Female circumcision

One of the argument is that the Western woman is barren :)rolleyes:) because she is uncircumcised. And Muslim women bear more children because they're circumcised.

oh, and may I just say LOL to the last statement? I think it's the funniest thing I ever heard in my life. In the West, 100 % (no, really?!) of prostitutes are not circumcised.
Therefore we can deduce : the clitoris is the root of all evil in the world. It leads men to rape, lechery, adultery. Hence, the fact that women really are evil and we should remove that really sinful part of the body (that we still consider holy, by the way, but whatever) because it's the right thing to do.

Yay, let's go rip off the clits of all the raped women and prostitute, that'll solve eeeeeeeeeeeverything! Peace on earth! Happiness everywhere! Oh, Joy!

God, it makes me want to puke.

And this guy is supposed to be a scholar. I would feel REALLY bad if I were to justify FGM to a WOMAN and then argue with her. What an insult to her. What an f-ing lack of respect. :mad:

Muslimwoman, I have a question. What do you think of the Sunnah? I always thought the Sunnah was somewhat of a rip-off. I don't know Islamic history really, but the Sunnah always sounded fake to me. Shouldn't we (and these scholars) go back to the actual Qur'an to decide what should and should not be done? I mean there is absolutely no way of verifying if the hadiths are authentic or not. Wouldn't it be wiser to go back to the Qur'an that is, hopefully, not influenced and dirtied by political agendas and random barbaric customs and such? Same thing goes for the Sharia. I just don't get it. The guy at some point says something about the Sharia.

But the Sharia isn't even pure Islamic law! There is no such thing as Sharia in the Qur'an! WTF! :mad:
 
This is such a problem BB. The WHO and a German group have been working for years to try to stop this but are usually met with "we will not have european standards imposed upon us".
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Oh, gee, what were they saying about how it was necessary because Egyptian women have oversized clitorises and this brings them into the norm? Unbelievable. :rolleyes:
 
KarimK said:
One of the argument is that the Western woman is barren :)rolleyes:) because she is uncircumcised. And Muslim women bear more children because they're circumcised.
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So it wouldn't have anything to do with contraception then?!

KarimK said:
oh, and may I just say LOL to the last statement? I think it's the funniest thing I ever heard in my life. In the West, 100 % (no, really?!) of prostitutes are not circumcised.
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Oh now be fair he did give proof of this, because only 90% of prostitues in Egypt have been circumcised. So that means that 10% of them have the sinful clitoris - case closed, absolute proof. Sound mathmatical logic there.....:confused: I think I need some asprin and a lie down. I note they didn't discuss the issue of why Egypt has prostitutes - perhaps they only service male european visitors, a sort of tourist attraction welcome gift????

KarimK said:
Therefore we can deduce : the clitoris is the root of all evil in the world. It leads men to rape, lechery, adultery. Hence, the fact that women really are evil and we should remove that really sinful part of the body (that we still consider holy, by the way, but whatever) because it's the right thing to do.
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I shall forgive you for this because you are young, so perhaps you haven't done the 'clitoris - root of all evil' course in school yet. I watched one on youtube from Africa and the woman midwife/doctor/clitoris remover person was explaining that if the clitoris is not removed it moves up the body and comes through the head (out of the ears, down the nose, etc). I have to say I hate it when I sit in an english cafe and the woman at the next table suddenly starts oozing clitoris from her head. Perhaps a little education required here then. It is just beyond belief what people in 2007 still believe.

KarimK said:
Muslimwoman, I have a question. What do you think of the Sunnah?
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Let us just say I do not rely on it. An example, I recently read hadiths that said the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said 'a carpet in your home is worth more than a barren woman'. It turns out they are not authentic, so my question is why are they still in the books? Can you imagine how many barren women, over the centuries, have suffered because of this hadith? Also, what an insult to our Beloved Prophet (pbuh), who himself had 8 wives that did not bear children, to attribute such foul lies to him. How many Muslim communities are there in the world, without access to scholars, that simply read and believe this? It is an insult to our Prophet, our women and our religion, so why is it still there?????

