Why Christians should not accept Reincarnation: Pt 1

Thomas

So it goes ...
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Matthew 25:34:
"... Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

Luke 6:47-48:
"Every one that cometh to me and heareth my words and doth them, I
will shew you to whom he is like. He is like to a man building a house, who digged deep and laid the foundation upon a rock. And when a flood came, the stream beat vehemently upon that house: and it could not shake it: for it was founded on a rock."

Ephesians 1:4:
"As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity."

Revelations 17:8:
"And the inhabitants on the earth (whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) shall wonder, seeing the beast that was and is not."

+++

If indeed, as Ephesians suggests, 'we' are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, then if 'you' live multiple lives ... which 'you' resurrects?

Certainly not all of 'you' ... this would create two simultaneous instances of the same thing, which Aquinas has demonstrated is not 'good'. Also, if 'you' are perfected, how many perfects can there be?

I contend, only one.

+++

The argument then becomes that the "I" of me is ephemeral, and what reincarnates, and what resurrects, is some substrate upon which the perception of "I" grows or grafts ... but then we stumble on the same logic again ... if the resurrecting "I" is not a particular instance of "I", then neither is it, by the same rule, any instance of "I" ... so all that we associate with "I" does not reincarnate at all ... only the principle of human life as such ... in which case only one instance of human life need resurrect, more than one being needless repetition, and again a metaphysical impossibility, being two simultaneous instances of the same thing...

... Alongside this ... the whole Mystical Tradition that speaks of Divine Union would have to be discarded ... even the absolute apophatism of a Meister Eckhart or a Catherine of Siena, for all it's Zen flavour ... does not go so far ... and of course the whole Doctrine of Trinity and Incarnation is undermined.

+++

Comment and commentaries from Patristics can be found here:
Reincarnation

Thomas
Thomas
 
Revelations 3:12 makes this whole matter clear enough, and the often-cited incident between Christ and the Apostles concerning John the Baptist/Elijah should speak clearly, for those ready & willing to exercise discernment.

But I think it says a whole lot more about us ... when we feel that we must take it upon ourself to advise others as to what they should, or should not believe, or accept.

Not that the Catholic Church doesn't have a long tradition, or history of doing just this ... but what's the matter? Afraid to let people think for themselves, and discover Truth on their own (terms)?

Of course, all too easly to come and beat the drum where we know others will not fail to join the lockstep procession ...

And if, over the edge we find ourself toppling ... what of the steady stream of lemmings that trickle behind? :(

No, if you don't want to read the very plain statements in Rev 3:12 which survived the excising knives of the crafty & clever .... you need only turn, and witness the hand, the signature, the direct evidence in Nature itself.

ALL ELSE occurs in cycles - as we see from the grandest scale (cosmology, astronomy), down to the smallest (the opening of the flowers, season after season ... the fall of the leaves, at winter).

And WE are supposed to be an exception? Ah yes, we can prove anything we like - with that magic book of yours. But I say again, why so determined? Why so afraid? :eek:

~andrew
 
Hi,

I do not know what is going to happen to "me" when I die and nor does anyone else. I can imagine the Bible, rather like statistics can be used to support or refute a lot of things.

s.

"There are several verses that some claim support reincarnation:

[edit] Jeremiah 1:4–5

The 'Word' came to Jeremiah, and said "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." This verse has been used by Traditional Christians as evidence that God has foreknowledge of persons and events — that is not limited by time and space. Christians who believe in reincarnation may see this verse as evidence ability to "know" a person throughout a variety of reincarnated lifetimes.

[edit] Elijah became John the Baptist

Jewish priests were sent to ask John the Baptist, "Art thou Elijah?" (John, 1:21), which is seen as supporting the conception that Jewish priests believed in the theory of reincarnation. Christ said of John the Baptist "this is Elijah." (Matthew 11:14.) Later on, upon the Mount of Transfiguration, the Christ said, "Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed… Then the disciples understood that He spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:12,13). This idea of reincarnation is perhaps a little different from the commonly viewed notion of what reincarnation means. In the second chapter of II Kings, Elijah does not die, but rather is called up into heaven while yet alive. Mainstream Christian opinion would interpret these passages as referring to the role that John played in the spiritual life of first-century Jews, rather than his personal identity being that of Elijah.
Actually, those passages refer not only to the 'role' that John played but also to the 'office', assignment, or the commission that he was given by God. In this regard, John was to serve the same purpose that Elijah served. Just as Elijah was considered instrumental in serving as a guide to lead the Israelites back to the worship that God required of his covenant people under the Law of Moses, so John was to act in a similar capacity, leading the first-century Jews to the Messiah. In this way John 'was' Elijah, as mentioned in Matthew's account of Jesus' statement at Matthew 11:14.

