Immigrants actually help the job market, at least in California

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Scarlet Pimpernel, Feb 28, 2007.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    If any state were to consider a fence it would be Idaho....look at the length of the border...poor Montana...and how about Minnesota the border is dotted with a thousand lakes...
     
  2. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    Scarlet, your points are absolutely valid. I was not at all trying to undermine them.

    The wolf thing in Idaho is quite frustrating. I'm not an expert on it, but I know a little bit. After nurturing and nursing the wolf population back from endangered status, there is public pressure from Elk hunters and others to reverse the program. That is, start killing wolves.

    You know, because the wolves are barbaric, vicious animals and responsible for thinning the Elk herds.

    There is a wolf sanctuary in Idaho (I forget the name of the town where it's located) that is, I believe, suffering from funding difficulties. The wolves in general and in particular the wolves at that sanctuary are very much respected and loved by the Nez Perce Indians.

    A topic for another thread, I know. Those interested in the issue can look into the following articles/websites:

    Wolf Education Research Center
    Nez Perce Oppose Idaho Wolf Killing Plan | Politics | New West Network
    Wolf Management
     
  3. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel demned elusive

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    Thanks. I knew you weren't. Sorry if it sounded like I thought that. :)
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lou Dobbs of CNN would like to put in his two cents....

    NEW YORK (CNN) -- This new Congress was supposed to be different. Instead, it is being led by a gaggle of partisan hacks pandering to the same special interests and corporate masters as the previous Republican-led Congress.

    more...Dobbs: Democratic hacks embrace lunacy of amnesty
     
  5. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    Is immigration the free choice of the immigrant, and NOT the American? For the people here convincing others that all immigration is good, both the legal and the illegal, that it is needed and wonderful for the economy and everyone... what is the goal exactly? Lets say that I were to believe that immigration into the USA was somehow restrictive or unfriendly, are we suggesting that immigration law has no place in America? It sounds like some agree that any immigration law is just for a racially or economically biased America to keep the poor out. So should Americans have NO vote then on the laws governing their border to their country? Perhaps I spoke for the law too soon, but I think it is something profound to make immigration solely the choice of the immigrant. Maybe there should be a vote to jettison these immigration laws? I feel strongly that more Americans than the few in DC should have the ratifying vote. Only when rightfully given the responsibility for their border do many Americans truly educate themselves to the problem. Otherwise it will fester.

    On a different note, while the Texan / Californian farmers want the cheap workers, foreign countries do not like that the USA subsidizes farming. Something seems wrong there.
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I have a friend who is now working in Arizona...at the border. She works for a group who goes into Mexico and warns people of the dangers of the desert, and of the coyotes who will take them across. They warn them, but at the same time instructs them, because they know they will cross.

    They then patrol the desert on the American side to find those lost, dehydrated and starving, and insure they live. I haven't spoke to her since she left, I've only heard word from her mother. I don't know how they work with authorities or the minutemen, I think theirs is mainly a humanitarian mission. She's young, energetic, passionate, I'm hoping this builds her and doesn't taint her.
     
  7. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    I am starting to see the American farmer who takes in illegal immigrants as the real criminal. It is him who is spreading the word through the Mexicans to tell them to disobey American law and to come on over. There is disinformation between the US government and the US criminal business. I am sure these farmers don't mind putting a little money towards facilitating their arrival. You know there is a human traffic market going on there. So my vote would be to enforce a $250,000 fine per illegal immigrant found on any premise. Put the criminal farmer out of business if he can't learn to obey the law like his neighbors. Make it a felony and apply small jail sentences. If there are immigrants settled in due to lax standards, then I think the immigration standards need to be lowered temporarily... maybe..., but I suggest they need to go through some sort of process to become citizens like everyone else. I suggest that it is not a solution to make iniquity or lawlessness the standard here, and the only valid law is the one voted on and agreed to by the people. Illegal immigration should be brought to a stop.