Bukhari created his books of hadith by finding every hadith he could and sifting through until he found those he believed authentic - may Allah bless him for his work, or heavens knows what oddities we would now have. He threw out hundreds of thousands. So why, when scholars now tell us there are so many unauthentic hadiths, even in Bukhari, does a group of scholars not write a new book of hadith which they deem authentic?

Don't get me wrong there are some wonderful, wonderful hadiths that are obviously from our Beloved Prophet (pbuh), may I share one that always jumps out at me:

Volume 8, Book 74, Number 253k:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: A man asked the Prophet, "What Islamic traits are the best?" The Prophet said, "Feed the people, and greet those whom you know and those whom you do not know."
​
This is my Islam, this is why I converted because amongst the manmade is the truly inspired. I try to live by the Quran alone, if Allah cannot give us the right path then who can - nobody. Google for islam+the closing of the gates, it is quite an eye opener.

I once read a brilliant article by a Muslim chap, it was entitled "I love Islam, I just hate Muslims". It sounds awful but he was simply saying that we are so wrapped up in "which foot to enter a house with" and "how to keep our women under control" that we have lost the principles of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), i.e., tolerence, care for our family (women included), charity, jihad (the stuggle with oneself), etc. I had to agree with him 100%.

Salaam
 
seattlegal said:
Oh, gee, what were they saying about how it was necessary because Egyptian women have oversized clitorises and this brings them into the norm? Unbelievable. :rolleyes:
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It does beg the question - if 97% of women are circumcised then what do they use as a comparison for the norm? Nip to europe and have a peek - ah yes, an educational outing to the Soho strip clubs. It just beggers belief. Another video stated that "so many" girls call this scholar because they go on the metro in tight jeans and feel aroused when the metro jiggles about. So was the answer "wear loose clothes not tight jeans"? Nope, it was "go to have your clitoris removed."


I am now truely confused and dismayed about a new development. I spoke with my husband for 4 hours by webcam tonight and despite his admirable attempt to avoid this subject, I am like a terrier when I get hold of something. I want to say first that my husband is devoted to me and he is a good man, with a good heart - just a couple of cultural educational issues. So I would like to recount a short portion of our conversation:

Husband "but what can I do habeby, everybody here do it",

Me "tell me should a wife enjoy sex, not just the husband?"

Husband "of course, it is in the Quran and Sunnah. Wife and husband should enjoy equally."

Me "but when you cut the girl this way she can never enjoy sex all her life."

Husband "Don't be a crazy person habeby, it is the same as for man, just cut a small piece of skin."

At this point I sent him medical pictures of this operation. Despite his olive skin he went totally white.

Husband "this is propaganda by the west sah? I call my Mum" (sah means correct)

A couple of minutes later I watched my poor hubby crying with horror. He honestly had no idea and thought it was a slight nip, tuck. Apparently this, whilst approved of by the men, is a "womens thing", which men do not get involved in and clearly have no idea what is actually done. Now, that in no way excuses anything, if you are a father surely you want to know what is being done to your daughter but it blew my mind that they are so ignorant about it. That said, I have met plenty of western men that have no idea where the clitoris is, so a bit of ignorance there as well then.

It will be interesting to see what my husband says to his sister tomorrow, re her daughter.
 
muslimwoman, ur a star... god bless u for trying to prevent ur niece experiencing this... u made me laugh when u spoke about how annoying it was to sit in the cafe and watch clitoris oozing out of the western women's heads...

to me, it seems u are doing all u can, ur raising the issue amongst friends and family, giving people the facts, and it is up to them what they do next... ur only other option is to bring her to the west and have her seek asylum, which would mean that she wouldnt be returned to egypt to be mutilated, but which might mean u get a lengthy prison sentence and the girl possibly grows up in a childrens home where she will be prey to child molesters, low educational attainment, teen pregnacy and drug addiction...

as most women do not orgasm through penetrative sex; to remove a large part of their sexuality and then expect them to have regular sex, it's sickening... I have also heard that circumsized women are more likely to suffer urinary tract infections and are more prone to incontinence...

great- no clitoris, and I stink of wee? how's that for subjegation?
 
Namaste MW....Wow, hurrah...proof....education. The fact that the men have no idea what is happening....just that bit of education in itself will raise an uproar...

Question, is it customary in Egypt to circumcise men?
 