[edit] Matthew 5:25–26

"Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny." Supporters of reincarnation might say that Jesus is referring to the cycle of death and rebirth that continues until all negative karma is met.

[edit] Matthew 11:14–15

Jesus is recorded as saying, "and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15Let anyone with ears listen!". Most traditional Christians prefer to interpret this verse only in a loose fashion to mean that John was only like Elijah. For those Christians who advocate a belief in reincarnation, this verse is interpreted more strictly as meaning exactly what it says, namely that John the Baptist is/was Elijah the prophet himself, which in this strictly interpreted context could only mean that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. One related consideration that Christian advocates of reincarnation address concerning the fact that John 1:19–21 appears to contravene Matthew 11:14, denying that John the Baptist is/was Elijah reincarnated, this view ignoring the idea that John the Baptist did not know that he was Elijah. Christian advocates of reincarnation propose that this apparent Biblical contravention in John of what is stated in Matthew may have been a later editorial insertion by doctrinal purists. These types of corrective insertions in John, contravening the first three Gospels, appear to them to have also been added in many other instances within John as well, the gospel of John generally being agreed by Liberals adherent to Higher Criticism to have been written several years after Matthew.

[edit] Matthew 11:25–26

"At that time Jesus said, ‘I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will". Some supporters of reincarnation might say that that the infant has a knowledge of its spiritual nature and has not yet forgotten its past lives, because the ego, that which separates humans from God, has not yet formed.

[edit] Matthew 17:11–13

"He replied, ‘Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things; 12but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer at their hands.’ 13Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist." Another reference by Jesus that equates John the Baptist with Elijah.

[edit] Matthew 26:52

"Then Jesus said to him [Peter], "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword". It seems fairly probable that Jesus knows that not everyone who kills another is murdered in this life; however, supporters of reincarnation might say that it refers to the negative karma such an individual incurs that has to be satisfied in another life.

[edit] Mark 9:11–13

"Then they asked him, ‘Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ 12He said to them, ‘Elijah is indeed coming first to restore all things. How then is it written about the Son of Man, that he is to go through many sufferings and be treated with contempt? 13But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written about him'." Supporters of reincarnation might take this passage to mean that the reincarnation of Elijah (i.e. John the Baptist) was beheaded. They might also say that Elijah had followers of Baal killed, so this might be an example of payment for negative karma.

[edit] Luke 1:17

"With the spirit and power of Elijah he [John the Baptist] will go before him, to turn the hearts of parents to their children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord'." Supporters of reincarnation might say that spirit and power is the definition of reincarnation: an individual's spirit, with all its developed abilities etc. (i.e. power), inhabits the body physical.

[edit] John 3:1–10

"Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus by night and said to him, ‘Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God.’ 3Jesus answered him, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.’ 4Nicodemus said to him, ‘How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?’ 5Jesus answered, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not be astonished that I said to you, “You must be born from above.” 8The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.’ 9Nicodemus said to him, ‘How can these things be?’ 10Jesus answered him, ‘Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?" According to the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, the Pharisees believed in the reincarnation of good souls. Supporters of reincarnation might say that Jesus is surprised that this leader of Pharisees seems ignorant of the process of reincarnation. They might also say that being born of water is possibly a reference to normal Earthly birth, and that being born of the spirit is a reference to virginal birth (being born from above); consequently, they might say that Jesus is implying that an individual must be developed (i.e. their souls through reincarnation) to the point whereupon virgin birth (being born from above) is possible, and then they would be purified enough to to go to Heaven. Supporters of reincarnation might also say that one grows to Heaven, rather than goes to Heaven.

[edit] John 9:1–3

The disciples observe a man who was born blind, and inquire of Jesus whether the man himself or his parents sinned, that he was born blind. Some interpret this question to imply that the man would have had some opportunity to sin prior to birth, which at least presupposes the pre-existence of the soul in a situation where there was free will and the ability to commit sin. Jesus replies that in this case neither the man nor his parents sinned, but he does not rebuke the disciples in any way for their belief that it would have been possible for the man to sin prior to birth. This can be and has been interpreted in many ways.

