What made god?

Thomas

Administrator
Admin
Messages
12,463
Reaction score
2,680
Points
108
Because you're trying to comprehend an Absolute in relative terms – you're trying to locate God in space and time, as a limited mode of being, rather than the other way round.

Space, time, etc. are all relatives, they are dependent, and relational, they can only be understood, or comprehended, in relation to something else, even if that something else is a negative.

It doesn't make sense because you're thinking about it the wrong way: In terms either positive (cataphatic) or negative (apophatic) – both are inadequate ... but we cannot assume God does not exist because of our own limitations.

Thomas
 

17th Angel

לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
Messages
9,437
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Have you seen the little piggies crawling in the d
No, I just think the idea, whatever way you look at it is wrong.. Nothing made god? Nothing had a chain reaction like the "big bang" and by random made him... But then if it did, what made the big bang? Or what made his creator?

I don't assume he doesn't exist, I know he doesn't, but what I am trying to figure is how it would be possible.... ;/ My limitations have nothing to do with it... If there was a god he would -have- to be made by something or someone ;/
 

Quahom1

What was the question?
Messages
9,906
Reaction score
5
Points
36
Location
Maryland
No, I just think the idea, whatever way you look at it is wrong.. Nothing made god? Nothing had a chain reaction like the "big bang" and by random made him... But then if it did, what made the big bang? Or what made his creator?

I don't assume he doesn't exist, I know he doesn't, but what I am trying to figure is how it would be possible.... ;/ My limitations have nothing to do with it... If there was a god he would -have- to be made by something or someone ;/

I too find it rather difficult to conceive of the infinite, when I am finite...

...or as JFK noted "Oh Lord, your ocean is so big, and my boat is so small..."
 

taijasi

Gnōthi seauton
Messages
2,642
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Terra Firma
Whatsamatta, 17th, you not happy with the Genesis account? You've asked this on the Christianity forum, so my guess is you'd like to see what kind of answers Christians provide? ;)


Something a friend said to me in an email recently fairly well encapsulates both his understanding, and mine ... neither of us being Christians in any conventional sense of the word, yet perhaps both of us conditionally so in an esoteric or mystical one:
so the first sentence of the Bible is generally given to us as: In the beginning, god created the heavens and earth. But, the closer rendering is more like: The head of meditating spirits separated the upper and lower heavens. There is obviously no "beginning" for something which happened in boundless time, and no god creating anything.​
So part of this, and the part which I think is most important, emphasizes that even our concept of TIME- or rather, TIME Itself - emanates from, is created by, the being Christians call God. This makes God the source, of all matter, all time, all thought ... which from our point of view, means that God is truly the ARCHITECT of all that we know of as "Reality."

William Blake, both in his poetry and in his artwork, tries to convey a sense of this ... especially in the painting `Ancient of Days.' There is something Glorius, to me, about this simple - yet stirring - painting. It is as if the colors yellow-orange, with hints of a deeper red, all speak to us on some primal, basic level (help, chakraman, I think you could say something here about our first three chakras ;)).

By no mistake, or coincidence, did Blake choose the SUN for that background, against which the Father, Creator-God extends His hands to define, or set up, the physical Universe. Here, we might get the idea of the dividing of the Heavens from the Earth, in a more abstract, symbolic sense ... which is surely what Genesis 1:1 is indicating (and what my friend is referring to in the email).

Yet all this is going on in front of the Sun, and the presence of the clouds only helps unmistakably to contrast the darkness of space, from the creative power(s) of LIGHT ... which are at work here. We might imagine the Ancient of Days as coming forth from behind - or within - the Sun (as the Hindu prayer, the Gayatri suggests).

From our limited, or Sun-illuminated world point of view, it is thus from within darkness that we originate, as well as to darkness that we return. And science, it would seem, concurs!

God, as well as our every conception of God, we ourselves, and the entirety of Kosmos, can safely be said to proceed from an unknown IS ... and just as surely, it will all return there. Yet space itself, the "here and there," is part of God's Creation.

