JesusYeshuaIssa did not die on Cross

juantoo3

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Kindest Regards to everybody!

In an effort to maintain peace on the Christianity board while still presenting an subject worth exploring, I thought it well to move Inhumility's post here.

What does Christ' sacrifical death accomplish?

Hi
In my faith, JesusYeshuaIssa did not die on Cross. Nevertheless that does mean that there was no sacrifice on his part, though he survived the cursed death on Cross yet this trial and tribulations and his remaining steadfast against evil increased his stature in the eyes of GodAllahYHWH who accepted his sacrifice, like He accepted the sacrifice of son of Abraham though he was also not slaughtered physically in fact. This added to the Charisma of Jesus and to me this event accomplished followings:-
1. GodAllahYHWH is Supreme and He helps his ProphetsMessengers in time of need and against all odds and nobody could frustrate His designs.
2. GodAllahYHWH hears the supplications of his beloved ones and virtuous men, like He heard supplications of JesusYeshuaIssa at the garden called Gethsemane.
3. GodAllahYHWH defeats evil doings of the mischief mongers like He frustrated the evil designs of the Jewish priesthood who were bent upon killing him on the Cross.
4. The prophecies of the ProphetsMessengers are fulfilled as these are Word from GodAllahYHWH, like the sign of Jonah was fulfilled against all odds.

So there were many accomplishments attached with this sacrifice. I have mentioned some of these. I love Jesus, may GodAllahYHWH bless his soul and shower His blessings on him in the heaven, his permanant resting place there.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam
 
Hi All,

I moved this thread to the Comparative Studies Board where I think it will generate freer and more equitable discussion. :)

luna
 
D'you realise we have more evidence on who killed Jesus than we do about who killed Kennedy or Monroe? And people are more certain about who killed them, even in the absence of evidence ... so history will record that LHO was not acting alone, and that MM did not die of an overdose at her own hand ... but not a shred of proof for either.

But is either theory 'true'? or are those who perpetuate the story really perpetuating a myth of their own fashioning?

If you think about it logically then, it's not His death that makes people question, its His resurrection.

Which brings us back to the C.S. Lewis issue – He is mad, or bad ... or God.

+++

Personally I think the subtext of these questions is usually either:
1 – The refusal to accept Jesus Christ as God and man – a fundamental denial of the Mystery of the Incarnation and the Trinity;
2 – The inability to understand the Mystery, so those who can't understand assume He can't have died, because they can't see the reason why He did. In short, sentimentalism.

Thomas
 
D'you realise we have more evidence on who killed Jesus than we do about who killed Kennedy
Namaste Thomas,

I'm sorry, your research is often incredible, but this statement, are you serious? It is currently 40 years after Kennedy's death, if we were compare that to Jesus..there would be nothing written yet, not for another couple decades. Can you imagine the Warren Commision having produced nothing yet? What do we have on Jesus's death, maybe 15 lines? And the account of the 'villian' is confused with two death stories...
 
Hi Wil –

Probably being a bit contentious there ... but my point is there's far more involved in saying that Jesus survived the cross than simply questioning the evidence of four gospels.

It is currently 40 years after Kennedy's death, if we were compare that to Jesus..there would be nothing written yet, not for another couple decades.

OK. And what is written, what passes down to posterity, would seem to be the concensus of the people. The majority of sources which doubted the death of Christ, do so on the basis of the knowledge of the death and resurrection does not fit with their own philosophy, therefore it is disputed not on any material evidence, but rather, on the incredulity of such being the case.

In the case of JFK and MM however, the question of conspiracy emerged almost immediately, which clouds the 'official' story of the events. The question of a Christian 'conspiracy' did not emerge until some considerable time afterwards.

Put another way: A document turns up, purporting to be 'The Gospel of Judas', claiming that Christ never died on the cross. Other documents state the same, but present a different course of events. From where I am standing, these appear to be accepted and championed, without question, by those self-same people who throw up every doubt and question about the veracity of the four Gospels and other reports.

So how come one line of evidence is all but discounted, whilst other lines, which contradict each other (eg Jesus was crucified but survived, or Jesus wasn't crucified, Judas took his place and he died) are not subject to the same critical investigation as the four?

What do we have on Jesus's death, maybe 15 lines?

And what do we have that says he didn't? Less than that.

And that has to contradict a considerable oral tradition – Paul was preaching the death and resurrection before a word was penned. The church was established in that teaching before the Gospels were written, and not by Paul alone. So to claim the gospel is wrong is to say that the entire message is wrong, which would involve the founders of the church being involved in a significant conspiracy – and by founders I don't mean just the Twelve, but innumerable others.

All in all, I'm saying that the idea that Christ didn't die, leads towards a story which is (in a very relative sense), nearly as fantastic and the truth.

