Thought worthy of pondering...
- Thread starter Silas
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Dondi
Well-Known Member
I'm going to tackle this one in a roundabout, albeit, biblical manner. Follow the logic:
"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question." - Mark 12:28-24
Jesus stated that He came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. Since He said in Matthew 22:40, that the two above commandments are the summation of the Law, then He must have fulfilled this also.
Jesus is the Word of God, whereby the Word is God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us(John 1:1,14), and in Him dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). Then Jesus as God fulfilled the Law.
Since the Law states, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself", then it stands to reason that God loves His neighbor as Himself.
Therefore God loves us as much as He loves Himself.
To me the question implies a choice where there is none.
G-d doesn't love us or 'him'self.
G-d is love.
G-d doesn't love us or 'him'self.
G-d is love.
OK, here's my logic. I'll try to systematize it in an attempt to answer your comments orderly and then end with something we might agree on. First, concerning the noted scriptures in Mark through Colossians: I think you did well in bringing up the summary of the law - namely, to love God first and love man like yourself. Yet, as Jesus noted about the sabbath (one of the Laws of God), "It was made for man and not man for it." Therefore, my first argument is that since God is not bound by any law and is a law unto Himself, I affairm with Jesus that the Laws are for man and not God. Secondly, since God Himself is Love - in fact the hightest form of Love; not the selfish kind or self-seeking kind or needy, wanting kind of love, but instead agape, it stands evident that God's choice in loving us is not based on anything in us, but soley on His own choice to lavish His Love upon us (Jer 31:3). In other words, we didnt persuade him to love us, or merit it in anyway. Rather, He simply chooses to Love people, save people, justly punish people, etc., all for His own Glory (Isa. 48:9-11).
Third, though it is become sort of customary to say "God loves the sinner but hates their sin," that is still a meaningless distination. Why? Because there is nothing in the sinner but sin (Rom. 14:23 Isa. 64:6). And, since God hates sin and condemns because of it, and since it is an abomination for God to justify the wicked (Proverb 17:15) - namely, us, it shows that God's passion for His holiness and righteousness and for His name to be great among the universe, isnt thwarted by a need or want for loving mankind. In other words, God loves His glory more than He loves us! Lastly (and I hope this inspires you), God does love mankind! In fact, so much so that I cannot begin to understand or try to explain in words. It is not a gerneral kind of love that suggest that Christ died for everyone the same way he died for His bride (all those who would repent and believe), which incidentially some people contend for. But rather, Christ so loved the Chruch vis-a-vis, His bride, that He gave Himself for Her that she might be holy and blameless in His sight and be able to live to God's glory (Eph. 5:25-27). God's love in Christ is a covernantal love which began in eternity and will last forever.
If you are a Christian, you are a vessle of grace and a walking miricle! God has chosen to set His steadfast love on you that no matter what, you will be His. He will cause you to walk in His ways, observe His laws and walk in His statues (Ezk. 36:26-27). You will be transformed by His grace into the image of Christ through santification. If you are a Christian, chosen by God's forknoweldge of you in eternity past, you exist to glorify God insomuch that for all eternity, you and everyone else, will be praising God for the mercy He had on you. You are saved to the praise and glory of His grace (Eph. 1:6) and NOT anything in you or because of your worth. You, like myself and everyone else, have no worth. We are nothing but detestable sinners apart from Christ - we arent loveable. But thanks be to God, who is rich in mercy, that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So should we keep the Sabbath, Silas?
I think we should uphold the law - all of it. But, not as to gain any favor with God and thereby believe salvation is based on works rather than faith based, but instead to please God. You know? Romans 3...you dig?
I think this goes into the two wills of God, namely "will of decree" and "will of command." God wills for us to obey His laws on one hand, yet he ordains breaking of the law and wills to redeem man by grace on the other hand. So my answer is the same above: God wants us to keep the law (will of command -which we can break), but wills to save us from the law and on grace alone (will of decree - which cannot be broken).
I think the keep the sabbath is for us. Dedicating time for spirit is for our benefit...the law just tells us its value...tis to our detriment to avoid it.
China Cat Sunflower
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"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" implies that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of man, for his use, and not vice versa. Man is not the slave of the Sabbath.
So Prober...Does it matter which day is observed as Sabbath, or is any seventh day good? Like, if I start on Tuesday, then Monday would be my Sabbath. Or if I were to start my work week on Monday, then Sunday would be my Sabbath. Is that right?
Chris
So Prober...Does it matter which day is observed as Sabbath, or is any seventh day good? Like, if I start on Tuesday, then Monday would be my Sabbath. Or if I were to start my work week on Monday, then Sunday would be my Sabbath. Is that right?
Chris
Or what moment? It seems if we know that G-d is the source of our supply....that we have access to all...the time to keep the sabbath holy is everytime we think we are in charge, everytime our material, I know better ego trys to take over, it is time to take a moment for gratitude, a time to step back.
China Cat Sunflower
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I dunno, the Sabbath is a really interesting concept when you dig into it. I'm not sure that the Sabbath is anything more than ceremonial without the eretz Israel concepts that go with it. In other words, to really actualize the practical force, or energy, or magic...whatever, of the Sabbath you would have to also do all the stuff related to the husbandry of the land.
