Only Muslims allowed in heaven?

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Muslimwoman, Jul 27, 2007.

  1. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    as salaam aleykum wr wb

    On another thread brother farhan posted a link to answer questions about Islam. I was very interested in the following and would like to know others opinions on this interpretation and what do you think the writer means by unfortunaltey?:


    "Do Muslims believe that everyone will burn in Hell-fire except Muslims"?

    Simple response is "NO". Unfortunately it's not up to Muslims to decide who goes to hell-fire and who doesn't. That decree is going to come from Allah SWT and our belief is on the basis of what Allah swt tells us in Quran, "All sins can be forgiven except Shirk (creating partners with Allah)". Muslims don't have a free-ride either. Our belief is that Paradise is for people who are pure. What does that mean? In order for anyone to enter paradise he/she must be free of sins. Now that process is multi-faucet. The tribulations that one goes through in life will wash-away some of the sins. Some of the sins will be forgiven for the pain & sufferings of death and the grave. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said that the Day of Reckoning will be a very tough day. The horrors of that day that one would have to encounter will take away some of the sins. Then Allah SWT is capable of forgiving any other delinquencies, if there is still some left then the sole would have to spend
    some time in hell to get purified. But as long as one sincerely believes in one-ness of Allah swt then the possibility of Paradise is there. This is a very vast topic that scholars have written books about, so I know I can't do justice with it in this limited space. Bottom line is that according to the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) there will be people in paradise that were not from his Ummah.
     
  2. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    9
  3. Francis king

    Francis king New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol... by scholars, no less... it must be fact, then...
     
  4. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    Thank you for the link Abdullah, I try to avoid that site because of the posters that put "muslims do not grass on muslims" on their posts. I think in this day and age of terrorism that Muslims must protect the innocent, whoever they are, against extremist violence and should not be encouraged to protect extreme and violent people. However, I did read the thread thank you.

    This was the sentence that stood out the most for me but of course seems to go against dawah:

    As for the details, we should concern ourselves with our own fate: Allah will ask us about ourselves, not about what He should do with others.”

    So many posts said that it all depends if a person has received the 'correct interpretation' of Islam, which rather worries me, as I am finding it a nightmare to find the correct interpretation, so what hope have non-Mulsims got?

    I also found it very interesting how traditional scholars differ so much in opinion to western scholars (even those born of arabic heritage but living in the west). Have not made my mind up yet whether I think this is because the traditional scholars simply follow a given interpretation that may have been wrong for centuries and the western scholars read it differently without the cultural input or if the western scholars are just reading how they want it to be?!
    Such a conundrum for us followers! :confused:

    Salaam
     
  5. Sean H.

    Sean H. Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd be interested in seeing Quotes from the Qur'an on this subject rather than scholarly opinions.
     
  6. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    Welcome to CR Sean and thank you for your comment.

    This is one of my difficulties Sean, I read the Quran and to me there are numerous verses that state that good people from any faith will be judged fairly. The Quran tells us that had G-d wanted to make us all one nation He would have done so, and on Judgement Day He will tell us the difference between us. However, I am told that I am misinterpreting the verses ..... or not, depending on the scholars opinion. It just makes it all so difficult.

    I shall have to go with my heart/gut on this one and believe that Allah will be fair to everyone, as He promised He would.

    Salaam
     
  7. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    9
    Hi Sean H,

    The Scholarly opinions regarding this matter is only two.

    1] All non-Muslims who die as non-Muslims will go to hell. [except children maybe, and regardnig non-Muslim children [who die as children], we say "Allah knows best", for there is a difference of opinion about them]

    2] Any non-Muslim who hears a clear message of Islam [and not jsut the distorted stuuf you hear on the media] and who thereafter dies as a non-muslim, goes to hell. And those who die while not having heard a clear message of Islam, they could be put to a test on the Day of Judgment, or they could be judged on their fitrah [the inclination towards good, which all humans are born with...]

    Both these opinion are strong opinions and valid accroding to the consensus of the Scholars.

    And here are the evidences from the Quran:

    "If any one desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost." (Surah 3:85).

