is it good that god requires belief in it/praise

shadowman

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why does it matter what we believe. why does god care about belief. and even if he does, why does he get so mad at disbelief.

jesus seems like a nice fella until you dont trust him

people think they have good fortunes because they trust the lord.

is it trustworthy on gods point to screw us over if we dont believe in him?

is god just trying to prove to us that we are hopeless without him.

is that the whole point of christianity?

even if he is trying to show us that we need him in our life, i still dont get that we have to be punished for not understanding that we need him in our life.

that seems to be what jesus does... he says: "you dont want me?" fine you will be cast down etc etc...

is it reasonable to be upset that god punishes people that dont want to go along with him? or should it be obvious that belief in a god and compliance with his will is what we should do if we want peace?

why do many people talk about making peace with god.

why are we in a position to have to make peace with him in the first place.

why is god always at war with us, or we at war with god/ it just seems like a ploy to make humans feel like something is wrong with them that their reasoning cant solve.

I think humans problems can be solved, and they can be solved without a belief in a mystery god. but im worried about what god might do to me after I die. is this right? should I stop questioning and humble myself before a being that punishes people after death?

the chrisitan god is anxious to save us, in fact some say he already has, and we have to accept it. but what is he saving us from... his punishment?

or our sin?

still we wouldnt need to be saved from sin if he wasnt gonna punish us for it.

if its so urgent, why doesnt he just save everyone regardless of what happens in life.

if its so urgent, why cant he at least show up and tell us the deal, instead of keeping us guessing till our own peril.

if we are to live forever after death, then what is death but uterly meaningless. think about it. it can only be viewed as an event where god says: after this event, i judge you and punish or reward you.

and thats all death is.
 
Moved to the Christianity forum. These are excellent questions that should be addressed by those who profess Christianity as their faith.

v/r

Joshua
 
why does it matter what we believe. why does god care about belief. quote]

(Acts 17:31) Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead."............... and its Jesus , and Jesus is a reigning king in the heavens . Daniel 2;44 Daniel 7;13-14
Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off.
God’s love will preserve survivors for his new world.
The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. .... zepheniah 1;14
 
Too many questions for one post to go over each individually so Im just gonna hit points.

why does it matter what we believe. why does god care about belief. and even if he does, why does he get so mad at disbelief
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 3:18 [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]That tells you he doesnt get mad and condemn you it is something that has already been done. Thats what people try to do is blame God. God does not send a single person to hell. You have to do that yourself.
[/FONT]
 
jesus seems like a nice fella until you dont trust him

Well, think of it from his persepctive. God himself is doing everything you need to believe him because he loves you and desperately wants you to come to him, but you refuse to because you've hardened your heart against him. He knows he's doing enough for you to believe, you just refuse to.

people think they have good fortunes because they trust the lord.

Well the Bible says that all things happen for the benefit of those who trust God. God obviously blessed them with what they have, even if they might not deserve it. God may be rewarding them for their faith, but you can't know Gods thoughts. His thoughts are not our thoughts.

is it trustworthy on gods point to screw us over if we dont believe in him?

You have the wrong presumption for this questioin. God doesn't screw us over. We're screwing ourselves over. We are in a constant state of rebellion against God. We are screwing ourselves over by not turning to God.
is god just trying to prove to us that we are hopeless without him.

Well in a way, yes. Everythign about God is right and good, because he made the world to reflect his glory. Man was made to need God, much like we need food, water, and air. Man rebelled against God and was cut off from him, so God wants us to realize that we have no hope without him. I can think of countless times I've tried ot do somethign on my own, to have it backfire in the end. Then I think that I should have trusted God instead of my own manpower.

is that the whole point of christianity?

Well that's a tough question. I'd say that the point of it is to know the story of how God created, Man rebelled and fell away, so God redeemed mankind. Now that man is redeemed and no longer spiritualy dead ot God, God now dwells within man and develops relationships with them, and tells them how to live life to the fullest and most abudnantly... in a nutshell :p

even if he is trying to show us that we need him in our life, i still dont get that we have to be punished for not understanding that we need him in our life.

God is so Holy and Righteious that he has to judge sin. His very nature demands that he punish sin. Every person sinned. Every person is subject to his jugement (being cut off from him in Hell). God punished himself (Jesus, the Son) for the sins of all the world so we could go to heaven for free.

Here's a thread where I talked more fully about the concept of redemption in Christianity:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/sin-and-redemption-6764.html#post95746


that seems to be what jesus does... he says: "you dont want me?" fine you will be cast down etc etc...

