Virginia Tech

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by wil, Apr 18, 2007.

  1. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    No not a freedom fighter. A kid whos angst and dissapointment that life is hard and rarely fair developed into a consuming psychosis. There is no nobility in his thoughts or actions.
     
  2. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yet from his isolated, alienated perspective he may have very well seen himself as a "freedom fighter." This is not to condone any kind of killing, but to shift perspectives from one of pointing and judging a "psychopath" to some attempt to understand what may have been going on with this kid.
     
  3. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    What he saw himself as was a part of his illness. And it is entirely fair and proper to judge him a psycopath and then attempt to understand why and see what lessons we can learn from it. He is beyond help now.

    (sounds argumentative but I assure you it is not)
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,173
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Today's news. He was apprehended by campus police three times. In court the first judge said he was a danger to himself and others and recommended a psyche evaluation. The psyche evaluation and second judge decided he needed outpatient treatment and that he was a danger to himself...but did not indicate to others.

    Despite his altercations with campus police previously his current roomate and teachers were not aware due to the fact that only the first judge and the police thought he was a danger to others but it wasn't the final court ruling...hence he could purchase weapons and not have a ding on the FBI check and the people around him were not notified due to privacy laws....

    Let the lawyers begin...the college and the state now has a lot to lose...and Virginia taxpayers...will pay.
     
  5. Rouge47

    Rouge47 Follower of Christ

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    196
    Likes Received:
    0
    It has been said, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." I'm not saying that this guy was a freedom fighter but I'm not sure if I would classify him as a terrorist either, for he had reason (according to what he believed to be a reason..that is).

    Basically I'm just saying that I'm not taking a stance on any grounds. He WAS a bit crazy and he DID need more (a lot more) psychological help, BUT his life WAS filled with hate and pain from those who tortured him.

    "Resolved: An oppressive government is better than no government."

    Action is better than withdholding.

    But, democracy is better than regime.

    And finding help is better than going at things alone.

    The poor guy chose the wrong path. Others had to suffer in his tide. If only he recieved more help from counselors, he probably wouldn't have tackled his issues in such a wrong fashion.
     
  6. Francis king

    Francis king New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    0
    i feel sorry for the kid, myself, and for all his victims... it stands out about the prof who had survived the holocaust and then sacrificed himself for the life of his students.. what a guy... a real hero...

    one young man, goes over to a death camp, but something about him makes him strong, makes him survive, and he goes on to give his life to others... one young man, goes to university, but something makes him weak, causes him to kill, and he uses his life to end the lives of others...

    ...both just men...

    ...I would like to take this opportunity to remind ppl to try and be nice to each other... we all have in-groups, and we all can recognise the outsiders... maybe we should all, between us, try to ensure that the next time we seek to ostracise a person from becoming a member of the in-group we should turn things around, embrace the loners, smile at ppl, try to make them feel accepted...

    ..u see, being lonely and feeling small is something we all know... for ppl who spend a lot of time feeling small and unwanted there is only two ways to go... u accept ur lowly status, accept that nobody likes u, ur not cool or rich or clever enough, and they become even smaller, until u fade away into the background and nobody remembers u, or u go the other way, u cannot just fade away, make no fuss, u cannot accept the isolation and instead u want to make a big statement... u want to teach them that they cannot treat u like that... making "them" suffer makes u feel better, or so u think...

    ...university is just an extension of school, and the same social rules apply there as applied at school... most of u have probably experienced Freshers week, where ppl meet up and gangs start to form, and yet... there are always ppl on the periphery, the kids with glasses, the fat kids, the posh kids who dont do drugs, and many of these outsiders have a miserable time at uni socially... kids are cruel to each other without thinking...

    ...these events keep happenning, and every time they happen ppl like us post our comments online, we're all trying to justify events, make sense of what happens, but its simple, really...