    Who needs a fence? I think this can be controlled through the criminal businesses who hire the illegal immigrants. They don't get it. How about giant billboards informing illegal immigrants of the penalty, in Spanish? Skip the fence... just inform them of the consequences on the way in and give them contact information to enter legally. I would prefer to pay those who want to immigrate and even help them settle in. Make it easy to become a citizen... all are welcome, but if you don't go through the law then there will be a stiff penalty... most especially for the American farmer or construction business. That is my vote.
     
  8. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    I'd like to zoom out a bit. One approach in thinking about this is as the one issue that it is: that is, one of immigration from south of the border into the United States of America. We can further zoom in on that one issue and split it into the problem of "legal" vs "illegal." And we can simplify the situation by taking the apparently moral and legal high ground:

    legal immigration=good
    illegal immigration=bad

    What is really going on, though? Can we realistically isolate the "immigration issue," or is it simply a symptom of larger societal ills? Global ills, if you will? But wait. We are talking about America, not global ills. Right. And America is the very proud "leader of the free world."

    Now I am not trying to distract people with dodgy "debating tactics." Yet I do feel strongly that until we look at this one issue as a symptom of the sickness that has set in on the entire planet, we are just playing another shell-game.

    Iniquity, now there's a word. Here's the defintion that I found:

    noun​
    1. gross injustice or wickedness. ​

    2. a violation of right or duty; wicked act; sin. ​
    Who is responsible? Aren't we all? We all live in the world together, after all. I find it difficult to point my white, entitled, priveleged finger down south and tell "those people" "down there" to stay put. To work at it where they at, it'll come together.

    Okay, okay. And so we think about that some and we come to a point where we begin to ask questions of ourselves and think that maybe some laws need to be relaxed, some things shuffled around, and some very stiff punishments levied on farmers who hire "illegals."

    I have a problem with that, too, though, I guess, because who the hell is going to benefit from imposing stiff fines on these farmers? If we put on our happy democracy mask, we can give the thumbs up to the federal government and assume that they will funnell those collected fines into something productive.

    And if a person feels that bombing and occupying other countries while maintaining a social infrastructure of fear and cheap goods, cheap processed food, and cheap shopping mall morals is productive, well then I guess it's all good.

    But I know, I stepped away from the issue at hand, immigration.

    Or did I? To me, it's all connected, it's all part of an entrenched, insidious power structure designed to satisfy citizens in the middle by filling them with access to hamburgers, pasta, magazines, new gadgets, and bumper stickers. The buzzing message behind all of these commodities is: "Freedom is great, ain't it? We're the bestest!!"

    But this isn't freedom. These are just commodities.

    To turn our attention back to others, though:

    south of the U.S. border (because I have learned that this isn't just about "Mexicans," there are other ethnicities and countries "south of the border"), huge communities of people are suffering. To attempt to mediate this, some of them are willing to put their asses on the line and smuggle themselves across a border. Some also do this legally.​
    on a December morning in 1984 in Bhopal, India, a U.S. corporation went horribly wrong and has yet to take accountability for the ongoing loss of life and hellish conditions suffered by the people there. Why does bitter, silly Pathless bring this up? Because he is a party-pooper? Naw, y'all. It's just that it happened, y'know, and because it is a grossly inhumane, striking example of the disregard for humanity and rape--yes, rape--of the planet that is going on so that Americans and other "civilized" countries can wipe with 2-ply cotton puffy toilet paper, so that we can go on touristy vacations in Costa Rica and Kenya, so that we can tune into our favorite soaps and reality TV shows day after unsatisfying day.​
    Immigration law? What?


    small
    cookies.
     
  9. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    Pathless, to me that was another zoom in. A zoom into some generalizations encompassing a race, ethnicity, or large body of people. I agree with you those are injust generalizations, but I think in a different way. Let me explore an exercise of law with you. Tell me where I go wrong and where you disagree:

    I view that LAW is an agreement between people, and I wish to make an agreement with you...
    Do you agree that I am wrong if I hold you to a different set of standards than I do myself?
    Do you agree that I should NOT judge you by your skin color?
    Do you agree that I should NOT condemn you if your friends or neighbors commits a crime?
    Do you agree that if I am dishonest, and break into your family's home to steal, that I should at least be apprehended, judged, and rebuked?
    Do you agree that if I senselessly murder people and will not change, that I should at least be punished or condemned?
    Do you agree that if I am a liar telling lies that cause harm, and will not confess or repent, that I should be liable?
    Do you agree that I am a hypocrite if I hold you to a different set of standards than I do myself?

