Are Humans Evil Apart from the Grace of God?

lunamoth

lunamoth

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This is to finish a conversation I was having with Silas in another thread that can be found here.

A quick recap,
Silas said: "Humans are evil apart from the Grace of God."

luna said: I disagree

Silas said: What about where God said "that all your best work at it zenith, apart from Christ, is as filty rags?"

luna said: God is love so yes, anything that is done that is not love is not of God.

Silas said: "Do you believe Jesus who said "you being evil know how to give good?"

luna said: That's taken from Matthew and it is hyperbole (exaggeration) to make the point that God's unconditional love is so much greater than our own.

Silas said: "Do you believe God when He stated in the psalms and Romans, 1, 2, and 3 (and else where), that we all are murders for lack of opportunity?"


luna said (using Paul's words): This is from Paul (and I agree with him) that we are fallen, we make choices apart from God that lead to evil actions. That is not the same as being evil. It is sin under the law. Christ has come to put all sin and evil under His feet.

Silas said: "do you still think that your goodness is actually good in God's Holy eyes?"

I did not directly answer this in my post, but my answer is "yes, of course." Good is good and to say it is not is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Then Silas asked: "Where do you see in the Bible that we are called "good" or are good, apart from Christ?"

luna said: Genesis 1:1-31.

Then Silas said: "That was before the fall. What about after the fall?"

luna said: Genesis 3:1-24. Nope, I don't see God calling us evil after the fall either.

And Silas asked: "Why do you think Jesus came?"

my answer: To repair our relationship with God, to redeem us and to take away the sin of the world.

Q: What is sin?A: Sin is the seeking of our own will instead of the will of God, thus distorting our relationship with God, with other people, and with all creation.


Q: How does sin have power over us?
A: Sin has power over us because we lose our liberty when our relationship with God is distorted.


Q: What is redemption?A: Redemption is the act of God which sets us free from the power of evil, sin, and death.


Q: How did God prepare us for redemption?
A: God sent the prophets to call us back to himself, to show us our need for redemption, and to announce the coming of the Messiah.


Q: What is meant by the Messiah?
A: The Messiah is one sent by God to free us from the power of sin, so that with the help of God we may live in harmony with God, within ourselves, with our neighbors, and with all creation.


Q: Who do we believe is the Messiah?
A: The Messiah, or Christ, is Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son of God.
 
Q:What is sin? Sin is disobedience to God


Q: How does sin have power over us? Sin has power over us because we are naturally rebellious against authority.



Q: What is redemption?
.an act of redeeming or the state of being redeemed.
2.deliverance; rescue.
3.Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.
4.atonement for guilt.
5.repurchase, as of something sold.
6.paying off, as of a mortgage, bond, or note.
7.recovery by payment, as of something pledged


Q: How did God prepare us for redemption? By giving us the law and our complete failure at keeping it.



Q: What is meant by the Messiah? The Anointed One the promised deliverer of Israel anointed as prophet priest and king by God.



Hi Luna

I wanted to correct your interpreation of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Saying your evil isnt blaspheming the Spirit.. saying the power of the Holy Spirit is evil is blaspheming Him.
 
My answers to your questions are in Blue.

Q: What is sin?

Sin is transgrettion of God's Law (1 John 3:4). The essence of sin is that we do things and choose things and love things, that show that we do not value God above those things. That is one of the reasons it is so wicked to God. When we sin, we exchange the infinitely precious and glorious God for idols.

Q: How does sin have power over us?

Sin has power over us because we are willingly enslaved to it. Jesus said, "everyone who sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). Apart from Christ, we are all slaves to sin from birth.We're all selfish and self-centered by nature. We do not put God first because we care more about seeking our own will and pleasure rather than submiting to our Creator God and Master.

Q: What is redemption?

Redemption is entailed in God's choice and plan to save the objects of His wrath - namely, mankind.

Q: How did God prepare us for redemption?