[edit] Galatians 6:7

"Whatever one sows, that he will also reap". Some feel that this agrees with the idea of enforced karma, a basic tenet of some other religions that hold the belief in reincarnation; however it also agrees with the concept of divine justice, and of each person being judged fairly, a central tenet of Christianity. The subsequent verses seem to imply that a certain amount of time may pass before a just person reaps their true reward: "at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up". However there is no indication that this time might span more than one lifetime. In any case, those who attempt to use this verse to prove that the Bible endorses the concept of karma suffer the same burden as those who attempt to use Hebrews 9:27 to disprove reincarnation. It is problematic because, by itself, it does not prove reincarnation and is only a single verse. The fact that it was written by the Apostle Paul, and not a saying of Jesus, may also influence Christians who give more weight to Jesus' teachings than to Paul's."

Bible and reincarnation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Not that the Catholic Church doesn't have a long tradition, or history of doing just this ... but what's the matter? Afraid to let people think for themselves, and discover Truth on their own (terms)?

Sorry but just cause you think something to be true does not make it true.
 
What in the world? Do you Liberal Christian read your bibles? I mean seriously. I saw someone said something about Elijah becoming John the Baptise. How in the world did you get that? Is that what scripture said? Is that what John the Baptise said? Surely, the answer is no. There is no such teaching of reincarnation in the Bible. To get that, you'd have to do some major twisting and eisegeting of scripture to force such an obvious unscriptural teaching. "It is appointed once for a person to live and then comes the judgement."
 
"Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother�s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," (Luke 1:13-17)

Jesus pointed to John the Baptist as a type of fulfillment of Elijah's coming but he was not a reincarnation.
Anyone can see this is they check out Matthew, 2Kings, Mal, John.
Ask for discernment from the holy spirit the bible tells you carnal men can not understand spiritual things.
 
Silas said:
What in the world? Do you Liberal Christian read your bibles?

Another one for your notes, dear Silas.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Revelations 3:12 makes this whole matter clear enough, and the often-cited incident between Christ and the Apostles concerning John the Baptist/Elijah should speak clearly, for those ready & willing to exercise discernment.

Rev 3:12 said:
11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

I am surprised to see you pick this quote in support of reincarnation. Likewise referencing John the Baptist/Elijah. These are the same examples used by Baha'is to support the idea that Christ reurned in Baha'u'llah, specifically, that it is not reincarnation but a return of a type or qualities. Maybe I don't really know what reincarnation is. Anyway, the Revelation quote is meant to call to mind 1) the passage in Isaiah (chapter 62) where the relationship between Israel and God is like a marriage, and the nation of Israel (the bride) takes on on new name and 2) transformation, such as when Jacob fought with the angel on the riverbank and overcame, and rec'd the new name of Israel. So, in neither case is it reincarnation into another life, except in the metaphorical sense that we have a new life and a new name when we are in relationship with God. It's about now.

But I think it says a whole lot more about us ... when we feel that we must take it upon ourself to advise others as to what they should, or should not believe, or accept.
No one has suggested, much less forced, anyone to believe anything. The doctrines of the church, which Thomas has pointed out elsewhere, evolve to meet the questions and challenges of the day. You can accept or reject the wisdom as you see fit. Reject enough of it and you've pretty much found that you don't really trust the source of that wisdom and thus have excluded yourself from that body, not the other way around. *shrug*

Not that the Catholic Church doesn't have a long tradition, or history of doing just this ... but what's the matter? Afraid to let people think for themselves, and discover Truth on their own (terms)?
See above. BTW, this seems to be an unnecessarily rude point to make in this forum.

Of course, all too easly to come and beat the drum where we know others will not fail to join the lockstep procession ...
But you seem to think we should step to your drum...why?

And why use inflammatory language like "lockstep procession," implying that people who trust the wisdom of their Body are no longer thinking or being critical? There are many beats, and many dances that can be done to the same beat. Don't presume that others walk in lockstep when what we might be doing is dancing.

And if, over the edge we find ourself toppling ... what of the steady stream of lemmings that trickle behind? :(
More judgment, more inflammatory language. Please Andrew, what is the point of coming in here and making such statements? Am I a lemming? Is Thomas? Dor? Have you not seen quite a lot of evidence of very non-lemming like behavior on this forum alone? Where are these mindless pods that form your experience of Christian beleif?

No, if you don't want to read the very plain statements in Rev 3:12 which survived the excising knives of the crafty & clever .... you need only turn, and witness the hand, the signature, the direct evidence in Nature itself.
I think there is very little in Revelation that can be called "very plain." Apocalyptic writing is the most exalted and most metaphorical of all scripture. And please, what is the basis of saying that it has 'survived the excising knives.' This is a baseless accusation of intentional fraud and or forgery...evidence please.

Evidence in Nature???? Like the reutrn of Spring? Sure, it works great in metaphor. If you have evidence of physical reincarnations in nature, I'd be intereted in hearing it.