    "For any that disobey Allah and His Messenger [to the extent where their actions or beliefs constitutes to rejecting Islam/being a non-Muslim] - for them is Hell, where they will dwell forever" [ 72:23]

    "Lo those who disbelieve/reject [Islam]..Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to a straight path, except the path to hell, where they will dwell forever..." [4/168]

    "Those who reject faith [Islam]..then die rejecting..Allah will not forgive them" [47/34]

    Those who disbelieve [in Islam, the Quran, the Prophet Muhammed [sm]], among the people of the book [the Jews and the Christians] and among the idolators, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein [forever], they are the worst of creatures" [98:6]

    [this one's from the Sunnah]: Narrated Abu Hurairah [ra], Allah's messenger [sm] said: "By Him in Who's hands Muhammed's [SM] soul is, there is none from amongst the Jews and the Christians who hears about me and then dies withuot believing in the Message which I have been sent [the Quran], but he will be from the dwellers of the hell-fire" [Sahih Muslim, vol 1, hadith #240]

    none argue concerning the revelations of Allah except the disbelievers [kaafirs]" [40/4] [so if anyone argues that the Quran is not the word of God, then he/she is a kaafir]

    And if ye are in doubt concerning that which WE have revealed unto OUR slave, then produce a surah of the like thereof..and if ye do it not - and ye can never do it, then guard yourself against the fire that has been prepared for disbelievers..." [2:23-24]

    "...they are in doubt concerning MY [OWN] Message [the Quran], Nay! but they have not yet tasted MY punishment"! [38/8]


    "But those who dsbelieve will have utter ruin and HE will make their actions go astray" [47:8]

    "As for any of you...who die as a disbeliever, there actions will come to nothing in this world and the hereafter, they are the companions of the fire, remaining in it timelessy, forever" [2:217]


    2.89: And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on Kafirun.

    [in the above verse, it is verry clear that Allah cursed Jews, for rejecting the Quran [which verified the Torah...] and the Prophet Muhammad [saw], and called them Kaafirs [rejectors of faith/disbelievers]. Many other versus attest to the fact that a kaafir burns in hell for all eternity [if he/she dies while still benig a kaafir]. Simmilary, who ever rejects Islam, the Quran or the prophet Muhammad [saw], will suffer the same fate...]

    Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed. -- Sura 4:48

    Allah forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right). -- Sura 4:116

    In the above versus, Allah says He does not forgive shirk [joining other Gods/partners with Allah.

    9: [SIZE=+1]39:1. They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! [/SIZE]

    The above verse is claer enough, but here is an explanation by the Prophet [saw] of how exactly they have taken their priests and Rabbis to be Lords [gods/partners to God] besides Allah:

    On the authority of Adil Ibn Hatim [ra], it is reported that he heard the the Messenger of Allah [sm] reciting the verse:

    "They [Jews and Christians] took their Rabbi's and their Priests to be their Lords besides Allah..." [Quran 9: 31]

    "...and I said to him: "We dont worship them". He [the Messenger [sm]] said: "Do they not forbid what Allah has permitted you and do you not then forbid it [to yourselves]?, and do they not make permissable for you what Allah has forbidden and do you not then make it permissable [to yourselves]"?, I replied "certainly!". He [sm] said: "That is worshipping them" [Narrated by At-Tirmidhi who graded it as well-authentic [hasan]]

    So it is established from these verry clear sources that when people start obeying and beleiving others in what Allah has made haraam, as halaal and what Allah ahs made halaal as haraam, then that is a from of shirk, thus all non-Muslims are commiting one form of shirk or another, so according to the Quran, they will not be forgiven.


    [SIZE=+1]7:40. Lo! they who deny Our revelations and scorn them, for them the gates of heaven will nor be opened not will they enter the Garden until the camel goeth through the needle's eye. Thus do We requite the guilty.[/SIZE]

    my words: And a camel can never go through the eye of the needle.


    Peace.
     
  8. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    Salaam Abdullah

    I am very pleased that it will be Allah that judges us all on the Day of Judgement and not the scholars.

    Zeras posted this link for a lecture by Dr Badawi and I watched all 7, I find he makes very good points and his interpretation of the Quran seems sound to my mind:

    YouTube - Commonly Misunderstood Qur'anic Texts- Dr Jamal Badawi (1/7)

    Interestingly he speaks of many of the verses you have quoted and of course one of the things he points out so clearly is how wrong it is to use cut and past from the Quran as ths often leads to misinterpretation, as the context can easily be lost.