    I think that is a crude example of law. I seek to resolve conflicts by agreement... not that there is any conflict between you and I, but just to demonstrate what I consider LAW is. Do you seek to find a way to agree... or do you seek iniquity?
     
  10. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, cyberpi? :confused:

    I don't know whether to answer those questions with more questions or what. Here's what I see when I look at the questions you would like me to answer:

    LAW LAW LAW
    either/or
    with me or against me?
    BUT LAW!!!!
    I MEAN LAW!
    You could go to jail, or hell.
    should not
    Should not
    Should NOT!
    wrong wrong wrong
    standards LAW standards
    black/white
    dichotomoy
    me/you
    right/wrong
    good/bad

    I don't know, it all sounds so intimidating and medieval. Let me go get my sword and law codex. ​

    Oh, wait. I don't have those things. But I do have a pocket knife. And a book of poetry. Ooooooh, and a pencil, and some watercolors, and music... so much music.​

    Oh, alright, I'm wandering way off topic. Pretty soon I'll just log off and go about my spicy life.​

    I'll answer your questions in this way: I don't believe that laws are the standard that we should be holding our humanity up to. Laws are cold, dead things. Sometimes they might serve a purpose. They are also often corrupted, abused, and even disregarded when it is in the interest of those in power.​

    I believe in the power of the human heart. The soul of humanity could bathe this planet in more than electric light. We could all be swimming in soul light and Love. If there is a law, it is to love. Love each other. We must love. Love your sister, your mother, your brother, your father. Love the animals, the plants, the crusty mud on the bottom of your shoe. The best laws are the ones written in our human hearts, not the inked ones on paper, so often tossed aside out of convenience or special interest, so often revised. These laws of ours, the true ones that we feel with the fiber of our spirits, they're quirky, colorful, variable, individualized, flowing, and can't be written down. They are beautiful, benevolent, and the expressions of goddesses and gods.​

    I do look forward to our discussion here. You challenge me to think and refine my feelings, shape them into words. And no matter how pissy I might get with you, I appreciate being challenged to articulate my position and make critical arguments. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much longer I am going to find this fun, challenging, and amusing. I guess I don't mind presenting my opinion to you from different angles, but I don't so much want to end up repeating myself. That just gets boring.​

    Peace to you and many happy returns on your search for Church,
    Pathless​
     
  11. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    I'll answer this one, too. If we can't agree, we can't agree, and that's what happens. It doesn't make our perspectives less true or valid when we have a hard time seeing where the other is coming from. I mean, your perspective may look totally skewed from where I stand, but it makes sense to you. Yet I don't feel that either of us should have to go out of our way to agree with the other to avoid feeling like we are some type of depraved iniquitor (iniquitor? What is the noun form of iniquity?).

    And maybe the more we discuss this, the more we'll get to know each other, and then we can poke fun at each other because each one of us is convinced that the other's viewpoint is just so... weird.

    Peace,
    Pathless
     
  12. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    duplicate message deleted.

    /resume thread

    :D
     
  13. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel demned elusive

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    cyberpi, I haven't seen anyone making these points. In fact, I very clearly said just the opposite. The points I have been gleaning from people's posts, my own included, is that immigration policy in the US seems to be unfairly focused on our Mexican border, and that perhaps having as many Hispanic immigrants as we do is not such a negative thing as the government would have us believe, and that a reconsideration of official immigration policies would seem to be in order.

    You do realize, don't you, that tourism falls under the auspices of the Citizenship and Immigration Services? Have you ever seen how simple tourists are treated at the gates? They only want to be here a few weeks - imagine how the people who want to come live here are treated. I think the effort and money spent in keeping them out and being rude to tourists (after all, this is their first taste of America - don't we want it to be a pleasant one?) could be better spent elsewhere - like say, dealing with illegal immigration from Mexico.

