranged and arrayed? Is structure and proportion a part of the enlightened expression of the theophanic vision? I'm thinking in a pythagorean sense. This is kind of how I see it, but it's hard to explain without sounding like some kind of New Agey nut.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Chris –

Do you see concrete reality, in the most objective sense, as essentially theophanic?
Yep.

"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
Romans 8:22-23

IOW, not just nature, but how everything works and is arranged and arrayed?
Yep – Theophanic, but fallen too...

Is structure and proportion a part of the enlightened expression of the theophanic vision?
Abso-bloomin-lutely – 'structure' and 'proportion' are two definitions of the word Logos, as are 'ratio' and also 'discourse'.

I'm thinking in a pythagorean sense. This is kind of how I see it, but it's hard to explain without sounding like some kind of New Agey nut.
Well, Pythagoras was a 'New Agey nut' in his day.

The Church Fathers were 'New Agey' too.

Gregory of Nyssa spoke about 'distance' and 'spacing' ... St Maximus of 'movement' and 'becoming' ... deep stuff ...

I love it cos it feeds me, stretches me beyond my parameters, and I know it's been tested by 2,000 of philosophical rigour by brains way more acute than mine ...

... the Greek Philosophers had it too, I like Anaximanders' idea of 'Apeiron' – the Boundless (unconditioned, infinite, etc) and Arche – Principle, or Logos. The Fathers spoke of God the Father as 'Arche Anarchos' – the Principle without Principle, and the Son as Arche or Logos – Principle.

Anaximander saw it all ordered according to Justice.

Genesis 1:1 'in the beginning' is mirrored by St John's 'in the beginning' and both, in the Greek, use 'arche'.

The Fathers see it all ordered according to Love.

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

Do you see concrete reality, in the most objective sense, as essentially theophanic? IOW, not just nature, but how everything works and is arranged and arrayed? Is structure and proportion a part of the enlightened expression of the theophanic vision? I'm thinking in a pythagorean sense. This is kind of how I see it, but it's hard to explain without sounding like some kind of New Agey nut.

In other words, there is too much order to this "random chance" thingy that is being promoted?...

Imagine, 56 quadrillion combinations of switch throwing on a dna chain, and one switch off or on, could mean no life at all. Yet it happens every day. Random Chance?...

Think about it. In the world of physics "Entropy" is the natural order of things, yet the opposite is happening. By all rights there should be no human after the first, hell there should be no life at all. By now the universe should have stabilized to its most basic elements. But it isn't. New stars are born every moment. And they're stable for the next 30 billion years. Life struggles and becomes viable in the harshest of conditions right here on earth. You can't even kill dandylions in your drive way cracks without multiple doses of weed killer...

Life defies the laws of physics. It defies the laws of Chemistry. Life is defiant. Entropy demands simplicity, and life says no. I am. Life declares, "I Am"...holy sh*t!!!!! What is Life? Is it...could it be, Christ? I mean could that be what He meant? The very life force that empowers us all? hmmm.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

What is Life? Is it...could it be, Christ? I mean could that be what He meant? The very life force that empowers us all? hmmm.

That reminds me of the text, I think it's in Acts, where Paul says that "in him we live, and move, and have our being."

Chris