ALL ELSE occurs in cycles - as we see from the grandest scale (cosmology, astronomy), down to the smallest (the opening of the flowers, season after season ... the fall of the leaves, at winter).
Great metaphor. So, how does this translate into reincarnation of human souls (or identities or karmic packages or what have you? This Spring does not have to be warm to make up for last Spring being cold, does it?).

And WE are supposed to be an exception? Ah yes, we can prove anything we like - with that magic book of yours. But I say again, why so determined? Why so afraid? :eek:

~andrew

Calling the Bible a magic book is rude and uncalled for. No one is here to tell you what you should beleive...it's a discussion about the basis of Christian rejection of the idea of reincarnation. You don't agree, that's fine. But why, as a professed non-Christian, come in here and berate Christians for this?

Why are you determined to do this?

Why are you challenged by this?

I generally think your POV is interesting to think about Andrew, but I just don't understand this kind of a post, or why you think it's appropriate here.


yours,
luna

Isaiah 62

2 The nations will see your vindication,
and all kings your glory;
you will be called by a new name
that the mouth of the LORD will bestow.

3 You will be a crown of splendor in the LORD's hand,
a royal diadem in the hand of your God.

4 No longer will they call you Deserted,
or name your land Desolate.
But you will be called Hephzibah, [a]
and your land Beulah ;
for the LORD will take delight in you,
and your land will be married.

5 As a young man marries a young woman,
so will your Builder marry you;
as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride,
so will your God rejoice over you.
 
Hello everyone...

I find it to be very interesting when Bible verses are hurled and refuted as verifiable evidence of the existence of ancient wisdom and hidden machinations. The oldest parts of the Bible reflect knowledge back to about 3,500 years, although it is clear that folk wisdom and tradition forms the foundation for many of the stories. This all goes back to neolithic times. And besides, Bible stories are about desert people, and mostly we aren't.

But still it would be questionable, in the light of today's scientific knowledge, to say that it reflects truth back to the foundations of the world. Each culture on the earth remembers a valid version of the stories of the foundation of the world that suits their needs just fine, but not everyone's collectively. And now all of the boundaries between the cultures of the world are being crossed. We seek oneness. We need contemporary stories that address these issues, not the continuing regurgitation of old stories in cheap disguises.

We could all make the argument that everything that happens here is and has always has been cyclical back to the foundations of the world. I pointed out to wil in a post elswhere here that this may be true to an extent, but today we are, as a species, engendering changes that will transcend the effect of naturally cyclical changes to the planet in the future.

But IMHO differing cultures were at one time consciously placed in certain locales around the world unbeknownst to each other to work wonders over their times collectively through spiritual direction. That's the whole point of places like this...and of myths, books, films, television, the internet, etc. which are really mediums of information exchange among us.

In realistic terms, we should be asking rather how this was done ? What is the circle of life ? Why do we not accept some of our brothers and sisters in many ways even though virtually all sacred writings admonish us to do so. Does G-d really have the best time/space shifting devices ?

This all has more to do with the establishment and maintainence of dynamical complex systems which is what G-d originally created on Earth, what we are, and what everything we create potentially is. If we keep on insisting to do it into the future in the ways that we are now without beginning to think in these ways, the natural earth will be destroyed, and be replaced by something less beautiful, less hospitable, less supportive of life, more mechanical, more automated, more predictable, and very boring except for some digital simulations. Rent the film, The Truman Show, if you want an example of a contemporary story that gets it right.

I can see this happening more and more every day as I watch the world pass me by. Looking into the future, as my profession trained me to do on a daily basis, I now wonder if I really want to be here 20 years from today...or, perhaps more importantly, should I ?

It still has yet to prove to me that a viable future for life as we know it will continue into the future for us all.

Sorry for the rant, but it was just time.

flow....:eek:
 
This is one of those areas where experiences don't always mesh with "orthodox theology." There's quite a bit of impressive anecdotal case studies of apparent recall of prior lives. Is that "Christian?" It is what it is, though can shake up certain traditional notions of Christian theology & so that possiblity seems threatening to some. But whether we only go around once or not, (I'll never know-as if I return to this plane guess it will seem new to me again due to apparent "divine forgetfulness";) :D ), I've never seen what difference a belief or disbelief in it makes in how one lives one's life. take care, earl
 
Hebrews 9:24-28.

"For Jesus is not entered into the Holies made with hands, the patterns of the true: but into Heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the Holies every year with the blood of others: For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world. But now once, at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment: So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many. The second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation."
(my emphasis)

Thomas
 
Hi Earl -

Just a thought, but there would have to be all manner of psychic phenomena to rule out before reincarnation provides the 'only' answer.