Chris
Chris
Just seen this thread and it reminded me of a thread I started before, it was based on this article, http://www.desiringgod.org/library/t...s_himself.html
to see the thread, http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/is-god-for-us-or-5250.html
to see the thread, http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/is-god-for-us-or-5250.html
In accordance with scripture, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath...
17th Angel
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Is god for us or for himself?? I think a way to look at this is simply...
Does your god need humans? What advantage does he get from having us?
Then compare this to;
Do humans need your god? What advantage do humans get from having your god?
So wouldn't you then see your god made humans out of love? Not because he NEEDED us... We are not even on par with him are we? He can create worlds and stars and suns and moons, conqure death and so on... What can we do, that is on any scale near that.... He can apparently save us, and if we accept him as our god, and live by his rules can be saved. Whats the point? lol... I make an ant farm (earth and humans.) I put all the lil ants upon it and try to populate it... Just for giggles. Then they start messing up the tunnels I had placed and such... Would I care? No... But if, I did... That is out of love is it not? If the ants go to ruine or mess up and what not, thats not my problem... That doesn't effect me. So I think for something of such importance to give time of day to something so small, so inferior, so insignificant.... thats love.
Does your god need humans? What advantage does he get from having us?
Then compare this to;
Do humans need your god? What advantage do humans get from having your god?
So wouldn't you then see your god made humans out of love? Not because he NEEDED us... We are not even on par with him are we? He can create worlds and stars and suns and moons, conqure death and so on... What can we do, that is on any scale near that.... He can apparently save us, and if we accept him as our god, and live by his rules can be saved. Whats the point? lol... I make an ant farm (earth and humans.) I put all the lil ants upon it and try to populate it... Just for giggles. Then they start messing up the tunnels I had placed and such... Would I care? No... But if, I did... That is out of love is it not? If the ants go to ruine or mess up and what not, thats not my problem... That doesn't effect me. So I think for something of such importance to give time of day to something so small, so inferior, so insignificant.... thats love.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
But the Law is a reflection of His Holiness. Sure, the Law was made for Man, but to teach Him about God's righteousness...and our obvious inability to keep it. It is our schoolmaster to bring us to that realization and therefore to Christ. The two Laws of Summation is the highest ideal. It sums up the character of God...that God is Love. The fulfillment of the Law is enacted through the Spirit of God in our lives when we are born again of the Spirit. the Law becomes written in our hearts, in our conscience.
Silas said:
Seems you are giving a contradiction here. On one hand you are saying that God's love is not a self-seeking love, but then you say that God chooses to love for His Own Glory. Am I missing something here?
I think the thing we need to realize is that God created us. Notice what God says about Man's creation:
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them...And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." - Genesis 1:27, 31
In all the other days of creation, God just said that is was good, but when He made man, He said that it was very good. Man is the crown of His creation, created in the image of Him. Look at what Psalm 8 says:
"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:" - Psalm 8:4-6
So it is nonsense to believe that God doesn't hold a special place in His heart for Man. He created something special. The only thing that keeps us from being who He wants us to be is our sin. That is why He loves the sinner (Man), but hates the sin. He looks at sin like it is a disease, which it is. He has pity for His creation, He loves His creation and will die for it's cure. I think it is folly to think that there is only sin in the sinner, for God sees the potential in us, if we would only be willing to be restored. His judgement isn't on the sin, but rather our refusal to be made right.
Ok so we take the days of creation, and on the seventh he finished and then rested...and then we argue that those days aren't days but metaphor and are like eons...
And then we decide that the week is seven days and align this sabbath with one day of the week...Jews took Saturday, so we'll skip to SunDay, which left Islam with Friday...but we won't get into all that...but suddenly our metaphor for creation is back to one day?
So this sabbath, should we keep it holy for an eon? No that's too long, a day? But what about football? Or the golf final day? Oh this celebrating, giving time back to G-d is getting into my schedule...can't have it.
I say give it to G-d moment by moment, your sabbath and mine don't have to align.
And then we decide that the week is seven days and align this sabbath with one day of the week...Jews took Saturday, so we'll skip to SunDay, which left Islam with Friday...but we won't get into all that...but suddenly our metaphor for creation is back to one day?
So this sabbath, should we keep it holy for an eon? No that's too long, a day? But what about football? Or the golf final day? Oh this celebrating, giving time back to G-d is getting into my schedule...can't have it.
I say give it to G-d moment by moment, your sabbath and mine don't have to align.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
What is the purpose of the sabboth? If it was made for man, what doth it prosper?
It was a day of rest, a reminder that God rested the seventh day. It is to re-energize our spiritual and physical energies for the work of the other days of the week. It is a time when we can set our hearts and minds toward God and remember the goodness of God.
There were also sabbaths for the lands. This was to allow the soil to be revitalized with essential nutients for growing food. If we are going to be fruitfull in our Christian life, we need this rest likewise. it matters not what day we observe it, as long as we do. IMHO.