God prepares us for redemption by changing our nature. We were all born once and born dead in sin and aliens to God. We hated Him and choose to not seek Him. In His mercy God has called us from death to life by regenerating us. This is commonly called being "born again" and unless this occures, we will not even see the kingdom of God. God promises that He will do the work to those He saves in the day of His power..."I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Ezk 36:25-27). The "I's" in red are there for you to see who is causing us to be holy. It is God who changes our nature and causes us to be born again.

Q: What is meant by the Messiah?

Messiah means "anointed one." Jesus the Messiah is God's anointed one, the Son of the Living God and 2nd person within the Holy Trinity. In Him dwells the fullness of the mystery of the Godhead in bodily form (Colossians 2:9-10). The Messiah or Christ is the propetiation or atoning scarifice for all who believe. If we repent and trust in Jesus we are made right with God because God has made Him to be our sacrifice wereby our sins are imputed to His body where He suffered the cost for sin, and His perfect righteousness is thereby imputed or credited to our account making us both justified and pefect before God. We are not perfect because of us, but because of Jesus' perfection imputed to us.

Q: Who do we believe is the Messiah?

Jesus!!
 
there is none good but god, otherwise we wouldnt be in need of a saviour.
 
(from Wikipedia) In religion and ethics, Evil refers to the morally objectionable aspects of the behaviour and reasoning of human beings — those which are deliberately void of conscience, and show a wanton penchant for destruction. Evil is sometimes defined as the absence of a good which could and should be present; the absence of which is a void in what should be. In most cultures, the word is used to describe acts, thoughts, and ideas which are thought to (either directly or causally) bring about affliction and death — the opposite of goodness, which itself refers to aspects which are life-affirming, peaceful, and constructive.

By definition, I suppose you could say that humans are evil. I agree with Luna on Matthew's hyperbole in that case.

I prefer to think that we become evil when we act that way and return to being good (with a little g) when we turn from evil.

G-d, of course, is the only one that is Good (with a big G).

I think there are gradations within the word.

If your 3-year old accidently knocked over a plant and then tried to clean it up, thus smearing mud all over the place, and you could tell that she tried really hard to do a good job and she looked up at you sweetly and said...

"Sorry Mommy"...

Would you tell her she did a good job?

Would you call her evil?
 
Hi Silas, you say:
"Humans are evil apart from the Grace of God."

John said:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)

That is not quite the case, I think. Humans are 'good' (as Genesis states), in fact 'very good', but fell into sin. However, our essential nature, given by God, like our souls, created by God, remain essentially 'very good' but wounded or corrupted by sin.

Christ restores our nature, He doesn't replace it with another nature – that means I would become another person. You remain you, but you are saved, you have not become someone else in that sense, although 'in a twinkling' you have been reborn, changed (not replaced).

Love the sinner, not the sin?

Thomas
(Oh my my, am I becoming an ... evangelical?)
 
Thomas said:
Hi Silas, you say:
"Humans are evil apart from the Grace of God."

John said:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)

That is not quite the case, I think. Humans are 'good' (as Genesis states), in fact 'very good', but fell into sin. However, our essential nature, given by God, like our souls, created by God, remain essentially 'very good' but wounded or corrupted by sin.

Christ restores our nature, He doesn't replace it with another nature – that means I would become another person. You remain you, but you are saved, you have not become someone else in that sense, although 'in a twinkling' you have been reborn, changed (not replaced).

Love the sinner, not the sin?

Thomas
(Oh my my, am I becoming an ... evangelical?)
Click to expand...

I like what A.W. Pink once said about that cliche' phrase "God loves the sinner not the sin." He said, "it has become costomary to say that God loves the sinner but hates the sin, but thats a meaningless distintion. What is in the sinner but sin?" The mere fact that God choose to save the objects of His wrath speaks volumes to His love. But that said, do not assume that it is something in us that motivated Christ to leave His Father side and leave infinite pleasure and beauty and peace and satisfication and glory, to come and suffer God's wrath for mankind. There is nothing is us that motivated God's love, there is only in us, things worthy of His wrath. God's choice to save us came from within Himself. He loves us because He chose to love us. That should be both humbling and satifying to the believer of Christ. Humbling because it should strip of your your assumed worth, whereby you will boast only in Him, and sastifying because if He chose to love you, it started in eternity and will last for forever. You are indeed, Blessed! But I digress. I just said a lot of hard things that I havent backed up. Im actually between working and typing here. Do you want me to back up man's inherant evil nature with scripture? Or, do you have a good enough idea of how bad man is already?
 
