Fresh Skins for New Wine

Bruce Michael

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Hi all,


I want to make some comments about the wine in skins.
"No one puts new wine into old wine-skins; if he does the wine will burst the skins..... "
(Matt. 9: 17, Mk. 2: 22; Lk. 5: 37, 8)

The information comes from "Alcohol & the Scriptures" by Edith A.Kerr:
The usual explanation of this parable that new skin-bags were used in order to resist the expansive force of the gas generated by the fermentation does not meet the facts of the case.

For fermentation, grapes were put in vats open to the air even as they are today. The expansive force liberated by grape juice is enormous. "Must", that is, the crushed grapes, is one-fifth glucose. This in fermentation develops 47 times its volume of carbon dioxide which if confined would exert a pressure equivalent to that of 34.3 atmospheres (one atmosphere 15 lbs.). This is equal to about 500 lbs. to the square inch, or a pressure exerted by a modern pressure boiler, or three times the pressure of an average steam raising boiler.

Wine in its first fermentation, if poured into bottles, be they of ox or hog, would burst the skins however new and strong.

That was a fact well known over the centuries in Palestine. "Behold my belly, is as wine which hath no vent," we read in Job 32:19. "Like new bottles it is ready to burst."
The dried skin bottles used in the time of our Lord were however admirably suited to the purpose of preventing fermentation. With their seams well pitched with tar to exclude the air with its yeast spores, fermentation could not take place. It was imperative that new, perfectly
clean skins be used as any dregs left clinging to the inside of the old skin would soon set up a ferment sufficient to ruin the "new wine" being poured in, and burst the bottles.

"New wine" is the translation here of the Greek words "oinos neon" which is equivalent to the Hebrew "tirosh" indicating that the fresh juice of the grapes is being indicated.

All this was common knowledge to his listeners, hence it is clear that when Jesus said, "Fresh skins for new wine", he was not primarily concerned with the matter of the quality of wine, whether alcoholic or otherwise. It was not the nature of the wine he was thinking of, but the
necessity of keeping his new teaching pure from the corroding ferment of the conservatism and self-righteousness of the Pharisees. A "fresh skin", a new attitude, was required for the "new wine" of the Gospel."

"The Romans were ignorant of distilled liquors and the wines they were in the habit of drinking were generally of low alcoholic content."

"In natural wines the alcohol content ranges between 4 and 12 percent."

"Wine" in the Bible can refer to fresh juice, a boiled down cordial, or even raisin cakes.

-Br. Bruce
 
MMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....


Carmenere......
 
Namaste BM,

Is it just me or did I just read this exact same post...word for word even in another thread....are we cutting and pasting old info or providing new?
 
I'm pretty sure I've not posted this before...

s.
 
:rolleyes: One cut and paste deserves another.

NKJV Job 32:18-22
18 For I am full of words;
The spirit within me compels me.
19 Indeed my belly is like wine that has no vent;
It is ready to burst like new wineskins.
20 I will speak, that I may find relief;
I must open my lips and answer.
21 Let me not, I pray, show partiality to anyone;
Nor let me flatter any man.
22 For I do not know how to flatter,
Else my Maker would soon take me away.

And the more we consider the majesty of God, as our Maker, and the more we dread his wrath and justice, the less shall we sinfully fear or flatter men.


NKJV Mark 2:21-22
21No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. 22And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”

It was not usual to take a piece of rough woolen cloth, which had never been prepared, to join to an old garment, for it would not join well with the soft, old garment, but would tear it further, and the rent would be made worse. Nor would men put new wine into old leathern bottles, which were going to decay, and would be liable to burst from the fermenting of the wine; but putting the new wine into strong, new, skin bottles, both would be preserved. Great caution and prudence are necessary, that young converts may not receive gloomy and forbidding ideas of the service of our Lord; but duties are to be urged as they are able to bear them.

It would seem that Edith Kerr needs some biblical context lessons.

Obviously.
 
Hi all,


I want to make some comments about the wine in skins.
"No one puts new wine into old wine-skins; if he does the wine will burst the skins..... "
(Matt. 9: 17, Mk. 2: 22; Lk. 5: 37, 8)

The information comes from "Alcohol & the Scriptures" by Edith A.Kerr:
The usual explanation of this parable that new skin-bags were used in order to resist the expansive force of the gas generated by the fermentation does not meet the facts of the case.

For fermentation, grapes were put in vats open to the air even as they are today. The expansive force liberated by grape juice is enormous. "Must", that is, the crushed grapes, is one-fifth glucose. This in fermentation develops 47 times its volume of carbon dioxide which if confined would exert a pressure equivalent to that of 34.3 atmospheres (one atmosphere 15 lbs.). This is equal to about 500 lbs. to the square inch, or a pressure exerted by a modern pressure boiler, or three times the pressure of an average steam raising boiler.

Wine in its first fermentation, if poured into bottles, be they of ox or hog, would burst the skins however new and strong.

That was a fact well known over the centuries in Palestine. "Behold my belly, is as wine which hath no vent," we read in Job 32:19. "Like new bottles it is ready to burst."
The dried skin bottles used in the time of our Lord were however admirably suited to the purpose of preventing fermentation. With their seams well pitched with tar to exclude the air with its yeast spores, fermentation could not take place. It was imperative that new, perfectly
clean skins be used as any dregs left clinging to the inside of the old skin would soon set up a ferment sufficient to ruin the "new wine" being poured in, and burst the bottles.