    Salaam
     
  9. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    9
    Assalamualikum sis

    When the Scholars say "only Allah knows who is going to paradise and who is going to hell", what they mean is that, only Allah knows what the seal of a persons life will be, i.e, wether a person will die while being a Muslim [because a kaafir/non-Muslim can even convert in the last moments of his/her life, and even a Muslim can utter the words of kufr [Allah forbid] just before his death, thus in that sense, only Allah knows what a persons fate in the hereafter will be.

    If you can find any statement of an Islamic Scholar that says "If a person rejects a clear message of Islam and dies as a non-Muslim, there is a chance that he may go to paradise", then please quote it.

    There are a few sayings that I heard back in the early 90's, but i havn't heard one single Scholar, or seen a single hadith backing these sayings up, but I still keep an open mind regardnig these sayings...

    These sayings are as follows:

    Allah is so mericfull that He will even forgive some non-Muslims on the Day of Judgement.

    events such as the following will take place on the Day of Judgement:

    There will be a non-Muslim person who will see a muslim person who he/she helped one day, that person will approach the muslim and say, "hey remember that day you asked me for a glass of water and i gave you it...that helped you on your way so please ask Allah to forgive me and save me from hell...the muslim will beseech Allah and Allah will forgive the non-Muslim and save him from hell.

    There was a non-Muslim on earth who remained a non-Muslim all his life [i.e. died as a non-Muslim] and one day, while he went to the market with his son, during the month of Ramadan, his son ate something...the man scolded his son saying, "how dare you eat in front of all the muslims who are hungry from fasting!" and stopped his son from eating...thus in the process, respecting one of the Farraidhs [obligatory command/worship] of Allah, and just for that reason Allah will forgive this non-Muslim and save him from hell.

    Salaam.
     
  10. Neemai

    Neemai that's my Boss in the pic

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2007
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    0
    What about followers of Christ or Judaism - are they generally expected to not be allowed into Heaven because they followed a different prophet, even if sincerely?

    What of people who worship God as a universal being, but without ascribing any labels to Him?

    ... ?

    Neemai :)
     
  11. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    wa aleykum salaam

    Forgive me but I shall take the word of Allah over any scholar, alive or dead. Allah tells us in the Quran that He alone shall judge everyone. If you wish to believe that means that Allah will Judge us according to our nametag, then that is for you to believe.

    So the scholars are deciding what consitutes a person that has submitted to Allah? Wow, call me a coward but personally I would prefer to leave that decision up to Allah Himself.

    I can do much better than that, here are the words of Allah (swt), if you prefer to take the words of the scholars over those of Allah (swt) then I can only wish you good luck with that decision. This is the entire Sura Al-Infitar (it is Pickthals translation):

    082.001
    When the heaven is cleft asunder,

    082.002
    When the planets are dispersed,

    082.003
    When the seas are poured forth,

    082.004
    And the sepulchres are overturned,

    082.005
    A soul will know what it hath sent before (it) and what left behind.

    082.006
    O man! What hath made thee careless concerning thy Lord, the Bountiful,
    please note this does not say Oh believers, which as you must know is normal in the Quran when referring to the Ummah.

    082.007
    Who created thee, then fashioned, then proportioned thee?

    082.008
    Into whatsoever form He will, He casteth thee.

    082.009
    Nay, but ye deny the Judgment.

    082.010
    Lo! there are above you guardians,

    082.011
    Generous and recording,

    082.012
    Who know (all) that ye do.
    I feel it is safe to assume that would include "speaking for Allah" on matters that no human can even imagine.

    082.013
    Lo! the righteous verily will be in delight.
    Does this say the righteous believers or righteous Muslims?

    082.014
    And lo! the wicked verily will be in hell;
    Does this say the non-believers or non-Muslims?

    082.015
    They will burn therein on the Day of Judgment,

    082.016
    And will not be absent thence.

    082.017
    Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Day of Judgment is!

    082.018
    Again, what will convey unto thee what the Day of Judgment is!

    082.019
    A day on which no soul hath power at all for any (other) soul. The (absolute) command on that day is Allah's.

    So if you can just point out for me where this Sura, pertaining solely to The Day of Judgement, says that only righteous Muslims will be entered into Jannah? Also if you have any scholars opinions that abbrogate the word of Allah, I would be astonished and amused to read them.

