god help me I cant stop questioning

[shadowman]

I recently think a lot about the every man for himself "if you arent for jesus you are for the devil" mentality of christianity. The whole thing is about individual salvation. In the end we dont care about our fellow humans, IN THE END, because in the end we make damn sure WE arent going to hell. SO if our fellow man causes us to question and doubt we cast him off into the world of fear, demonification and dread.... I think its psychologically impossible for a chrisitan to truly love and care for anyone that is not a christian, in the end, in the back of their minds, they realize "this person is probably going to hell, and if I follow him too much, it could lead me to hell too!"

it seems that we care about individual salvation only in chrisitanity. its about individual salvation, a personal relationship with jesus. how much can we truly love someone if they dont love our lord and savior? even if we try, even if we say we do love them, it is impossible to undo the fact that we are fundamentally opposed to everything they live for and base their thoughts and actions upon.

We could do so much more for each other in this world but we waste time trying to spread a system of beliefs.

we view men as hopeless sinners and view the world as fallen.

this keeps us from realizstically trying to help or fix anytihng

In the back of our minds we know the world is gonna end and god is gonna fix everything for those who beleive, so it is impossible to ever make a TRUE effort to help our fellow man or try and end problems like world hunger, homelessness and disease.

Chrisitanity doesnt take this reality seriously. its about expecting things not seen, awaiting a kingdom. this world is dreamlike, and believers spend their prayers in a drunken trance of joy, able to forget all the sufferings of the world and do relatively minor help on missions. Missions are great. house building, food drives, feeding etc. But in order to seriously think about helping people on a real global scale, belief in jesus keeps thoughts clouded as to what people in the here and now really need.

I understand that if hell was real then everyone needs salvation from hell, becuase as every chrisitan knows, its up to them to save people... because gods not gonna do it!

bringing up another point. Leave the people that dont know alone! Of course a god that would create hell doesnt deserve any presumptions or presuppositions of fairness or kind ness, our flawed fallen human natures ASSUME that if someone hasnt heard the gospel, god gives them some kind of fair chance to get into heaven. again, given a god that thinks hell is ok regardless of humans making the wrong choice, there is no real reason to assume god would be fair to people that havnt heard the gospel.

but if the stakes are this high, it seems we should leave people that havnt heard alone, let them live and die in their flawed jesus less existance and let them get into heaven free. As someone who has heard the gospel and is plagued by worries about my future damnation and the salvation of family memvbers and other strugglin humans that reject jesus, I can tell you. Id rather be an ignorant but happy muslim, aftican traditional religionist, or hindu!

and a word about the strugglin humans. Life is hard for everyone! Chrisitans tend to forget subconsciously that everyone is trying and they really think it is ok for people, even those that reject jesus after fully understanding the bible, to go through the struggles and ups and downs of life, alongside them, and then to be tossed into hell becuase they made the wrong choice

oh well they say.

it was their choice!

even when I feel like jesus is real my logic tells me it has to be brainwahsing. because on the big picture, it just doesnt feel right!

 

[mee]

I recently think a lot about the every man for himself "if you arent for jesus you are for the devil" mentality of christianity. The whole thing is about individual salvation. In the end we dont care about our fellow humans, IN THE END, because in the end we make damn sure WE arent going to hell. SO if our fellow man causes us to question and doubt we cast him off into the world of fear, demonification and dread.... I think its psychologically impossible for a chrisitan to truly love and care for anyone that is not a christian, in the end, in the back of their minds, they realize "this person is probably going to hell, and if I follow him too much, it could lead me to hell too!"

it seems that we care about individual salvation only in chrisitanity. its about individual salvation, a personal relationship with jesus. how much can we truly love someone if they dont love our lord and savior? even if we try, even if we say we do love them, it is impossible to undo the fact that we are fundamentally opposed to everything they live for and base their thoughts and actions upon.

We could do so much more for each other in this world but we waste time trying to spread a system of beliefs.

we view men as hopeless sinners and view the world as fallen.

this keeps us from realizstically trying to help or fix anytihng

In the back of our minds we know the world is gonna end and god is gonna fix everything for those who beleive, so it is impossible to ever make a TRUE effort to help our fellow man or try and end problems like world hunger, homelessness and disease.

Chrisitanity doesnt take this reality seriously. its about expecting things not seen, awaiting a kingdom. this world is dreamlike, and believers spend their prayers in a drunken trance of joy, able to forget all the sufferings of the world and do relatively minor help on missions. Missions are great. house building, food drives, feeding etc. But in order to seriously think about helping people on a real global scale, belief in jesus keeps thoughts clouded as to what people in the here and now really need.