Or, how was it possible to convince so many people, who were alive at the time, that someone was crucified, died, buried, and then resurrected himself?

Thomas
 
(good grief - it's not that my posts start out to be eighteen paragraphs! :p)

For me, it is just a rejection of the doctrine of vicarious atonement, as it has been presented (and discussed here at CR recently) according to the Ransom Theory.

#1) If we accept the Incarnation and Trinity, well & good, yet if these are mysteries ... then:

#2) Why shouldn't we still be asking questions about them, and seeking out the answers ... to these mysteries? - and to their significance, their importance either individually or for all of Humanity, even Planetary-wide?

Has the book been closed? Have we no more to learn on the subject(s)?


My inquiries & experience have taught & shown me that the Incarnation* of God's Son** has precedence before Christ Jesus ... and that others among of us have been Resurrected in precisely the same fashion as was Jesus of Nazareth. A good number of Christian Saints fit this latter category, including some who were even contemporaries with Jesus of Nazareth.
* sic ... I mean this in the Singular sense, this is not a typo.
** sic ... Same here.​
As for previous (Direct, Divine) Incarnations of the holders of the Office of Messiah, or World Teacher, these ever remain shrouded in Mystery. There is, first of all, the question of which cycle in Humanity's past we wish to explore. How far back would we like to refer, in our effort to check as to whether or not God had contact with His People ... and through precisely what agency?

My belief is that we find One Great Soul coming to us as:
  • Sri Krishna, in Ancient India
  • a much earlier appearance, unknown to today's religions
  • the (Piscean) Christ Who descended into the body of Jesus
  • the One Who made Himself known through St. Patrick of Ireland
  • the (Aquarian) Christ Who has already made an advance, and Who now swiftly descends
And my heart tells me that all of these are the same Great Soul, Whose origin is beyond our Earth altogether.

Another World Teacher, also well known across the world and throughout the ages, was Shakyamuni Buddha. And His prior appearances are similar; who is to say whether His Incarnations were direct, or but overshadowings ... descents. When Padmasambhava, whose name means Lotus-born, was asked how he came to be, he responded, "I simply appeared."

The Buddha's prior lives can be studied, and esoteric records indicate several appearances after Siddharta Gautama. One notable such overshadowing was that of the Tibetan Saint, Jey Rinpoche ... Tsongkhapa (Tsong-Ka-pa). Tsongkhapa, as scholars of Buddhism will know, is credited with starting the Gelugpa sect of Tibetan Buddhism, of which the Dalai Lamas have always been head ... and Jey Rimpoche's closest disciples included the first such Dalai Lama (Tenzin Gyatso is the 14th, and last) during the 15th Century.

Shakyamuni Buddha's ongoing association with Humanity, even after His Parinirvana, is preserved through the Eastern tradition of the Wesak (Vaisakha) Festival. This annual Festival, the most Holy in all the Buddhist world, has long been celebrated by followers in the East, and also by esotericists in recent decades who regard its significance as the literal provision of a Blessing from higher Spiritual spheres to all mankind.


The Divine Center which we call the Heart of God (the Son), has always streamed forth its Love and Light to the Sons of Men ... it is just that Humanity has been very, very gradually growing up, and waking up, to Its Influence. The time when we all fully Incarnate the Christ, or Christ Presence, as did Jesus, and men & women both before and afterward, is not for many long Ages to come. First, Peace on Earth must prevail ... before the Day of Perfection (Ephesians 4:13) can come to pass:
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"
The attainment of this Individual and Divinely fore-ordained Perfection ... is what Jesus the chrestos had before him, as his challenge when he entered the world via Mary's womb, same as you and I. Let us not offend our human sensibilities, and find need to invent miracles and mysteries where common-sense will suffice. If EVER there were a case, and a need, to apply Occam's Razor, I think we behold it plainly in the story of Jesus' human birth.

Yet if his very birth, since even before he chose it was a Spiritually-ordained and purposeful event ... then should we not preserve the story of the hardships, the extreme circumstances, and the humbleness - as symbolic of the Christ-Birth which must occur within every human heart? St. Paul invites us in, even as babes, that we may know something of this Mystery. Truly it is Great, even if its order is such that it is still classed among the "lesser" Mysteries. And he is telling us that although we will not grasp it, nevertheless the Greater Mysteries do exist.


Meanwhile, he asks us to focus on the lesser Mysteries, which we might grasp, even including the Spiritual Journey from unrighteousness to Righteousness, and from imperfection to Perfection. We see this Journey characterized in the Upanishad, with which St. Paul would certainly have been familiar:
From the unreal lead us to the Real, from darkness lead us to Light, and from death lead us to Immortality. -- Katha Upanishad
Christ's descent, His Incarnation into the very Heart of the Human Family most certainly occurred ~2100 years ... and this is a Coming into LIFE! How strange then, that the churches have focused almost exclusively on sorrows, suffering and death!