"New wine" is the translation here of the Greek words "oinos neon" which is equivalent to the Hebrew "tirosh" indicating that the fresh juice of the grapes is being indicated.

All this was common knowledge to his listeners, hence it is clear that when Jesus said, "Fresh skins for new wine", he was not primarily concerned with the matter of the quality of wine, whether alcoholic or otherwise. It was not the nature of the wine he was thinking of, but the
necessity of keeping his new teaching pure from the corroding ferment of the conservatism and self-righteousness of the Pharisees. A "fresh skin", a new attitude, was required for the "new wine" of the Gospel."

"The Romans were ignorant of distilled liquors and the wines they were in the habit of drinking were generally of low alcoholic content."

"In natural wines the alcohol content ranges between 4 and 12 percent."

"Wine" in the Bible can refer to fresh juice, a boiled down cordial, or even raisin cakes.

-Br. Bruce

an engineer, after my own heart! :D Except, for one tiny detail...grape juice, continues to ferment, even after being put in skins or flasks or what ever container to keep it from going sour. It will eventually convert sugars to alcohol, given time. Even if it sours, it still ferments (as vinegar), and still can and will create pressure from the fermentation.

Hence, the warning about using old skins for new "juice"...;)

addenum: even today's soft drinks, and juices contain alchohol. .05%, is standard, but none the less, I am correct on this issue.

Ever watch a kid at a picnic who has gorged himself on burgers, hotdogs and sodas (as in lots of soda)...??? He/she ain't jumpin' around because of the sugar rush...more like pacified because of the alcohol ingested...and for a kid, .05% is alot, and will catch up to him/her.

Be ware of the picnic outings...you might have a kid who gets buzzed on soda pop...;)
 
>even after being put in skins or flasks or what ever container to keep it >from going sour. It will eventually convert sugars to alcohol, given time. >Even if it sours, it still ferments (as vinegar), and still can and will create >pressure from the fermentation.

Q. I am not a brewer, but what you say above doesn't ring true. If it were so then bottles of wine many years old would be sour. There "must" be a time when fermentation stops.


>He/she ain't jumpin' around because of the sugar rush...more like >pacified because of the alcohol ingested...and for a kid, .05% is alot, and >will catch up to him/her.

More likely the artificial colors and sugar will set him off. Our own bodies produce a small amount of alcohol in the digestion process.

Regards,
Br.Bruce
 
>even after being put in skins or flasks or what ever container to keep it >from going sour. It will eventually convert sugars to alcohol, given time. >Even if it sours, it still ferments (as vinegar), and still can and will create >pressure from the fermentation.

Q. I am not a brewer, but what you say above doesn't ring true. If it were so then bottles of wine many years old would be sour. There "must" be a time when fermentation stops.


>He/she ain't jumpin' around because of the sugar rush...more like >pacified because of the alcohol ingested...and for a kid, .05% is alot, and >will catch up to him/her.

More likely the artificial colors and sugar will set him off. Our own bodies produce a small amount of alcohol in the digestion process.

Regards,
Br.Bruce

LOL, obviously you aren't familiar with "wine" (how it is made).

v/r

Q
 
Hi Bruce —

Acts 2:13-16:
"But others mocking, said: These men are full of new wine. But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you and with your ears receive my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day... "

I would be really surprised, knowing the ingenuity of man, that he had not come up with a way of making alcoholic drinks ... especially since the delights of Bacchus had been the cause of no little scandal for two hundred years.

The Bacchanalia, introduced into Rome c. 200 BC via Greek culture, gained such notoriety that in 186 BC the Senate prohibited the practice unless by special dispensation.

Dionysus is equated with both Bacchus and Liber (also Liber Pater). Liber ("the free one") was a god of fertility and growth, his festival was the Liberalia, celebrated in some myths on March 5 — my birthday!

Whoo-hoo — next year's theme then, and it's gonna be a doozie! Everyone's invited — Q, I elect you as MC for the revels!!!

Thomas
 
Of course they had alcoholic drink in the ancient world, Thomas- and to good purpose.

Acts 2:13-16:
"But others mocking, said: These men are full of new wine. But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you and with your ears receive my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day... "

As I said the term "wine" in the Bible can refer to a lot of items- even raisin cakes.
"New wine" can mean grape juice.


>The Bacchanalia, introduced into Rome c. 200 BC via Greek culture, gained such notoriety that in 186 BC the Senate prohibited the practice >unless by special dispensation.

The Greeks were smart enough not to allow women of childbearing age to take part in the alcoholic revelry- only older women and men took part. They knew that although the human being can resist the deleterious effects of alcohol for a long time, it is very dangerous for the fetus. Considering how the Greeks admired human beauty they must have know the effects.

I have worked with children who had fetal alcohol syndrome, so I am quite familiar with it.


>Whoo-hoo — next year's theme then, and it's gonna be a doozie! >Everyone's invited — Q, I elect you as MC for the revels!!!

Freedom itself is a very important concept for Christians.

Cheers,
Br.Bruce
 
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