I understand that if hell was real then everyone needs salvation from hell, becuase as every chrisitan knows, its up to them to save people... because gods not gonna do it!

bringing up another point. Leave the people that dont know alone! Of course a god that would create hell doesnt deserve any presumptions or presuppositions of fairness or kind ness, our flawed fallen human natures ASSUME that if someone hasnt heard the gospel, god gives them some kind of fair chance to get into heaven. again, given a god that thinks hell is ok regardless of humans making the wrong choice, there is no real reason to assume god would be fair to people that havnt heard the gospel.

but if the stakes are this high, it seems we should leave people that havnt heard alone, let them live and die in their flawed jesus less existance and let them get into heaven free. As someone who has heard the gospel and is plagued by worries about my future damnation and the salvation of family memvbers and other strugglin humans that reject jesus, I can tell you. Id rather be an ignorant but happy muslim, aftican traditional religionist, or hindu!

and a word about the strugglin humans. Life is hard for everyone! Chrisitans tend to forget subconsciously that everyone is trying and they really think it is ok for people, even those that reject jesus after fully understanding the bible, to go through the struggles and ups and downs of life, alongside them, and then to be tossed into hell becuase they made the wrong choice

oh well they say.

it was their choice!

even when I feel like jesus is real my logic tells me it has to be brainwahsing. because on the big picture, it just doesnt feel right!

the reason it doesnt feel right is because the manmade doctrine of hellfire is not bible based teachings and it is false . true christianity gives us hope for the future , and the preaching of the GOODNEWS of the kingdom is to put us on notice that God is going to step into the affairs of man and put an end to the human way of doing things and do things his way DANIEL 2;44 .and Jesus is the one that Jehovah has put in charge to get the Job done DANIEL 7;13-14 MATTHEW 28;19-20.Jehovahs day will come and it gets ever nearer and ever closer as ZEPHENIAH 1 ;14 tells us , and only the wicked will be cut-off from all of the BLESSINGS . so the preaching of the GOODNEWS is to put people on notice that this heavenly kingdom goverment is the ONLY WAY TO PEACE matthew 24;14 and yes it is GOODNEWS .
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth FOR A WITNESS to all the nations; and then the end will come. matthew 24;14 this is not the end of the world but it is the end of manmade goverments .and as it says in mark 13;10The goodnews has got to be preached first. it is for a witness , or it is to put people on notice.in times past Jehovah always informed people if he was going to step in , and he made the way out for their salvation . that is going on right now all over the world .HE CAUSES TO BECOME , and he will prove to be what he will prove to be .Jehovahs purpose for the earth will prove to be and bible prophecy is now well along in this time of the end . and there are many out there who are out to supress that GOODNEWS, that is because at the momment the whole world is under the power of the wicked one (satan the devil)..1 JOHN 5;19.. this is not some red devil with horns and a pitchfork , he is in opposition to the true God , he is a slanderer, and lier, and he does all of those things against the true God . but soon his time will be up and he will be put out of action , nothing or nobody can stop Gods purpose for the earth from becoming accomplished.
(Mark 13:10) Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first.........yes this is GOODNEWS and the gathering of the GREAT CROWD goes on REVELATION 7;9-10 many have allowed False religious teachers to influence them to be blinded to the GOODNEWS..
If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god (satan the devil)of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.........2 corinthians 4;4yes the GOODNEWS about Jesus and the part that Jesus plays in Gods purpose for the earth , is being supressed by the god of this system(satan the devil) but no worries the faithful angels who are working inline with Jehovah and Jesus christ are helping to get the GOODNEWS done.
(Revelation 14:6) And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,.......... its all happening in this time of the end .

 

[Dondi]

You bring up some valid points, shadowman.

it seems that we care about individual salvation only in chrisitanity. its about individual salvation, a personal relationship with jesus. how much can we truly love someone if they dont love our lord and savior? even if we try, even if we say we do love them, it is impossible to undo the fact that we are fundamentally opposed to everything they live for and base their thoughts and actions upon.

I wish we as Christians would learn from the Jews. In the Old Testament times, they did everything together. And at times, if one person screwed up, the whole nation suffered. Case in point: After the conquest of Jericho, the Israelites took the spoils for the Lord, with the instruction not to keep any of the spoils for it is for the Lord's use (Joshua 6:17-18). But when Israel went out to battle with Ai, they lost 36 men because of the sin of Achan, who kept part of the spoils. Noticed what Joshua 7:11-12:

"Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you."