    Allah is very specific in the Quran when he is giving a Message to the Ummah, He refers to us specifically before instructing us. Why then do you think this Sura does not do so? Why does the Sura about the Day of Judgement not state which 'religions' will be permitted into heaven? Or point out that unless you have embraced Islam you are doomed to hell?

    Clearly Allah Himself has told us He will be the Judge of us, of every one of us and He tells us He will do this fairly. Maybe only righteous Muslims will be permitted to enter Jannah or maybe all good believeing people will, ONLY Allah knows. But for my money I shall leave that decision entirely to Allah and not try to 'interpret' what He means or 'guess' what He will decide.

    Perhaps you could explain to me the hadiths regarding the prostitute that gave water to a thirsty dog and was forgiven by Allah. There is nothing in the hadith to suggest she was Muslim or that she repented for her sins.

    Sorry brother but I feel it is a very dangerous and arrogant path to travel, in deciding for ourselves what Allah will decide on Judgement Day.

    Salaam
     
  12. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    Neemai

    Please read the Sura (chapter) I have pasted in the above post. It is not my interpretation or Abdullah's, it is the translation from Arabic of the word of G-d Himself. I have quoted the entire chapter without changing a single word, which you can check here:

    USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

    This Sura talks solely about Judgement Day and I shall leave you to make of it what you will.

    Salaam
     
  13. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    9
    Hi neemai,

    any person that followed their respective prophet, before the advent of the Prophet muhammad [saw], will enter heaven. But after the advent of the prophet Muhammad [saw], all other previously revealed religions have been abrogated, thus whoever hears of the prophet [saw] and does not accept his message, i.e, does not convert to Islam, shall be doomed to hell.

    Please read posts #9 and 13 on the "How does one prevent religious arrogance in Islam? thread and inshAllah a more elaborate explanation and evidences to back it up, can be found there.

    Hope that helps

    Peace :)
     
  14. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    9
    Salaam my dear sister muslimwoman,

    Just previously you posted a comment of Dr jamal Badawi saying how it is important to put Quranic verses into their correct context, and now you seem to be emphasising just verses without their context! :D

    Allow me to be more clear and elaborate on this issue sis, so that there can be no chance for misunderstanding inshAllah.

    Many Muslims too will go to hell, but one day or another, when their sins are purged, they will be admitted into Paradise.

    Kaafirs [rejectors of islam] will remain in hell-fire for all eternity.

    As Dr Jamal Badawai said, the Quranic verses has to be put into context with other versus and the Sunnah, and then the right interpretation emerges.

    There are only two kinds of people that derive opinions from the Quran; one is the experts of Deen, who have all the contextual insights to interpret correctly and then theres the laymen who despite his extremely shallow insight into the Islamic texts and his ignorance in the sciences that are neccessary for acurate interpretation [such as that he has to be a master of the Arabic Language, etc], and despite him being told that it is a major sin for him to opine independently, he arrogantly/foolishly opines independently from the experts and convinces [decieves] himself that he is right.

    So we can take the words of the experts or the ignorant laymen regarding the Deen of Islam.

    I choose to follow and learn from the experts.

    And i have allready mentioned the only two views between the experts regarding this issue.

    And we dont have to follow them blindly regarding this matter iether, for the evidence in the Quran for these views are clear...

    AHle Sunnah [Sunni Islam] Creed is made up of two Creeds; The Ashari one and matarudi one.

    Both these Creeds have only verry little differences between them and they have been accepted by the consensus to be both valid.

    The hanafi's follow the Matarudi Creed ands at least half of the muslims of the world are Hanafi's.

    And according to imaam Matarudi, even if a person has not been given the message of islam, then that person should have come to monothiesm via the usage of his intellect, and if he does, he will be spared from punishment or otherwise not [true monothiests [not talking about a disguised form of polythiesm such as the 'trinity conception' here] that havn't heard about Islam are Muslims]. Thus each and every non-Muslim who has heard about Islam and dies as a non-Muslim, their abode will be hell where they will abide forever, and any non-Muslim who has not heard about islam and is not a conceptual monothiest, will go to hell too.

    According to imaam Ashari, only those who have heard about Islam in it's undistorted form, and thereafter dont become Muslims and die as non-Muslims, will die as kaafirs who's only abode will be hell.