    ...for a lot of ppl, the world is a harsh cruel place, we all have a hand in the creation of society, and society is not very civilised... large organisations such as universities do not have systems in place to prevent things like this happenning, most lecturers dont give a damn about individuals students welfare, and unless u actively ask for help u can wander around campus for three years with ur head in bits and nobody will know until u pull a gun on ur fellow students...

    ...we can try to apportion blame, blame the kid's background, blame his parents, blame the lecturers, blame the campus security services, but it's not gonna bring those kids back and it isnt going to stop this happenning again...

    ... we all need to make the effort to be more inclusive, and we need to stop being so mean and self centred, and look at other ppl as valued beings, not just figures of fun and oddball maniacs...
     
  7. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's the kind of media response I've been looking for: a bit of critical thinking and analysis of the context of the situation, rather than the boo-hoo'ing, tragedy wallowing, and shocked faux-innocence stupidity radiating out from TV sets and USA Today.

    Excerpt from
    Virginia Tech: Is the Scene of the Crime the Cause of the Crime?
    By Mark Ames, AlterNet. Posted April 20, 2007.


    Schoolyard shootings are too shocking and subversive to forget. They remind us that we were just as miserable as kids as we are as adult workers. In fact, the similarities between the two, the continuity of misery and entrapment from school to office, become depressingly clear when you study the two settings in the context of these murders. Even physically, they look alike and warp the mind in similar ways: the overhead fluorescent lights, the economies-of-scale industrial carpeting and linoleum floors, the stench of cleaning chemicals in the restrooms, the same stalls with the same latches and the same metal toilet paper holders ... Then, after work or school, you go home to your suburb, where no one talks to each other and no one looks at each other, and where everyone, even the whitest-bread cul-de-sac neighbor is a suspected pedophile, making child leashes a requirement and high-tech security systems a given.​


    If you consider it this way, it means our entire lives, except perhaps college -- and Cho Seung-Hui reminds us that college can be hell for some people as well -- and that one summer backpacking around Europe are unbearably awful. As if our entire wretched script was designed for someone else's benefit. This is too much to handle. So the inescapable suspicion that suburban schools cause murder rampages is rejected with unrestrained hysteria -- and so it will be with college campuses in the public discussion about how to prevent more "Virginia Techs."​


    Blame is hurriedly focused on the murderer, rather than on the environment. A typical example is an op-ed piece written by Joanne Jacobs for the San Jose Mercury News, published exactly eight months after the Columbine massacre, in which she tried to reassure herself and her readers that, "Evil, not rage, drove these killers." I emphasize her quote because it's one of the most revealing yet widely held explanations among contemporary Americans.

    When you use a word as inherently meaningless as "evil" to describe something as complex and resonant as Columbine or Virginia Tech, you are desperately trying to recover the amnesia that once protected you and told you how blissful and innocent your own school years were. The fact is that the schoolyard shooters were clear about their intentions: They wanted to "pry your eyes open." But sometimes we don't like what our eyes see; in fact, we refuse to believe what they see. You'd need to use "Clockwork Orange" eye-tweezers on someone like Joanne Jacobs to make her face this unpleasant fact. Blaming "evil" has worked wonders for President Bush in Iraq, and it's working wonders for Americans in understanding and stopping these massacres.

    If you pull back and rethink how you view these rampage massacres -- if you can accept that the schools and offices are what provoke these massacres, just as poverty and racism create their own violent crimes, or slavery created slave violence and rebellions, then you have to accept that on some level the school and office shootings are logical outcomes and perhaps even justified responses to an intolerable condition that we can't yet put our fingers on.​


    Justified, that is, if you look at these crimes from a future historian's point of view. Imagine a historian 100 years from now, with no emotional investment in our contemporary culture, looking back on how we live today, and thinking to himself, "My god, how could those poor wretches cope with such hell?" It doesn't take a time machine to think this way. Unofficially, today a lot of people look at these murders as justified, as some kind of vindication. Sympathy is all over the Web. It's revealed in black humor, in "wage slave" T-shirts and in the success of movies like "Office Space" and "Fight Club." It's revealed anywhere it can safely be expressed.​
     
  8. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    A salient lucid peice of wrting that I can agrree with right up till the last paragraph.

