Jesus Sun of God

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by China Cat Sunflower, Dec 9, 2006.

  1. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Take a look at these two quotes, one from the Psalmist, and the other from Matthew’s gospel.

    “The heavens declare the glory of God”, says the Psalmist, and the “firmament” shows his handiwork. Everyday they speak, and every night they show knowledge. And this is evident everywhere. Matthew tells the story of the Magi following a star. That star led them to the “Glory of God.” These two passages seem coincidental. The bridegroom imagery in reference to the sun in Psalms works out nicely with the Son who is the bridegroom of the Church. Christmas as the evolved celebration of the solstice… It all sounds pretty , uh, astrological to me.

    Comments?

    Chris
     
  2. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    Well, I always thought that the move of Jesus' birthday to the Solstice was meaningful and not incorrect in concept. The rebirth of light... and the birth of the light of the world...

    I love those old psalms verses. Having often experienced God through Creation, it speaks to me.

    I wonder if there is a real connection there (between the verses) or if it is just that two different writers, many many centuries apart, just happened to think of the same metaphor (bridegroom).
     
  3. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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  4. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    And don't forget that Jesus is expected to return through the open space in Orion!
     
  5. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Interesting links FS!

    If the Magi were following a star, an astral phenomenon which they had anticipated and obviously understood as a hugely important event, that kinda tends toward the idea that Jesus birth was happening at a specific astronomical time, doesn't it? I mean, these guys were astronomers, and it was an important enough astral transit for them to saddle up the camels and head for Judea.

    So it's not just that Jesus is the Messiah, Logos, Promised One...etc., his birth happened at a specific, astronomically auspicious moment, and scientists of the day knew something big was coming from their astronomical observations. They knew this was the star that heralded him, even if they didn't know who, exactly, he was.

    Chris
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Haven't I read that it was determined to be a comet?? And that has helped place the time of year of birth?

    12 disciples + 1 Son
    12 Tribes
    12 Constellations

    so much to explore....
     
  7. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Don't forget twelve semi-tones in an octave. Ah, the music of the spheres!

    Oh, and twelve days of Christmas!:)

    Chris
     
  8. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Christmas? The heavens? Music?

    Okay...

    Home By Another Way

    Those magic men the Magi, some people call them wise
    Or Oriental, even kings--well anyway, those guys,
    They visited with Jesus, they sure enjoyed their stay--
    Then warned in a dream of King Herod's scheme, they went home by another way.

    Yes, they went home by another way, home by another way;
    Maybe me and you can be wise guys too and go home by another way.
    We can make it another way, safe home as they used to say.
    Keep a weather eye to the chart on high and go home another way.

    Steer clear of royal welcomes, avoid a big to-do.
    A king who would slaughter the innocents will not cut a deal for you.
    He really, really wants those presents, he'll comb your camel's fur
    Until his boys announce they've found trace amounts of your frankincense, gold and myrth.

    Time to go home by another way, home by another way.
    You have to figure the Gods, saying play the odds, and go home by another way.
    We can make it another way, safe home as they used to say.
    Keep a weather eye to the chart on high and go home another way.

    Home is where they want you now,
    You can more or less assume that you'll be welcome in the end.
    Mustn't let King Herod haunt you so
    Or fantasize his features when you're looking at a friend.

    Well it pleasures me to be here and to sing this song tonight--
    They tell me that life is a miracle and I figured that they're right.
    But Herod's always out there, he's got our cards on file.
    It's a lead pipe cinch, if we give an inch, old Herod likes to take a mile.

    It's best to go home by another way, home by another way.
    We got this far to a lucky star, but tomorrow is another day.
    We can make it another way, safe home as they used to say.
    Keep a weather eye to the chart on high and go home another way.

    (Mayer-Taylor--from Never Die Young, James Taylor 1987)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  9. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    That's so funny, I was thinking of posting that lyric. Love James Taylor!

    Chris
     
  10. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Indeed Chris. But the "astrology" you are thinking of and the "astrology" the writers were considering are two very different concepts.

    One is for personal gain, and the other was for the Glory of God...big difference...
     
  11. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    And don't ever forget that the Magi were Iranians (Persians). Why would they bring gifts to a Jew...who went on to found Christainity ?

    My head hurts !

    flow....;)
     
  12. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Well, I don't think that astrology and astronomy diverged until some later point, but I did use the word to provoke comment.

    I'm interested in the idea of Jesus birth being an astronomically auspicious event. But beyond that there are a lot of tie-ins between the symbolism employed by the gospel authors regarding Jesus and early stuff referencing the various sun gods. There is also underlying gematria in the Gospels suggestive of that theme. It reminds me of Paul's idea of being all things to all men. I said once that if Jesus is the Logos all stories, all mythologies, are at there core essentially about him. This kinda goes along with that.

    Chris
     
  13. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    One of the things that interesest me about this topic is the idea of an astronomically ordered dispensationalism. We can deduce from the story of the Magi following the star that Jesus arrival was pre-programed, as it were, to occur at a specific moment. That implies a whole host of interesting things. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

    Chris
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Chris –

    I said once that if Jesus is the Logos all stories, all mythologies, are at there core essentially about him. This kinda goes along with that.

    Can't fault that argument.