    I haven't seen anyone bring up the point that immigration to the US works on a quota system, based on what part of the world the immigrant comes from and how beneficial their field of employment is seen as being. Is it possible that the amount of field workers farmers actually need doesn't gel with the amount of field workers allowed in? Could this be a cause of the high number of illegal field workers? Also, pop over to the website of the CIS and take a look at Chapter 22 of the Adjudicator's Field Manual. Given the sheer amount of paperwork involved, and the well-known speed with which government bodies get to work, I would guess that by the time a farmer got DOL approval for every single laborer on his ranch, the strawberries would have turned to mulch in the fields. I would guess the process needs to be easier.
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Oh you learn how to act at borders...Canadian or Mexican (I've not traveled out of North America) It doesn't matter how long I'm going for...I always say the same thing...We are traveling...but just going over for the day. You tell them you are headed to Mexico City...you get the run around...or try telling Canada you are headed up the AlCan to Fairbanks...you'll get your credit card checked, your bank account, how much cash do you have on hand, what is the condition of your car, tires.... The issues at the border teach us to lie... I imagine it is no different for others..
     
  15. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    I submit that it is not the decision of the people of the USA that the Southern border is being unequally bombarded. The greatest amount of immigration, both legal and illegal is from Mexico. That is not the choice of the people of the USA. If Canada was bombarding the border, then the problem would be there. The USA does not choose the border that gets bombarded.

    You lost me here... the USA has the highest net immigration of any country, even counting Europe as one country. If you are passing on generalizations that Americans are rude to foreigners, and discouraging them, whether that is true I submit it is a weak argument for illegal immigration, or for immigration without law. As an extreme example, if the people of the USA held a vote and collectively decided that nobody is going to cross any border, then I submit they have a right to close the borders and deny ALL immigration into the USA. If the people decide that only the Southern border will be permanently sealed, then that is their decision. As the other extreme example, if the people of the USA held a vote and collectively decided that the borders should be open to everyone, then I submit they have a right to open the borders and accept all immigration into the USA.

    That is what I like to see... I'd like to hear what people think immigration law is supposed to look like. Should there be any selectivity? Just what requirements should be met of a person seeking entry?
     
  16. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel demned elusive

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    No, buddy, I ain't doing anything of the sort. I am saying that many of my European friends have been screamed - yes, screamed at by the passport authorities when trying to enter the US on vacation. I haven't said anything about Americans in general, I have only been speaking of the passport authorities as far as this point is concerned. And as far as your statement that people know how to get around passport authorities, it's a little difficult to claim that you're only going for a day when you have to spend weeks in advance filling out paperwork, including listing exactly how long you plan to stay and where you will be staying in order to get a visa so you can enter the US in the first place.
    And I certainly have never tried to use this example to promote illegal immigration. Please go back and read what I've written and stop putting words in my mouth.

    Wait - you've said you're just going to Mexico for the day when really you were planning to go to Mexico City? Um, is that legal?
     
  17. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    cyberpi--

    I understand the points you are making. I live in the middle of the stormy immigration issue in Texas. I can't even comment much on this thread because the issue is so very close to home for me.

    But I know for sure that you are a listener.

    Listen to Scarlet. She knows of what she speaks . I know what she is talking about. I have seen it.

    No, I am not an illegal immigrant. But I do see both sides. And it is so close that it blurs my vision.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  18. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel demned elusive

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    cyberpi - I apologize for my final comment up there. I read the thread too quickly, but on going back over it I see the comments about getting around border patrol were from wil, not you.
     
  19. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Well, then, wil--head's up! :)

    Sorry cyberpi--maybe I am not as good at listening as you are. :)

    Anyhoo--someone should listen to Scarlet, I'm tellin' ya! :)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  20. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Look, businesses don't want to pay what it would cost to attract citizens to their jobs. We hear all this stuff about how great the "market" is. How "market forces" will control. But big business wants an out from market forces when it comes to employee's pay. So they're trying to figure out how they can continue to pay less than a "market" wage. I'm not against immigration. Make them all citizens, that way we don't have a permanent underclass of workers undermining the wages of the working class.

    Chris
     

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