The fudge factor here, is where and how do we allow for the breakdown of human conceptuality ... and realize, or accept, that NONE OF US really knows? :)

"The Bible says" is one thing, and such-and-such a great sage once taught, is of course, just more of the same. Our most sacred, revelatory spiritual experiences, though of immeasurable importance for us ... actually tell us *nothing* about what ultimately lies beyond the veil.

For the sake of sanity and simplicity, we can say, God is Love, and I think this is a failsafe. It is a touchstone, and a transformative truth all by itself. :)

And while God is also Will, as well as Creative Intelligence, a Trinity, Three in One, I don't think there is actually an answer to the question, Who made God.

~~~~

Hmmm, now that I see Thomas has posted, you can just scratch most of the above. He has already essentially said this - much clearer, much cleaner. TIME is part of God's Creation. You cannot ask, Who or what made God, because this avoids the most obvious answer of all:
GOD JUST IS
(Always has been, IS NOW, and Always will be)​
What we can ask, in the context of Christianity, is how did our understanding evolve and develop ... throughout the ages. Assume that God has both desired, and gone about ensuring a relationship with His Creation (all aspects thereof) since the very dawn of time. THEN we can address this question in some form or fashion.

Personally, I resist the boxes (of any number of dimensions or proportions) which we try and fit around the word, or concept, G-D. Notice, even the Kabbalistic concept of YHWH, the Tetragrammaton, or "name of God," is not meant to be an outright NAME, in the sense of Bill, or Pete, or Ted. Otherwise, let's all just worship the almighty _Insert_Name_Here_ and be done with it! :rolleyes:

Perphaps the question can be asked another way:​
Why is there something rather than nothing? :p
~Zag​
 

Dondi

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,615
Reaction score
3
Points
36
Location
Southern Maryland
No, I just think the idea, whatever way you look at it is wrong.. Nothing made god? Nothing had a chain reaction like the "big bang" and by random made him... But then if it did, what made the big bang? Or what made his creator?

I don't assume he doesn't exist, I know he doesn't, but what I am trying to figure is how it would be possible.... ;/ My limitations have nothing to do with it... If there was a god he would -have- to be made by something or someone ;/

How is it you know He doesn't exist? What make you so sure?
 

InLove

at peace
Messages
3,267
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
Texas
I think that we cannot even begin to answer the question "What made God?" unless we contemplate first on "What made man?" If our answer to the latter question is along the lines of evolution, then shouldn't we ask ourselves what made the entities from which we decided we evolved? If we think that Big Bang is viable as a starting point, then what made the universe and the stars and the exploding gases?

Just my elementary thoughts on the matter.

InPeace,
InLove
 

17th Angel

לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
Messages
9,437
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Have you seen the little piggies crawling in the d
How is it you know He doesn't exist? What make you so sure?

From what I see, do, experience, how is it you know he does exist...... As it is off topic, well leave it at I know he doesn't exist, and you know he does exist. :D

I think that we cannot even begin to answer the question "What made God?" unless we contemplate first on "What made man?" If our answer to the latter question is along the lines of evolution, then shouldn't we ask ourselves what made the entities from which we decided we evolved? If we think that Big Bang is viable as a starting point, then what made the universe and the stars and the exploding gases?

Just my elementary thoughts on the matter.

InPeace,
InLove

A bit like put the whole universe into a box? Then what is out side of this box?! Put all of that and that box in an even larger box!$£"!$£"! There is still something on the outside of that box! Crazy eh..

Whatsamatta, 17th, you not happy with the Genesis account? You've asked this on the Christianity forum, so my guess is you'd like to see what kind of answers Christians provide? ;)

~Zag​

Again, another meaty answer.. I haven't read of all of it yet lol, just the first few paragraphs and then noticed you too went for the "god just is" lol... I put this thread here for enschnitz and giggles... I wouldn't mind hearing anyones reasoning to how their god came to be... But yeah...


I too find it rather difficult to conceive of the infinite, when I am finite...

...or as JFK noted "Oh Lord, your ocean is so big, and my boat is so small..."

Time to go shopping for a bigger ship ;/
 

Thomas

Administrator
Admin
Messages
12,463
Reaction score
2,680
Points
108
I don't assume he doesn't exist, I know he doesn't,
OK ... Your proof of that – that we might know also?

but what I am trying to figure is how it would be possible.... ;/ My limitations have nothing to do with it... If there was a god he would -have- to be made by something or someone ;/