    Life is hell on earth for many, and a percentage feel this most keenly. But the majority do not. Most people are content being sheep, following the flock and being good obedient workers and consumers. You wont find them on these forums or any other discussing this subject though. They will sit not tuned into the news but re-runs of pathetic mind-numbing sugar sweet canned laughter and formulaic humour. Or undifferentiated 1 plot fits them all thrillers in which the good guys always win. Or... or... or...

    The corporate owned media blast this young mans crazy ranting at you from every angle. Then abruptly withdraw it to let it fester in the fear centres of the sheeps brains. Another bit of the programing. Even the explosion of anger at our Orwellian society turned to its advantage.

    Most people dont care to think. They want to live in their little bubbles. This event is unimportant. All it was a tragic loss of life. And it will change nothing.
     
  9. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, Tao! What a horribly cynical world view you express. One would almost infer that you don't want anything to change.

    I agree with you that masses of people are dull, ignorant, and manipulated. Has this always been the case throughout history--the stunted and drowsy masses herded like cattle by the whims of those in power? Perhaps. Is history all there is? Perhaps not.

    Granted, this event is just a re-run of the old inculcated programming, and is being handled in predictable ways. It certainly is serving a purpose of reinforcing a strong gridlock of fear, terror, and ignorance. And you are probably right in that it won't produce any positive changes. Indeed, such a mass generation of fear is a setback for those who hope to see more integral, peaceful, colorful, and complementary ways of living take root.

    Yet hopelessness serves no positive purpose. And like viewing the many facets of a fractal, we clearly see that hopelessness turned to rage certainly only perpetuates problems. Because hopelessness serves no purpose, I do believe some people will come around and begin to grasp new ways of living and thinking.

    There is an exponential roiling of consciousness in this ever more connected world. We are what we think and we are the emotions we entertain. The future belongs to those who can come together to cooperate and develop and apply creative solutions. One of the first steps in this process is turning off the stale re-runs and stopping the consumption of those mass-produced, stale emotions.

    Can we do it? Dunno. I feel we have no choice but to be hopeful, though. Otherwise, we let the problems create our realities.
     
  10. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Pathless,

    I dont think I am cynical, and very much hope that I am not!!

    But I refuse to justify under any circumstance or behind any excuse that violence of that nature can be acceptable.

    My last post was a response to your previous one, and more exactly the last paragraph of what you pasted from Mark Ames. I feel what I wrote represents a truth, but not the only truth. And the fact that I am here participating in debate shows that I do have hope. There are a significant minority out there that refuse to be sheep. I flock to them :p

    Regards

    TE
     
  11. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,173
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    I posted a prayer earlier by a friend Annie....I saw her again this weekend, with over a hundred highschool students, some of which were from Blacksburg and Roanoke...all were quite touched by this. It also sent messages of how close this was, as I found I know a number of people who lost people in this tradgedy, including folks who knew the shooter.

    I don't know what was the impetus for Karl's song "One Prayer" but I feel it is applicable here and many of you would enjoy the video.
     
  13. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    0
  14. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes Received:
    161
    What girlfriend? Seung-Hui Cho didn't have a girlfriend (as has been noted by Salty).

    However, Salty is wrong in saying that he was not into romance, for when he switched over from his previous major (which he was doing well in, by the way) to English, he did write a romance novel over the summer. Romance is something that people with social skills do, not unskilled severly depressed loners.

    It is obvious Seung-Hui Cho had selective mutism. Take a look at this documentary on the subject:

    YouTube - Virginia Tech Massacre Part 1

    Somebody said he broke out into sweats from his severe anxiety in the classroom. His english teacher at the university described the condition perfectly. After having selective mutism for so long, it was difficult (if not near impossible) to make social connections due to his inability to develop social skills in critical phases of development, such as elementary school, middle school, high school, and college.