Hi Silas,

I found a quote that agrees with you that evil deeds are part of our being:

"...These things (speaking about addictions and other self-destructive aspects of our nature) are but the symptoms of the ultimate nneed in human life for a redemptive process to occur. People who are addicted to anything are not free to be until they have accepted the shadow side of their lives as an essential part of who they are. That shadow side is finally a stark and overt counterpoint to our being. The healing power that can address our shadow is not absolution--the declaration of the forgiveness of our sins, as if somehow our evil deeds were separate from our being. The healing power is the love that accepts us as we are, shadow included, and says that every part of who we are is made in the image of God."
 
Dor said:
Of course and I could not agree with him any less.:)
Click to expand...

Hi Dor, Well, I'm not sure I agree with him either...just thought it was interesting that he and Silas agree about evil as part of our being. Anyway, disagreement can be an honorable and even respectful position when it's not done to belittle.

Spongs's words do make me ponder...I think he's right that we need to embrace people as they are. If we're waiting for people to be healed first...what need do they have for a Healer?

luna
 
Why do you feel that men apart from Christ are good in God's eyes, Luna?
 
Silas said:
Why do you feel that men apart from Christ are good in God's eyes, Luna?
Click to expand...

You are asking the wrong question Silas.


1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt 7)
 
We arent supposed to judge to condemn.. we are supposed to judge to identify...

I judge to identify that we... our old men.. our flesh is wicked and corrupt.
 
lunamoth said:
You are asking the wrong question Silas.


1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt 7)
Click to expand...

1. You took Matt 7 out of context (as most do). The verse is taking about hypocrates, i.e., those who say "dont do this" and they themselves do it. The Bible says to "make righteous judgements." When we do that, we arent judging, in essence, but rather telling the truth. Here's an example: "Dont be gay." No doubt I will be labeled "wrong" and "intolerant" and "mean" for saying that. But, its the truth, nonetheless. I didnt judge, but instead just reiterated the truth of God's words. 2. Why do you believe that man is good in God's eyes apart from Christ?
 
lunamoth said:
What do you then call judging whether others are good?
Click to expand...

Its called inspecting fruit... we identify the fruit as being good or bad.. Do a word study for the word judge in greek. Like the word Love... there are so many words in greek for love and we have one... its the same for most all of their words..
 
I believe as in Genesis that we are created good. Very good. We are all beloved of God. But we sin. We do evil things, we rebel, we turn away from God. But our being is good.

I did not take the Matt quote out of context. As we judge others we judge ourselves and creation. Deciding whether or not another is 'good' is the way out of the garden.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Its called inspecting fruit... we identify the fruit as being good or bad.. Do a word study for the word judge in greek. Like the word Love... there are so many words in greek for love and we have one... its the same for most all of their words..
Click to expand...


We can judge actions and decide whether they are good or bad, helpful or harmful, condcive to life or leading to death. We won't be able to judge perfectly because we live in a fallen world, but I think we are still obligated to try to work toward virtue, the fruit of the Spirit.

But to judge the being of others...way above my pay grade.

We are not to judge but to assume Christ in each face we see.

And yes Love has a much richer meaning that we tend to give it in English. When I say Love I do not mean the emotion for warm fuzzy feelings or attachment or desire. I mean agape, unconditional love, forgiveness, empathy, compassion, loving-kindness, social justice, truthfulness. Love binds them all together:

12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Col 3)
Click to expand...
 
lunamoth said:
I believe as in Genesis that we are created good. Very good. We are all beloved of God. But we sin. We do evil things, we rebel, we turn away from God. But our being is good.

I did not take the Matt quote out of context. As we judge others we judge ourselves and creation. Deciding whether or not another is 'good' is the way out of the garden.
Click to expand...

So you have a Pelagian view of scripture? You believe that we're born good?
 
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