Because that's what every person deserves, for we all disobeyed God. Jesus simply respects people's free will. He offers salvation to all who ask him, but if someone really doesn't want to, then he has no choice but to let them suffer the consequences they deserve.

is it reasonable to be upset that god punishes people that dont want to go along with him? or should it be obvious that belief in a god and compliance with his will is what we should do if we want peace?

I can understand completely why someone woudl be mad at God punishing people; I find that it's usualy because people think it's un-fair and don't want to admit that they are sinners and are in teh wrong. I also understeand completely why God does it. I can say from my experience that to live a life pleasing to God is so much more worthwhile than anything else I've tried. There's just no way to match the closeness with God.

why do many people talk about making peace with god.

probably because they think that God is angry with them; or that they have this notion that salvation is works-based. But it's not, being right with God is a matter of faith. But any christian should know that by accepting christ as their savior, God gives them a perfect new heart (a heart like God's) so that when God sees you he sees percfection, and we are at peace with him. Now our bodies and this world is ravaged by sin, which is why we still sin, and there is cosequences for sins (although there is no judgement for it, there are consequences we experience here on earth: guilt, sadness, etc.) These consequences are God's way of diciplining us not ot do them: because they hurt us and others.

why are we in a position to have to make peace with him in the first place.

Because we willingly disobeyed him and are subject to his wrath. Everyone has a conscience and knows right from wrong.

why is god always at war with us, or we at war with god/ it just seems like a ploy to make humans feel like something is wrong with them that their reasoning cant solve.

That's right. We are at war with God. It's not a ploy, it's a God-given truth that there IS something wrong with us, we are sinners who disobey the Most High God, we are damaged goods, and we need to turn to God to make us right again. Teh reason we cant' solve it is because we are the problem, but God is the solution. That's why we gave is his Word on how.

I think humans problems can be solved, and they can be solved without a belief in a mystery god. but im worried about what god might do to me after I die. is this right? should I stop questioning and humble myself before a being that punishes people after death?

I agree, we can slove problems, but we keep messing it up again and again and again.

As for questiong God, come to him by faith. I've known people to reject God because of intelectual issues. I had some too, but by coming to him in faith, he revelaed to me answers to my questions. Faith comes first, it is the most important thing, everything else comes after. It seems you know God is there. God whispers to us. He wants you to come to him by faith and admit you are a sinner and you need him.

the chrisitan god is anxious to save us, in fact some say he already has, and we have to accept it. but what is he saving us from... his punishment?

or our sin?

Both. Because of out sin, we are subject to his judgement. But there is good news!!! God has already done the work for us, we just need to accept his gift. God longs more than anything for us to be saved and to come to him. He doesn't like having ot sentence peopel to Hell, but if people reject his gift of forgiveness, is nature requires that he give them what they ask for.

still we wouldnt need to be saved from sin if he wasnt gonna punish us for it.

Well he can't help that his nature requires him to punish sin. And he can't help the fact that we willingly reject him. But we could simply not sin against him, but we dont' and we sin all the time.

if its so urgent, why doesnt he just save everyone regardless of what happens in life.

Because God respects his Image bearers so much that even if they refuse him, he's not going to make them do something they choose not to. He respects our free will.

if its so urgent, why cant he at least show up and tell us the deal, instead of keeping us guessing till our own peril.

He did. 2000 years ago. And he told us what was up and people still didn't believe even when they were face to face with God. Why do you think it bothered Jesus so much when peopel refused him?

if we are to live forever after death, then what is death but uterly meaningless. think about it. it can only be viewed as an event where god says: after this event, i judge you and punish or reward you.

and thats all death is.

So you are saying that if death is meaningless then life is meaningless. Life is a learnign process. God gives us life and wants us to choose to come to him. To chose to love him. To desire after him. And it is by the trials of life that we are shaped into the people that God wants us to be. Trials teach us.

I do not feel i adequtely answered this last question. There is a much better answer to your question, and it is found in God's word. I'm sure you will find the answer if you search for it and are persistant enough. Besides, God rewards those who ernestly seek after him.

I hope my answers helped you some.
 
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] God does not send a single person to hell.
[/FONT]
very true indeed, litral hellfire is not a bible teaching. but being cut-off from blessings is.
 
very true indeed, litral hellfire is not a bible teaching. but being cut-off from blessings is.

Quite the contrary, hellfire is indeed biblical.