Oh, 17th Angel! Your limitations have -everything- to do with it – you have already determined that 'he would -have- to be made' – which limits the possibility of an answer by ruling out the possibility that God might not 'be made' - you're trying to figure out how something is possible when you've already insisted on the terms that make an understanding impossible.

But OK – you're arguing from causation - everything that is, must have a cause – now trace that back ... and you eventually, logically, end up with a 'first cause' or, if simultaneous, 'first causes' ... OK, but what caused the first cause?

Other questions: Does the infinite exist?

Or even better, Zagreus' question: "Why is there something, rather than nothing?"

Thomas
 

17th Angel

לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
Messages
9,437
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Have you seen the little piggies crawling in the d
I ain't trying to argue :D

I just want to see if anyone has any better answers than the "oh god is and was and that and there...."

My proof? god come down here and bring me a bag of chips......

*waits*

Nope nothing there... I don't think it is my job to proove what others claim exists, doesn't exist thats there job to proove it does... You have no proof that will make me become a sheep... ANYWAY

So to say, that nothing can come from nothing and that everything has to be made from something else, is my limitation?

Why is there something rather than nothing.... Because there has always been something.

Time exists... I would not be sure in what way you mean when you say does infinite exist... to what respect?
 

Postmaster

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,312
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Well, in life we can see the finger prints God has left us. Like mystical experiences within most major world religions, billions of humans decide to accept him as existing and people choose to live differently as a consequence of this thinking (which is to benefit to us all). 17th, you are failing to understand the concept of infinity, just like we all do because to us it's incomprehensible, simply because we are finite (at present) but infinity does exist because we wouldn’t exist now. Something has always been there and that something is the infinite God.
 

17th Angel

לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
Messages
9,437
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Have you seen the little piggies crawling in the d
I think it goes around in constant circles that there is always "something" and it can mutate change shift whatever and continues and continues to change... we are that something and thousands of years to come that something will be something completely different lol... I wouldn't say the something is god. The something just was... and is. ;)
 

InLove

at peace
Messages
3,267
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
Texas
17th Angel said:
Because there has always been something.

Maybe you just answered your own question, Angel. :)

InPeace,
InLove

Edit: Oops! Simultaneous posting!
 

Postmaster

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,312
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Yeah but the reality of God gets greater every time it mutates, it evolves not devolves. Just as with most understanding about things like carriages to cars.
 

InLove

at peace
Messages
3,267
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
Texas
Postmaster said:
Yeah but the reality of God gets greater every time it mutates, it evolves not devolves.

I submit that the reality of God is constant. Whatever appears to evolve has always been. We may see it as some sort of change, but I think that is because our vision is limited.

InPeace,
InLove
 

taijasi

Gnōthi seauton
Messages
2,642
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Terra Firma
Okay, scratch my latest yarn of a novella reply. :p

One of the wisest, and also most compassionate, people I've ever known, put it to me like this:

He said, as he made an expansion-contraction motion with his hands, "there are some people who believe that the universe just breathes."

And this is what I believe. :)

We know that there was a Big Bang, immediately preceded by a singularity. Eventually, our Kosmos will reach an overall state of equilibrium, and then we will experience the Big Crunch. The final outcome of this: another singularity.

Now rest. Lather, rinse, repeat. :p

But Siriusly ... HOW OLD did you say God was? Immortal, was it? Eternal?

INFINITE

Ahh, without beginning or end. I breathe, I grow old, I die. I may or may not be reborn, but regardless, even the cycle of birth, death & rebirth is NOT an eternal cycle. Eventually, this too will end. This is basic cosmology.

But if GOD has no beginning, or end, then that means that there NEVER WAS a "first" cycle. There is no "last" cycle.

Please don't ask, 'What's the point?' Or if you do, then as Thich Nhat Hanh says, "Don't just do something. SIT THERE." :)

What was the question again?

~Zag

EDIT: Now add, what Postmaster said above. ;) :)
 
Top