Even though Achan was just one man and alone gulity of this crime, the responsibility went to the whole of Israel and they suffered for it. And even though Achan was punished to death for his sin, the damage had been done.

But we even see an example of this in Acts 5:1-11, when Ananias and Sapphias kept back part of what they vowed to give to the Lord. They lied in that they weren't honest in bringing their whole gift to the Lord, and they both paid the ultimate price for their actions. Why? Because if God let them slide, it would have set a precedent for the church. It was detremental that the spirit of giving set forth in Acts 4:32 be preserved within the unity of the body of Christ, especially so early in the history of the church.

God meant for us to be One Body. Each member is a part of the body, as Paul writes in I Corinthians 12:12-14

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

And later in the same passage Paul talks about how the body suffers:

"That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." - I Cor. 12:25-26

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. If one person sins in the church, the others will be effected by it, either directly or indirectly. Paul dealt with this issue in I Cor 5, where one was committing adultery with his fathers wife, and had to be send out of the church. Had he been allowed to continue to to be in the church, then he would have infected the church with his attitude, and others would be caught up in sin. Sin is never to be permissable in a church, lest it destroy it. God is looking for a church that is obedient to His Word. If we take the attitude that "anything goes" and allow sinful attitudes in the congregation, wouldn't that be the wrong imporession to give people? God is about saving us from our sins, not the promotion of it. Later, that man repented and was restored back into the church.

Salvation is personal. For we are responsible to God for our actions. But through Christ we are united with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ for the purpose of reaching out not only to each other, but also to those in need and those who are lost souls. And as I pointed out in another thread, salvations is not just to get to heaven, but the transformation of our lives to be like Christ. Christ dealt with people at a personal level. Look at the woman at the well (John 4), or Nicodemous (John 3), or the adulterous woman (John 8). But Christ also dealt with whole cities:

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee." - Matthew 11:21-24

Christainity is not a solitary religion. Even in our own salvation, we are bought with a price to serve God. We aren't saved just for the sake of being saved, for even Jesus said:

"...If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." - Matthew 16:24-25

There are only two types of people mentioned in Matthew 25:

"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me..."

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

shadowman, this is what God is looking for. You are right, we can't be selfish when it comes to our salvation. In fact, salvation is all about to saving us from our selfishness. If all we are doing is to avoid Hell, we've missed the point.

 

[Quahom1]

shadowman, this is what God is looking for. You are right, we can't be selfish when it comes to our salvation. In fact, salvation is all about to saving us from our selfishness. If all we are doing is to avoid Hell, we've missed the point.

Wrong...according to Christianity. Absolutely wrong. Christianity states there is only one way directly to the Father, and that is through the Son. That's it. No other way around it.

There is no room for "wiggling". To suggest to Christians otherwise is plain stupid. If a "Christian" were to accept any other way to God...then what is the purpose of being Christian?

If Christian in heart, then you bypass judgement of life or death, and only are judged for heavenly rewards...if not Christian, then you have a 50/50 chance of making it into heaven (nevermind the rewards)

That is the purest/truest version of Christianity that there is.

deal with it. (but not here on the Christianity thread).

v/r

Joshua

 

[lunamoth]

If Christian in heart, then you bypass judgement of life or death, and only are judged for heavenly rewards...if not Christian, then you have a 50/50 chance of making it into heaven (nevermind the rewards)

Hi Q,

Just curious, where do you get the 50/50 chance idea from? If it's based upon righteous living, such odds would not be involved, would they?

l.

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Q,

Just curious, where do you get the 50/50 chance idea from? If it's based upon righteous living, such odds would not be involved, would they?

l.

IAW Christian scripture (Revelation), those will stand before God and be judged based on their merits in life, and the book of life shall be opened to see if their name is in it...

So, one tells his life's story to God, and then God opens the book and looks to see if the one is penned there...I'd say that's a fifty/fifty proposition, at best...

Look all. Christianity has a specific set of rules to be applied before one can call themselves Christian. There are no exceptions (last I checked). Hence when posting on the Christian thread, you would do well to be mindful of the rules of Christianity. You do not have to be Christian, but you will respect Christian thought or matters, while posting here. Or else you might find your posts gone...

v/r

Q
Moderator