    There is a difference of opinion amongst the ashari's regarding how much a person has to hear of islam to be considered as one who has been given a clear message of it; some may opine as less as "La Ilaha Illellah, Muhammad, Rasulullah" [there is no God except Allah, and muhammad [saw] is Allah's Messenger], and some may include the clearing up of some distortions such as, terorrism is not from the islamic teachings, etc].

    There is even a difference of opinion regarding what will happen to those who have not heard a clear message of Islam while on earth; some say they will be put to a test on the day of judgement, and others say they will get automatic amnesty, but in regards to wether any non-Muslim will go to heaven or not, hear is a Scholarly view:

    regarding a hanafi choosing an aqeeda; maturidi or ashari? he wants to choose ashari as non muslims will eneter paradise; this the question

    and the answer given to this is

    As-salaamu Alaykum

    I first would like to correct you in saying that the Ash'ari school of
    thought does not say that the nonMuslims will go to Jannah. But it
    says that it is possible for Allah to send them to Jannah (which means
    going against His Word that he will never forgive them). The Maturidi
    school of though says that it is not possible for not muslims to go to
    Jannah as that would entail Allah going against His Word and this is
    not possible.

    At the end of the entire arguement both schools of thought concede
    that the nonMuslims will never enter paradise. There is a third
    opinion amongst the scholars that Allah will not allow the nonMuslims
    to enter Jannah but He through His mercy will end their torment by
    erasing their existance. This view however is extremely weak as in the
    Qur'an the words Daaiman Abadan have been used for their staying in
    Hell also (Surah Jinn).

    Ultimately it would not make a difference in what your friend would
    want to believe as the Qur'an is the final word on this. My sincere
    hope is that his family accepts Islam and thus save themselves from
    Hell. My only advice is that he continues to make effort in showing
    them that Islam is the true religion. If Allah wills they will accept.

    MAy Allah guide us all.

    Was-salaam

    Mufti Ebrahim Moosa

    And regarding you emphasising that Muslim Scholars say "Only Allah knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell", well I've allready given you an explanation of why they say it, and now listen to Shakyh hamza Yusuf give the same explanation:

    Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Creed Of Imam Al Tahawi p6

    Hope that helps

    Salaam.
     
  15. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    9
    ps: here are some extracts from sunniforum.com:

    [this is regarding the ashari view]: Praise be to Allaah.

    It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

    In his tafseer (commentary) on this aayah, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “These words, ‘…And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)’ tell us of the justice of Allaah, may He be exalted, and that He does not punish anyone until after He has established evidence against him by sending a Messenger to him. This is like the aayat (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8] and: ‘And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened (suddenly like a prison at the arrival of its prisoners). And its keepers will say, “Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, - reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” They will say: “Yes, but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!”’ [al-Zumar 39:71]”

    A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”

    According to another report, he said: “Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami’, 881).

    Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly. And Allaah is All-Seer of His slaves.

    The fate of kuffaar who did not hear the message of Islam(1244)

    Basically, in a nutshell, from what i've been taught this is the case:

    a) Person X is unreached by da'wah but is a conceptual monotheist. <--- Amensty
    b) Person X has been reached of the da'wah but through non-Muslim sources which have distorted the message to a high degree. <--- Amnesty
    c) Person X has been reached the undistorted da'wah, but has been told VERY little about Islam, yet he still believes Islam is rationally possible (although he does not chose to accept it, at least now) <--- No Amnesty, since he believes it is rationally possible to be truth.
    d) Person X has been reached by the undistorted da'wah and learns much about Islam and believes it is rationally possible but decides not to accept it. <-- No Amnesty, since he is rejecting the message.

    Why does person (d) reject the message? Many reasons:
    1) Which is the most prevelant reason, and the reason of Abu Jahl, he does not want to follow the fiqh that goes along with the new religion.
    2) Blind following of forefathers.
    3) Arrogance.
    4) Love of the world.
    5) Ingratefulness to God.
    etc. and you can get all of these reasons from the Qur'an.

