Female circumcision

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by Muslimwoman, Jul 3, 2007.

  1. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    I dunno MW, this FGM thing is just the nasty tip of the iceberg when it comes to subjugating women. Speaking only for myself, I am very glad not to have any affiliation with a patriarchal milieu which promotes the subservience of women. I intend that my daughters enjoy freedom of sexuality and expression. How can they be reasonably expected to learn respect for themselves and their bodies if they are denied the freedom to own their own bodies and selves?

    I think I will forgo the extended rant and just leave it there.

    Chris
     
  2. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    MW...I think the most intellectually bankrupt phrase in the above that jumped out at me was " ...there will be no physical drive for the women, only an emotional one;". The last time I checked Masters and Johnson, it is impossible for anybody to have one without the other in a fulfilling sexual episode. That is, of course, unless one or both of the partners are brain dead... Ugh!

    I'm with Tao on this situation as it may personally involve you, take it slow and easy. Your friends here care about you and your welfare my dear.

    flow....:cool:
     
  3. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Thank you both Flow and TE and I do understand your anger Chris, even if we disagree on what daughters should be free to do.

    Something else I find offensive is that when I ask young men here why they prefer european wives one of the reasons is always because "they are in tact and can enjoy sex". Yet these same young men will no doubt marry Egyptian women and grow up to follow the tradition and do this to their daughters.

    There are so many cultural issues here I have learned to accept and some I even prefer to our western ones but as TE said, this may be beyond my flexibility. What I find really scary is, as I have said I am back in the UK now for a while, if I was still at home I may not have even heard of this ban.

    I am so touched that you are worried about me, the worst that could happen is that I get divorced and return to my family in UK. I feel really guilty now because Egypt is a wonderful country and I love the people, so I don't want to paint them in a bad light. They just have this barbaric issue, which to them is anything but barbaric, they feel unable to let go of but nothing on G-d's green earth is going to make me accept it or even sit back quietly and mentally disapprove.
     
  4. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Is it just me, or do these arguments sound eerily similar to those for spaying/neutering your pet, while retaining the pet's ability to be bred? Are women human beings, or are they considered to be animals/pets/breeding machines? :(
     
  5. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    Going off on a close tangent here. This makes me think of the prevalent child psychology of the nineteenth century. It was very strict and ever so cold and mechanical, but it was considered cutting edge modern and scientific in the day. Children have always had a bugger of a time, though. What caught my eye was the thing about learning to endure pain. There is a current of thought among the kiddie shrinks of the nineteenth century that children needed to be subjected to a program of disciplinary self-denial. Maybe this was to toughen them up for a hard life in the mills. Maybe it was just some weird kind of Calvinist self-mortification. I know I got whipped a lot "for my own good" coming up! And I know that came directly from the past through my dad's hand via the belt.

    I think this idea of beating kids and and denying them their sexuality is an interesting thing to look at if one can but get around one's own self defense mechanisms and programming. It's an interesting self perpetuating mechanism by which the perceived sins of the flesh reinforce and sustain the fetishism which creates the dangerous aberration of our natural sexuality in the first place.

    I guess that went a bit further than a close tangent.

    Chris
     
  6. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    MW, I have heard of this before from a previous thread here before you joined C-R. I don't remember the name of it or anything. I couldn't believe it then, and so I went searching and my heart just sank to find out how prevalent it is.

    I have no doubt that if someone had tried to do that to me, my daddy would have personally seen to their demise! Like you, I believe he would have been willing to die first.

    Why on earth would a man rather have a woman who can never be attracted to him in this intimate way? What a blessing these men are missing, especially in the case of a chaste woman who has kept herself this way by choice. Is it not akin to rape for a man to take a woman who does not really desire him? I guess not, if the woman agrees, but these girls don't have any choice. It's one thing for an adult to make these sort of choices, even if I can't fathom such, but it is nothing but slavery to do this to a child.

    I keep trying to find the words I want to say, but they won't come to me. I'm holding your niece in my heart and lifting her up in prayer, and your sister-in-law, too. And you, too, by the way--sometimes I worry about you. I'm afraid you will say the wrong thing to the wrong person and attract trouble to yourself. But I do admire you for speaking out. It can't be an easy thing to do.

    Salaam, dear MW

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  7. KarimK

    KarimK Well-Known Member

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    You won't believe what I can hear at times : "Yeah, European women. They're good for having fun when you're young. But once you want to settle down, get serious, you have to marry a nice, local, Arabic girl. Because you know how these Europeans, they're mostly sluts. You don't want to marry a woman who has had sex with other men... what about your honor?"

    And guess what? These are not the words of elderly stuck-up-living-in-another-age people. These are the words of my friends who are supposed to know better.

    I'd laugh if it wasn't so mind-numbingly stupid. Because everyone knows that the girl needs to be mutilated so as not to have sex before marriage, whereas the guy doesn't need any help and will, without a doubt, stay a virgin until he gets married... Because men, they tend to same themselves for marriage... :rolleyes:

    Honestly, MW, even I have a hard time comprehending most of these "cultural" (eugh) traits... and I'm supposed to be used to it. I have no idea how you can put up with it, it must be very, very hard.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    With all our western attitude and platitudes about what we consider human rights violations and aberrant behavior, we are truly quite hypocritical on these issues.

    I am no cultural anthropologist but seems to me that in most parts of the world a raise in consciousness in this regard came after some economic parity, increase in education and a general rise for most of the population on Maslow's hierarchy.