But let us compare:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Bible presents "hell", as translated from "Sheol" and "Hades", to be mankind's common grave for both the good and the bad, whereas "Gehenna" signifies eternal destruction or annihilation, and that the idea of a place of eternal torment is something detestible to God. Scriptures cited to support this include:
  • "O that thou wouldest hide me in the Sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time , and remember me!" (Job 14:3) - Job, a good man, desiring liberation from his suffering, prays to be sent to Sheol, to die. This harmonizes with the classical Jewish perspective on hell.
  • "...and death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14) - The Greek word translated to English as "hell", Hades, is used here to signify its utter destruction since death and Hades itself cannot be tortured for sins.
  • "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten...for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-9) - Immortality of the soul is scripturally unsound and is a requisite for the hellfire doctrine.
Jehovah's Witnesses reject the traditional concept of "hellfire" awaiting sinners immediately after death. They consider particular judgment, the doctrine that one is judged and either punished or rewarded immediately after death, to be an innovation of the early Church. They do not believe the traditional concept of Hell to be supported by the Bible. They find the Hellfire view of hell to be inconsistent with the loving and just God.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe Hell to be the common grave of mankind where they unconsciously await resurrection to eternal life, or a resurrection to judgement. (John 5:28, 29)
Witnesses do not believe in the immortality of the soul.[1] and thus do not believe a soul can suffer eternally.


The Main stream Christian idea of Hell is different from the Sheol of Judaism.
Gospels frequently portray images of the fiery destruction and torment of the wicked. Sometimes this destruction is their annihilation or eternal punishment when God's Kingdom gets established on earth (Matthew 3:10-12, Matthew 25:41-46, Luke 3:9, John 5:28-29). Other times it is the fate of the individual sinner (Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:29-30, Luke 12:5, John 15:1-6). Sometimes the fate of the wicked is depicted not as flames or destruction but as darkness or exclusion (Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 25:30, Luke 13:22-28, Luke 16:19-28). Jesus himself describes a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth"; this quotation appears six times in Matthew and once in Luke.
The Book of Revelation is also a rich source of hellish imagery(Revelation 12:9, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 21:8). The "abyss" and "the Earth" are interpreted as references to Hell.
The most vivid New Testament account of the fate of the wicked in the afterlife is Luke 16:19-28 (Lazarus and Dives). In this account, nobody can pass from the bosom of Abraham to the place where the wicked burn or vice versa. Fire is not the only tormentor, thirst being another, and more that are not described; in this biblical passage it is also mentioned that the souls that are in Hell can see those that are in Heaven and vice versa. Many view this story as a parable, and as such, believe its meaning may not literally define the existence in the afterlife, but instead serve as a lesson about the dangers of wealth and the unwillingness to listen to God.

One must look at the whole of the Bible in order to see the magnitude and finality of Hell (which includes a literal burning fire, which never consumes).

v/r

Joshua
 
Mee please keep this Biblical no watchtower doctrine.:)
true bible teachings is the way to go :) great blessings are in store for those who are not cut off
(Luke 12:42) And the Lord said: "Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?
(1 Peter 3:12) For [the] eyes of Jehovah are upon the righteous ones, and his ears are toward their supplication; but [the] face of Jehovah is against those doing bad things."
The face of Jehovah is against those doing what is bad,​
To cut off the mention of them from the very earth.psalm 34;16
 
Too many questions for one post to go over each individually so Im just gonna hit points.

why does it matter what we believe. why does god care about belief. and even if he does, why does he get so mad at disbelief
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 3:18 [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]That tells you he doesnt get mad and condemn you it is something that has already been done. Thats what people try to do is blame God. God does not send a single person to hell. You have to do that yourself.
[/FONT]


Just had to point out that I completely agree with you Dor. :)
 
Maybe it's all just a test to see if we are fit company or not and everything else is just window dressing and slight of hand?
Maybe Hell is just not being allowed in Gods kingdom because your not fit company and that's all there is to it.
Maybe the fundimentalists are totaly right and anyone who isn't with them aint worthy of life let alone salvation.
Possibly the liberals are right and it doesn't matter.
I do know one thing for sure- no-one realy knows untill they die-and if it turns out it's Richard Dawkins who's right, who's gonna care?
 
Hope in Jehovah and keep his way,
And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth.
When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see [it]. psalm 37;34​
 
Reading through this thread I was reminded of a small section from a book called "River of Fire, River of Water", which is an introduction to the Buddhist Pure Land tradition written by Taitetsu Unno.

For anyone interested I have will post this on the Buddhist section of this forum, (i.e. "Come, just as you are") as it is specifically Pure Land and may draw upon itself the wrath of the moderators if posted here....:eek:

Just as a quick aside, the difference between "willfulness" and "willingness". That which we can will and that we cannot.