    As for other "psychological difficulties," it has been said that he had schizophrenia; he mentions Question Mark, his twin brother, and Jelly, an imaginary girl friend. In the documentary, somebody made a good point about how "adopting different personas is common for people who don't feel centered in who they are." This is so true. I suffered from selective mutism throughout my school years and feel like I did adopt different personas at times, because I hadn't developed one yet through experiences with other people. It did feel like I could not answer a vital question: Who am I? Just as a person who is born and grows in isolation on an island for years and years would have trouble with their self-identity among our society once suddenly being placed in it, so it is in Cho's case. I think that this identity crisis of his can be linked to selective mutism.

    He was very, very confused and didn't know how to handle his condition. It is clear he desired friends, for his writings usually involved not just one person, but a group of people. Remember, this is coming from someone who has no friends whatsoever in reality. I think that meeting other poeple with selective mutism would help him see that he was not the only one with this and that there are good solutions to the problem. Violence was not the right solution. Seeing other people suffering with selective mutism the same way he is may have helped him open up to see other perspectives, but I don't think he ever did meet anybody else with SM. It's kind of rare, and, yes, it is still being studied. More resources can be found here:

    Selective Mutism Group ~ Childhood Anxiety Network — Selective Mutism Group

    I did read one resource where doctors are exploring its links to the brain. For example, the sweating in particular social situations could be caused by an overstimulated part of the brain causing such great amounts of severe anxiety that the person is unable to speak.

    Also, people said that many of the victims he shot were just random people. Nobody saw any type of persecution from another student to Cho. Maybe it was a result of psychological transferance. The school setting and behaviors (like people who socialize together being one reason for their happiness) may have reminded him of a person's behavior that rediculed him, causing him to explode. This is speculation. As a person who personally knows selective mutism, I know the reaction from many (but not all) school students will be negative. There is the stereotype of the "quite kid" as school shooter. There's so much **** I had to put up with. I imagine he did inhibit alot of anger; I did too, until I learned to forgive.
     
  15. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes Received:
    161
    Salty:

    No, the family was not poor. Watch the documentary.
     
  16. shawn

    shawn New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    Has anyone looked into what kind of med's this kid was on.
    Anti-depressants, etc.
    These have been found to be a common thing amongst people who do crazy s**t like this.
    This is most likely to be the cause of them coming unglued.
     
  17. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes Received:
    161
    Hmm . . . I remember the documentary saying that he did decide on his own to stop using them, but I am unaware if he began to use anti-depressants again in the future.
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,173
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    I read somewhere, whether it was anecdotal or not, that as Shawn indicated many of these murder mayhem types were either on meds OR as you indicated recently off of them.

    Ritalin has got some bad rap for this, not knowing or saying whether it is deserved or not. (all caveats installed for or by or at refusal of or insistence of the leagle beagles.
     
  19. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    0
    just watched that on youtube Ahanu, l'd never heard of selective mutism before this, only multiple personality disorder MPD, obviously totally different to severe social inhibition.These cases are as fascinating as appalling to those interested in human psychology and why such incidents occur; there were many clues, but all too disparate [hassling girls, suicidal confession, no follow up hospital check, gun buying laws obviously wrong]... l remember one of the few mass murders in the 1980's in Scotland of primary school children l felt extremely personally, just because it had happened on my birthday!

    What struck me [and is common anyways] was the difference in his face, the eyes were totally different; one more 'evil' than the other, Try it, place a hand covering one side checking out the eye and mouth then the other, freaky:eek:
     
  20. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes Received:
    161
    The following quote gives information on when Cho wrote his paper about the columbine shooters (which was before being prescribed the antidepressant paroxetin):

    In June, it says:

    Official Site of the Governor of Virginia

    http://www.governor.virginia.gov/Te... LIFE AND MENTAL HEALTH HISTORY OF CHOpdf.pdf
     

Share This Page