    We are two centuries into freedom 1.5 into the abolishment of slavery, 1 in women's right to vote, barely .5 in civil rights...ie all people are created equal...

    In the overall scheme of things we are just like an ex-smoker who has only quit for a month telling everyone else they oughta ban smoking everywhere, despite the fact that we were adamant supporters of the negative behavior just recently.

    While it all is awful and something should be done....I think it is like supplying water to the desert by pouring it into the sand...first we need to provide the cups, and cisterns, and pipelines (build steps up maslow's hierarchy)
     
  9. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    What? How? I mean..... *pause*

    How do they have it removed? Who FORCES that?... Like if some Jew(or perhaps other religious person) came up to me and said oh circumcision time, I'd just give him a back hand.... If you are not part of some religious faith and you don't buy into it, why the hell would you have a circumcision formed? And it is kinda different to a male circumcision, that only removes skin.... What you are removing is surley classed as a nerve end?
     
  10. KarimK

    KarimK Well-Known Member

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    That's the point, 17th (what's short for your nick? 17th or Angel? or none? :p). It's not faith, it's tradition. It has nothing to do with religion. Stupidity pretty much ignores religious boundaries.

    Wil, should the guy who just recently stopped smoking refrain from telling others to stop too, just because he was wrong in the past? This isn't about being eurocentric and priggish. It's about basic common sense. Poverty and misery aren't excuses for barbarity.
     
  11. cavalier

    cavalier Well-Known Member

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    Interesting thoughts, especially the conclusion.

    When I was in Kenya a few years ago female circumcision, or Female Genital Mutilation as it was known was a big issue. It was far from the norm but was not uncommon in the more remote areas.
    Thanks to radio, school, church, and NGO campaigns howver, the practice, including its barbarity was being highlighted, and was in the decline.
     
  12. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    17 or 17th is fine.. :)

    Traditions, are not always a good things indeed... But then again, religion to some can be seen as tradition...
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    No but as described in Cav's post what got the smoker to quit was probably education. Telling others to stop never works...giving them reason to, making them understand the benefit.

    What are the good excuses for barbarity?? The west still needs a few.
     
  14. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    gosh, i had no idea tantawi was advocating this... or anything like the 97% figure in egypt... i am frankly appalled. i really sympathise with your situation MW and wish there was something i could do to help - perhaps there is an international association of ex-pat egyptians that knows about it and could raise it with, i don't know, the red crescent or something? which organisation has that sort of moral authority?

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  15. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    oh Lord Jesus what a heart breaking thing. God created us and created that part of a womans body for a reason .. In marriage sex is supposed to be pleasurable for the man and the woman that was a gift from God and these people are stealing that from these women :mad:. the tragedy of this is so horrific. This would be tatamount to removing the entire penis of a man.
     
  16. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Laregely it is done in the home or in a filthy kiosk in the street, using anything from razor blades, kitchen knives and even broken glass - anaesthetic, whats that? The parents force it, the girls are often not told (they tend to be 9 - 11 years), the poor things comes home from school and her mother and assorted female relatives grab her and out it comes. The mind just boggles. There is quite a degree of mistrust between daughter and mother from that point on as you can well imagine.


    Same here Karim, it is still the attitude of young trendy men. My husband is constantly told by his friends, that I am such a nice woman but when is he going to get divorced and get a PROPER wife. It is so insulting for both of us and just shows the ignorance that abounds here. Unfortunatley my husband has few friends now because he almost always lashes out when this is said to him, which is lovely for my honor but does nothing for his friendships. I do worry he will leave himself isolated.
     
  17. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Good points Wil. As you can imagine this is a hot topic at the moment. The Egyptian medical body is suggesting to the government that an outright ban will in fact increase the likelihood of deaths by driving it underground, as it were, rather than stopping it. They want to get funding for an educational program but of course it will take years to change attitudes. I suppose it is still a good thing that everyone seems to be trying to do something at last but I do worry that it will be a flash in the pan and forgotten about next week when something else comes to the political agenda.
     
  18. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    This is what makes me so angry Faithfulservant. The Quran states that we must not hurt ourselves, as our bodies belong to Allah, held in trust and will be resurrected for the next life. Most scholars tell us that tatooing and body peircing is not allowed because of this reason - so how do they reconcile mutilation????

    This is such a problem BB. The WHO and a German group have been working for years to try to stop this but are usually met with "we will not have european standards imposed upon us". So it becomes an issue about political control and the girls get forgetten in the struggle. Change is going to have to come from within, in order for it to be accepted. It is great news that the Grand Mufti has finally spoken out and said it is unIslamic. Whilst most think that he is the puppet of Mobarak (which may to an extent be true) he is 'the' religious authority here, so his fatwa is binding. My fingers are crossed that he will get support from other middle eastern Muslim countries now to quash the opinions of the supporters of this practice. I think a lot will depend on the line the Muslim Brotherhood and similar groups take, as to whether the people actually start to recognise it is an unIslamic practice.
     
  19. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Please don't worry about me, the worst they could do is kill me (not very bloody likely, more likely to just think of me as a typical european slut) and if they do kill me I will know I died trying to defend Allah and His true teaching. I do wonder what these people are going to say to Allah on the Day of Judgement in their defense?!

    Salaam
     
  20. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Just found this, which shows what we are up against. It is a short recording of a tv discussion in Egypt. Both men are respected scholars at Al Azhar and have completely opposing views on this subject, yet use the same source to prove their case (ie the Sunnah).

    YouTube - The Terror of the Female Circumcision in Islam I=
     

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