We can will knowledge, but not wisdom. Pleasure but not happiness. Congratulations but not admiration. Reading/listening but not understanding. Meekness but not humility.

On what side of the line does "belief" fall, or "salvation" for that matter?

As it is said in the book from which I drew these distinctions.......

The hardest lesson to learn is not how to choose but rather how to acquire that passionate knowledge which will permit us again to be chosen.

and...

We are all looking for, but we find what we are looking for only by being looked for...

:)

See you over on the Buddhist section?
 
is god just trying to prove to us that we are hopeless without him.

Shadowman: Is that how you see it? That you are hopeless? I truly have pity for anyone that can read into a book (or not)and then see themselves as useless or hopeless or imperfect.... and so on... Degrading... 50,000 cells in your body will die... AND be replaced with new cells, all while you have been reading this one sentence.... The only part of your body that cannot repair itself is your teeth... Your brain generates more electrical impulses in one day than all of the worlds telephones put together. Your liver has over 500 jobs... Seeing your body has ALMOST every chemical inside it, your body create pretty much any drug.... You can see over 500 different shades of grey... Other simple? Things.... You can make so many tones that you can communicate in great detail with other humans... You recognise other humans you know from sight and sound... You see in colour, in 3D! Man... I'd say you're pretty amazing...
 
jesus seems like a nice fella until you dont trust him

is it trustworthy on gods point to screw us over if we dont believe in him?

is god just trying to prove to us that we are hopeless without him.

is that the whole point of christianity?

if its so urgent, why doesnt he just save everyone regardless of what happens in life.

if its so urgent, why cant he at least show up and tell us the deal, instead of keeping us guessing till our own peril.

if we are to live forever after death, then what is death but uterly meaningless. think about it. it can only be viewed as an event where god says: after this event, i judge you and punish or reward you.

and thats all death is.

You're referring to the "classical mindset" in Christianity. Could we perhaps take a step back and pretend we've have never seen or known Christianity before? I'm sure that a lot of what you're saying here comes from what Christians have been telling you about Christianity.

It's not so much that I disagree with what you're been told, but just that I believe that whoever told you these things were talking more about what Christianity meant to them and their own perception of it. It is not the absolute, precise or exact picture of Christianity. They're beliefs about Christianity are true, but only based on what they've seen and known. Not all Christians are the same.

If all Christians were the same, and if all Christians had to believe exactly the same thing, Christianity would be impersonal. It would be a religion that's used to manipulate people. Your personal identity and dignity wouldn't matter. You'd just be a pawn, a tool to be used for the personal gratification of another. They're talking about their relationship with God. This is what their relationship with God is like. You're not compelled to see your relationship with God the same way as they do. Doing so does not mean you're not Christian.

Think of God as just another soul out there in the universe that offers you a relationship. What makes Him different from everyone else is that He's God. The King. Emperor. President. The First Citizen in the Kingdom. Most powerful individual in the whole universe. This relationship is a special one. It's a relationship with your Creator.

I don't think God will get angry or punish you if you refuse the invitation. You simply don't go to the party. If you don't want to go you don't go. If you're not interested you don't miss out on anything. There is no punishment. That's what you wanted. We are condemned by our own conscience. If we insist that hell-fire will come to everyone else, then hellfire will come to us if we're not careful. Better to be safe and not talk about the hellfire at all.

If you want to have a relationship with God, particularly through Christianity, it's probably best to come up with your own reasons for doing it, not because someone else told you you'd be thrown into a lake of fire if you didn't. That would be impersonal. Your personal feelings wouldn't matter and that wouldn't be right. That would be wrong. Very wrong.

There is no need for you to be a victim of a person or people who has an attitude that your relationship with God must be exactly the same as the kind that they are having with God. That is not to say they are victimising you (let's not get cynical here). They may simply be telling you what Christianity means to them. Perfectly legitimate.

You can choose to swallow it, or swallow it down with a grain of salt.

Here's the catch: I am aware and understand that you or those who introduced you to Christianity are afraid that without these so-called concepts of "hell" and "forgiveness" Christianity couldn't possibly exist or be Christianity.

It's a common fear in Christianity, to tread beyond these waters. But methinks the universe of Christianity is a bit bigger than that.

The reason why we're afraid to tread further may be because of what Christianity has been through in the last century. Christianity has been hurt. It's been wounded and assaulted and is confused about how to respond. It's made us cautious even to slightly unorthodox concepts that we've never thought of before. Speculation, contemplation, exploration are often discouraged.

It's not so true of the people here at CR, but I can imagine the background of those with whom you've made contact.
 
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