    One of the things that interesest me about this topic is the idea of an astronomically ordered dispensationalism. We can deduce from the story of the Magi following the star that Jesus arrival was pre-programed, as it were, to occur at a specific moment. That implies a whole host of interesting things. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

    Yep. The Cosmos is a theophany. I don't see the Cosmos as 'controlling' anything, for which reason I would always suggest to an astrologer to look beyond the stars for the cause of things.

    The Greek word 'Cosmos' means 'order' but also 'adornment' – which is why it is viewed as theophanic. Humanity is the highpoint of that theophany, we are the Jewel in the Crown, as it were.

    Chris
     
  15. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Indeed? No doubt you have noticed something remarkable about our (mine and yours) ideas in the area of posting musical lyrics? I love it! And I beat you to it this time. By the way, J.T. has recorded a Christmas album this year--but I'll bet you know that. ;)

    Thanks, Thomas for that thought. My youngest daughter (she is only 20, chronologically, anyway) does a lot of work for others in the area of astrology. She doesn't charge anything, and what she does is very interesting to me, even though I don't always understand what she is talking about. She and I have, in the past, quietly disagreed on the wisdom of her activities. But one day I overheard her speaking with a "client", and I heard her say that the information she was sharing was not to be taken in the sense that the heavenly arrangements ruled anything--that there was something greater to find in their order and announcements. I thought this was an extraordinary thing for her to say. Since then, I have had no qualms about what she does. She is instrumental in helping others think about things, and while I realize some might not understand her thought process in this regard, I do. I am going to print out your post for her. I am interested in what she might say. (I have tried to encourage her to check out CR, but so far I don't think she has.)

    So, here is a not-too-intellectual question for anyone here that I think would fit right into the conversation: I have heard about the theory that there may have been a convergence of three stars that appeared as one over Bethlehem at about the right time as to possibly be the one that the NT speaks of at the birth of Christ. I noticed in the movie "The Nativity Story" (and I know it is just a movie) that the star was portrayed this way. I woud love to hear comments on this, if anyone wishes.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  16. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    More likely a planetary convergence, which 2,000 years ago would have appeared to be stars to the populace. BTW this also happened on the 10th of this year. Lots of notices on web news sites about it.

    flow...;)
     
  17. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Do you see concrete reality, in the most objective sense, as essentially theophanic? IOW, not just nature, but how everything works and is arranged and arrayed? Is structure and proportion a part of the enlightened expression of the theophanic vision? I'm thinking in a pythagorean sense. This is kind of how I see it, but it's hard to explain without sounding like some kind of New Agey nut.
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Chris –

    Do you see concrete reality, in the most objective sense, as essentially theophanic?
    Yep.

    "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
    Romans 8:22-23

    IOW, not just nature, but how everything works and is arranged and arrayed?
    Yep – Theophanic, but fallen too...

    Is structure and proportion a part of the enlightened expression of the theophanic vision?
    Abso-bloomin-lutely – 'structure' and 'proportion' are two definitions of the word Logos, as are 'ratio' and also 'discourse'.

    I'm thinking in a pythagorean sense. This is kind of how I see it, but it's hard to explain without sounding like some kind of New Agey nut.
    Well, Pythagoras was a 'New Agey nut' in his day.

    The Church Fathers were 'New Agey' too.

    Gregory of Nyssa spoke about 'distance' and 'spacing' ... St Maximus of 'movement' and 'becoming' ... deep stuff ...

    I love it cos it feeds me, stretches me beyond my parameters, and I know it's been tested by 2,000 of philosophical rigour by brains way more acute than mine ...

    ... the Greek Philosophers had it too, I like Anaximanders' idea of 'Apeiron' – the Boundless (unconditioned, infinite, etc) and Arche – Principle, or Logos. The Fathers spoke of God the Father as 'Arche Anarchos' – the Principle without Principle, and the Son as Arche or Logos – Principle.

    Anaximander saw it all ordered according to Justice.

    Genesis 1:1 'in the beginning' is mirrored by St John's 'in the beginning' and both, in the Greek, use 'arche'.

    The Fathers see it all ordered according to Love.

    Thomas
     
  19. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    In other words, there is too much order to this "random chance" thingy that is being promoted?...

    Imagine, 56 quadrillion combinations of switch throwing on a dna chain, and one switch off or on, could mean no life at all. Yet it happens every day. Random Chance?...:eek:

    Think about it. In the world of physics "Entropy" is the natural order of things, yet the opposite is happening. By all rights there should be no human after the first, hell there should be no life at all. By now the universe should have stabilized to its most basic elements. But it isn't. New stars are born every moment. And they're stable for the next 30 billion years. Life struggles and becomes viable in the harshest of conditions right here on earth. You can't even kill dandylions in your drive way cracks without multiple doses of weed killer...

    Life defies the laws of physics. It defies the laws of Chemistry. Life is defiant. Entropy demands simplicity, and life says no. I am. Life declares, "I Am"...holy sh*t!!!!! What is Life? Is it...could it be, Christ? I mean could that be what He meant? The very life force that empowers us all? hmmm.
     
  20. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    That reminds me of the text, I think it's in Acts, where Paul says that "in him we live, and move, and have our being."

    Chris
     

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