Bethlehem is about the Birth of Christ, the Baptism at Jordan is about Purification. Here was the message for the masses, which Christ taught via the instrument Jesus. Those who would recoil at such a notion would do well to revisit the opening of the Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi:
Lord, make me an instrument ... of Thy Peace ...

Why does it surprise us that we, who cannot yet even be perfect instruments for harmony and Peace, do not fully understand how one man can yet serve as the vessel for the still Greater, Perfect LOVE of G-d for His Son? Is it any wonder that we remain quizzical over the Nature† of One Who can create, and dissolve, the Appearance of a physical body at Will?
And this is really the correct door to Knock upon. In the East, the physical body is regarded as maya - i.e., illusion or appearance only.​
The pondering of the lesser mystery will be made the easier, imo and finding, if we remember that we are materially, the Sons of men, while Spiritually, we are simultaneously the Son of God. Really there is but one World Soul, the Anima Mundi, in expression via all the individualized Sons of men.

Together, we constitute the Son of God, spiritually speaking, with Christ as our Eldest Brother (thoroughly Biblical, this idea is) ... but His own evolution is so far in advance of both the joes AND the `Pros' (to borrow from the popular TV show of this name) ... that even an Initiated and consecreated vehicle for the `Omega Christ' was light years beyond our mental comprehension.

(1) The Beauty of Christ's Gift to us, His Service, and His Undying LOVE - poured forth upon the whole Planet every single day - is that even despite our mental inadequacies, Christ expresses accessibly for each of us an Aspect of God's Holy Trinity (I would be catholic, if at all possible) ... and (2) this LOVE, of the Father for the Son, is reproduced fully and faithfully even between the very Eldest in a Great Brotherhood of Men, and the truly meekest, or youngest Soul among us. {Would that the circuit were complete, and strands of Lighted Love also united every Brother, with every other Brother! :)}

Christ lifts our spiritual gaze, our hearts, and even our little human wills ... to the Light, Love and Purpose of the Godhead, Our Father Who Art in Heaven - and since He knows God's Will as no other member of the Human Family knows it, He is uniquely qualified to present that Will to Humanity today. Nevertheless ...

Christ works not alone, for He is aided by Those Who have gone before us ... and Whom even St. Paul knew, and witnessed, and which he sought to convey to us as clearly as humanly possible. Each Elder Brother or Teacher upon the Way has experienced within himself the Birth of Christ at Bethlehem, the purification of the lower man via `Baptism,' and also the spiritual Conversion - or Transfiguration - of the entire personal, mortal human nature ... (the fiery Saul of Tarsus becomes St. Paul, the devoted Christian Servant)

One step farther has every Teacher (much less a Master) traveled. S/he has also crossed the cavernous abyss ... which distinguishes the closer shore of human cyclic existence from the Farther Shore, where the Spiritual Journey in earnest can be said to begin.

We find, in the raft that is Jesus, Christ Jesus, Messiah or the Hellenized `Christos,' the Realization, in the truest sense, of what it means for us to give of our utmost to Serve G-d and to Love our fellow man. Our task is repeat this, not blindly and mechanically, formulaically or unoriginally, but intimately and personally, spontaneously and sincerely.

We may start with the Smile of the Buddha, the tender expression of the Lord of Love Himself. And though the rest is largely up to us, we may always remember that `Christ is never farther away than our elbow.' When everyone around us, even the friends we have gathered together on this thin raft, is losing his head and rocking the proverbial boat, we can also remember that one person, keeping calm with his wits about him, may yet keep the boat afloat. :)

I didnt say much about the death of Jesus of Nazareth upon the cross (or the question of his survival), because I don't see how that really makes much difference. If there is even one ounce of Truth in what I have tried to say - with my usual verbosity & circuitousness - then it will be apparent that focus on the death of the man Jesus, rather than the Life and Love of the Christ, is and always has been almost entirely a question of wrong emphasis.

Again, why should we seek blame, when the only way to change the mistake, is to emphasize what Really Matters (Most)! ;)

~~-~~-~~

There is so much on my personal Journey than I have neglected. I do not know what more I might say, until such time as I have grown closer to the Goals which I recognize before me. I look forward to entering that Pyramid someday, when this ashlar has been a good bit better hewn. In the meantime, I can only bear Witness to the Light which Shines Brilliantly from the capstone, and the blue-white Love which pours out to the Four Quarters of the Earth. May the Purpose of the One Life be Served. OM OM OM

~zagreus
 
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