Muslimwoman said:
This is my Islam, this is why I converted because amongst the manmade is the truly inspired. I try to live by the Quran alone, if Allah cannot give us the right path then who can - nobody. Google for islam+the closing of the gates, it is quite an eye opener.

I once read a brilliant article by a Muslim chap, it was entitled "I love Islam, I just hate Muslims". It sounds awful but he was simply saying that we are so wrapped up in "which foot to enter a house with" and "how to keep our women under control" that we have lost the principles of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), i.e., tolerence, care for our family (women included), charity, jihad (the stuggle with oneself), etc. I had to agree with him 100%.
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Do you refer to the closing of the gates of ijtihad (spelling?) ? It is an eye-opener. It helps us separate what is political or traditional from what is in fact religious. Islam becoming a reactionary faith because of political necessities.

Have you read Irshad Manji's wonderful book, The Trouble with Islam today? I disagree with her on a lot of issues, but it's a real breath of fresh air to see a Muslim so courageously shake Islamic doctrines from their apathy. I have to say this book reconciled me with Islam... I swear, when I finished reading it, I was THIS close to converting :D

and I agree 100% with the others : I'm new here, but it really seems to me you're a wonderful person. I think that showing the pictures to your husband is going to go a long way. I hope you'll manage to do something for your niece.
 
Francis king said:
but which might mean u get a lengthy prison sentence and the girl possibly grows up in a childrens home where she will be prey to child molesters, low educational attainment, teen pregnacy and drug addiction...
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Thanks Francis you have talked me out of that one. Jail I could handle but you are right I would not want her to be subject to some of our western 'traits'.

Francis king said:
great- no clitoris, and I stink of wee? how's that for subjegation?
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I know this is a revolting subject but it made me think. I have noticed a slight aroma with some women, of all classes and have always put it down to bad hygiene standards but perhaps there is more to it.
 
wil said:
Question, is it customary in Egypt to circumcise men?
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Yes all men are circumcised in childhood and this is a religious duty but as all are circumcised there must be an element of culture mixed in, as not all are Muslim.

I was fascinated to read an article about male circumcision in USA, the report said up to 60% of men there are circumcised. Obviously no idea how true this is but it was a surprise to read.
 
KarimK said:
Do you refer to the closing of the gates of ijtihad (spelling?) ? It is an eye-opener. It helps us separate what is political or traditional from what is in fact religious. Islam becoming a reactionary faith because of political necessities.
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Yes that is what I was refering to. I found, from what I have read, that Islam has simply stagnated since that time and has left Islam in quite a state of confusion. Time inevitably marches on, as does society, so how can wee remain in the dark ages? I don't want to drink alcahol, run around half naked or dance the night away in disco's but I also don't want to live in the past. Many people talk of the re-emergence of Islam as a great cultural and scientific nation but this can never happen if we do not allow ourselves to move forward.

KarimK said:
Have you read Irshad Manji's wonderful book, The Trouble with Islam today? I disagree with her on a lot of issues, but it's a real breath of fresh air to see a Muslim so courageously shake Islamic doctrines from their apathy. I have to say this book reconciled me with Islam... I swear, when I finished reading it, I was THIS close to converting :D
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I haven't read it, so thanks for the recommendation. As soon as I finish here I shall go and order it.
 
You might also cite to those that might listen that this practice pre-dates Islam and is thus a pagan practice?

"
The history of female circumcision, also known as female genital mutilation (FGM), has been traced back as far as the 2nd century BC, when a geographer, Agatharchides of Cnidus, wrote about female circumcision as it occurred among tribes residing on the western coast of the Red Sea (now modern-day Egypt). Based on current geographic locations of FGM, the practices seems to have originated in Egypt and has spread south and west. ​
Origins
Some believe that female circumcision was rooted in the Pharaonic belief in the bisexuality of the gods. According to this belief, mortals reflected this trait of the gods; every individual possessed both a male and a female soul. The feminine soul of the man was located in the prepuce of the penis; the masculine soul of the woman was located in the clitoris. For healthy gender development, the female soul had to be excised from the man and the male soul from the woman. Circumcision was thus essential for boys to become men and girls to become women.
Prior to the rise of Islam, Egyptians once raided territories to the south for slaves, and Sudanic slaves were exported to areas along the Persian Gulf. Reports from the 15th and 16th centuries suggest that female slaves were sold at a higher price if they were ''sewn up" in a way that made them unable to give birth. After the region converted to Islam, this practice was no longer possible because Islam prohibits Muslims from enslaving others of their own religious beliefs."