I was warned to avoid hypnotism as it engages, or rather disengages, certain protective aspects of the psyche ... the therapist (or performer, or whoever) utilises the persons susceptibility and suggestibility ... but I would argue the person is 'open' and 'accepting' in more ways than we are aware of.

Likewise I have seen clairvoyants 'pick up' on the thoughts of another, I have done it myself in Tarot readings (I described someone's nature using the analogy of a walled garden ... afterwards she told me I had pretty well described the garden of her house, which she bought because she always wanted a walled garden) ... in a different circumstance I could offer that description as evidence of my having lived in that house ...

Thomas
 
Wil ... you are getting to be a habit!

A good point. As He was without sin the first time, I shall have to think about/search out that one ...

Thomas
 
The error is in seeing things disappear and assuming that they are gone.
The body is the pen:

Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

How can that be you ask? When paper is burned and its particles are spread across the world, you can no longer see the words on the paper, and one strand can no longer effect the other, but the paper is still in this world in exact detail. Still connected. Everything that transpired with it at all times has been recorded, physically. History is lost to man but it is not lost to this Universe. Every pico-second is being perfectly recorded. If you want your body back... at which age do you want it? Right before death? As a pooping toddler? An adolescent teenager? Before you had kids? After? All are available.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Mark 13:31) (Luke 21:33)

That is a powerful statement. Something transcends and is meta-something to heaven, let alone earth.
 
Hi Earl -

Just a thought, but there would have to be all manner of psychic phenomena to rule out before reincarnation provides the 'only' answer.

I was warned to avoid hypnotism as it engages, or rather disengages, certain protective aspects of the psyche ... the therapist (or performer, or whoever) utilises the persons susceptibility and suggestibility ... but I would argue the person is 'open' and 'accepting' in more ways than we are aware of.

Likewise I have seen clairvoyants 'pick up' on the thoughts of another, I have done it myself in Tarot readings (I described someone's nature using the analogy of a walled garden ... afterwards she told me I had pretty well described the garden of her house, which she bought because she always wanted a walled garden) ... in a different circumstance I could offer that description as evidence of my having lived in that house ...

Thomas
What I was referring to by anecdotal studies, Thomas, were those well researched cases where the individual's apparent recall of a prior life includes personal/historical info that later proves quite accurate via later research that the individual at the time of recall would have had no logically explained access to. Univ. of Virginia has folks that have accumulated quite a bit of these "stories." Ian Stevenson started that research program there. earl
 
I should probably explain something: Reincarnation versus resurrection... I tend to see the two as the same concept, coming or going. You can't have one without the other:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
I've never seen what difference a belief or disbelief in it makes in how one lives one's life. take care, earl

I accept this observation earl...can't say I've asked enough people about it to have any actual data...but I accept it as a reasonable premise.

And there is no arguing with personal experience, although Thomas is right to caution that what we think we may have experienced...may not actually be what we think it is (does that make sense?). Anyway, whether those who have experienced past lives have really glimpsed prior lives, or if it is something else altogether, we can't know. If they believe it...they believe it.

But I think it does have an impact on religious worldview. The Christian worldview of resurrection evolved over these 2000 years is in conflict with reincarnation (to the extent that we think we can understand either!). They are really two different ideas and it does not make sense to mix and match karma-reincarnation with grace-resurrection. I do believe that when we go up above the doctrine to where truth really lives, they are both ways to the same unity. But down here where the air is less rare, fewer parts can be interchanged without weakening the structure of the ladder.

2 rather convoluted c,
luna
 
Well lunamoth, the way karma-rebirth and resurrection-grace are typically presented, they seem contradictory-& would be by traditional Christian theology. Though as I shared of my personal views in a thread I entitled, "Alternative Christian Theology" in the liberal Christian forum, it does not necessarily, (depending on how one looks at it). But as to Ian Stevenson & what he was getting at, thought I'd post a link to a review of a 2003 book of his in the American Journal of Psychiatry, (trust me that folks in that field generally are skeptical re such things:) ).
European Cases of the Reincarnation Type -- CADORET 162 (4): 823 -- Am J Psychiatry
He had typically studied children for the reasons this review discusses &, as I've mentioned in different threads here over time, young children seem more inclined to manifest a variety of psychic phenomena than us older & set in our way folk.:) Also just visited the website of that U. of Virginia research program I'd mentioned & saw it noted he passed away just 3 weeks ago. Wonder if we'll be hearing from him again.:D earl
 
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