Taken from this site: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ehtoddch/politics/historyfgm.html


What really amazes me is that any man would want to have sex with a woman who did not enjoy it. That a whole nation of woman tolerate this is really incredible. But in my experience of women I see often that it is the older infertile women who are often the most enthusiastic, even bloodthirsty, zealots when it comes to anything to do with the fertile younger members of their own sex. It's a mad world.

TE
​
 
Tao_Equus said:
What really amazes me is that any man would want to have sex with a woman who did not enjoy it. That a whole nation of woman tolerate this is really incredible. But in my experience of women I see often that it is the older infertile women who are often the most enthusiastic, even bloodthirsty, zealots when it comes to anything to do with the fertile younger members of their own sex. It's a mad world.
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Thanks so much for the info TE, the more I can find out the more I can educate.

You make a very valid point here, perhaps the older women forget their own youth or maybe it is just spite and jealousy (it was done to me so it will damn well be done to you). What I don't get in all this is the man's perspective. We hear these stupid old farts supporting this practice but why. Clearly their wives have always been the equivalent to a blow up doll, so do they really think this is a woman's role and want this for their daughter?
 
Tao_Equus said:
...For healthy gender development, the female soul had to be excised from the man and the male soul from the woman. Circumcision was thus essential for boys to become men and girls to become women...
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[sarcasm] Which has obviously resulted in a greater understanding, communication, and empathy between the two genders? :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]
 
Depressing Update

My husband went to see his sister, armed with all sorts of info I had sent. Her answer was "maybe it is not Islamic, maybe it is now banned, maybe it will damage my daughter for life but......it is our tradition, I am still alive so it can't be so bad. You want everybody to think your niece is a slut?". Ho hum. Hubby has asked me to go to see her when I get back to Egypt. Not sure I feel good about pitting my husband against his family, so probably best if he leaves it to me.

My current thinking is that I shall find a well respected doctor that diagrees with this practice and take her to speak to the doctor, to see if he/she can persuade her.

I suppose I was hoping for too much, that they would say "oh yes she is right let's stop this now".
 
My heart goes out to all those in this situation...

This is part of what we were discussing in another thread about Power to the People....who is keeping this tradition alive?? The people...and it will be the few that can see through the 'veil' who will change it...it will go against popular public opinion and two or three generations later everyone will be aghast that it ever happened...and many will deny that it was an Islamic tradition.
 
wil said:
My heart goes out to all those in this situation...

This is part of what we were discussing in another thread about Power to the People....who is keeping this tradition alive?? The people...and it will be the few that can see through the 'veil' who will change it...it will go against popular public opinion and two or three generations later everyone will be aghast that it ever happened...and many will deny that it was an Islamic tradition.
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Thank you Wil, wise words indeed. I just wish I was alive at the end of the process, not the beginning (I an be a coward somrtimes :eek:).

Wil, have you ever heard a song by Randy Travis called Points of Light? If not please rush out and get it. That is what I feel we are talking about here, tiny points of light in the darkness and the more points of light we can create the nearer we will come to a time of enlightenment.

Bless you
 
It is a cycle of abuse passed from one generation to the next... out of ignorance calling it tradition. The mother does not know what she is missing wouldnt it be wonderful if she could have an orgasm then she would know what she was depriving her daughter of.. sorry for being crude but thats the only way I could think of.
 
Faithfulservant said:
It is a cycle of abuse passed from one generation to the next... out of ignorance calling it tradition. The mother does not know what she is missing wouldnt it be wonderful if she could have an orgasm then she would know what she was depriving her daughter of.. sorry for being crude but thats the only way I could think of.
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Don't be sorry, it is biology and you are right, it is not as though she can ask about this from her mother or grandmother or great grandmother or .............

Of course the problem is the women are so brainwashed that if they had an orgasm they would no doubt feel guilty and dirty. Ho hum.
 
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