    Belief is a CHOICE. It is IMPOSSIBLE to find the da'wah as rationally impossible b/c it is DIVINE. Therefore those who find it rationally impossible have obviously recieved the distorted message (or may have mental retardation, or other mental/learning disabilities). And those who find it rationally possible have been reached by the undistorted message. And really, when you finally look at it like that, the Qur'an makes ALOT more sense to you when it tells you why people do not believe. Because the people's minds know that the message is rationally possible, but they are making up any argument they can against it because they do not want to follow the fiqh, or they say "why does a human being get the message" or they are arrogant, or they are deluded, etc.

    sunniforum.com - View Single Post - Do ALL Kafirs/Non-muslims go to Hell for Eternity?

    sunniforum.com - View Single Post - Do ALL Kafirs/Non-muslims go to Hell for Eternity?

    Salaam

    And here is a statement from mufti Ibraheem Desai, who is a matarudi/Hanafi Scholar:

    The word Kafir is derived from the root word ‘Kufr’ which means to deny. Any person who is not a Muslim is a Kaafir as he rejects the religion of Islam – its beliefs, principles and practices.

    We hope the above answers all your queries.

    and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

    Mufti Ebrahim Desai


    Ask-Imam.com [9939] what is kafir? Is it forbidden to call non-Muslims as “kafirs”? Is this statement correct or the usage of the word “kafir” correct: “Saint Paul is a kafir name, and Ahmed is a Muslim name.”
     
  16. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    I deliberately posted the entire Sura, so that verses could not be read out of context. The comments of my own are not interpretations, simply pointing out how I read them and of course you are welcome to comment on the verses too, although you appear not to have done so.

    Could you please give me the verse(s) of the Quran that state this and that this will only be for Muslims (assuming you do not mean anyone that has submitted to G-d).

    I will be happy if you can tell me which verses of the Quran change the meaning of the Sura I quoted. Particularly as Dr Badawi points out that there is no evidence that any single verse of the Quran abrogates any other verse of the Quran.

    Thank you, I am fully aware of your opinion on my desire to read and allow my heart to interpret the Quran, without a million opinions and using different verses to ensure that the meaning is what they want it to be. However, I know you are also aware of my view blind following.

    For me there is no greater expert in anything than Allah and there is nothing in the quoted Sura that should require interpretation by anybody (unless they have learning difficulties of course).

    So would you class Dr Badawi as an expert? If so please go to clip 3/7 and at 7 minutes you will hear Dr Badawi state that the interpretation can be read as "Don't die except in a state of submission to G-d", here he is talking about Jews and Christians.

    In clip 4/7 at 52 seconds, you will also hear Dr Badawi say "theological correctness or incorrectness is left for G-d to judge."

    Perhaps you didn't watch all 7 of the clips?

    Well I quoted the entire Sura that deals with the Day of Judgement, so please feel free to point out to me where your views are clearly pointed out.

    Heard what about Islam exactly? Sorry but I just think if you are going to go around telling people they are going to hell then you should at least be able to point out exactly what they need to know in order to avoid this punishment. They would have to hear the true faith of Islam. Please watch the lecture by Dr Badawi where he clearly states that a person that has heard a distorted view of Islam, has not actually received the message of Islam. People who have heard about Islam but reject it because of the acts of Muslims (terrorism, oppression, etc) have not received the true message of Islam. There is of course also the issue that the Quran is written/spoken in the Arabic language, so a translation could not be the true message as Arabic does not translae well and at times not at all. So if a person does not speak/understand Arabic fluently how can they have received the true message?

    Please give me a single verse of the Quran that even slightly suggests that a person that does not come to conceptual monothiest belief on their own, will go to hell.

    So now we have 2 different scholars giving completely different opinions, again. One scholar has just said that even a person that has never even heard the term Islam but does not come to conceptual monothiest understanding will burn in hell. Now we have "only those who have heard about Islam in it's undistorted form" and reject it will burn in hell. You have to admit they are quite different opinions.

    How interesting, you post the above statement and then give a link to a scholar that states very clearly, and I quote "you can't say anybody is going to hell". So which is it?

    He also states that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said "the Ummah will never agree on an error". So where scholars disagree we can assume this is an error?

    Salaam
     
  17. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    I really do recommend that you watch all of Dr Badawi's lecture. He discusses the difference between a non-believer and a disbeliever. He also discusses the word Kufr and it's multiple meanings (it being arabic) at length. So for any scholar to state that it means just one thing, in all contexts, is simply trying to support his own views.
     
  18. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    9
    "He discusses the difference between a non-believer and a disbeliever".

    He is only expounding on the Ashari view sis; which is that a non-Muslim who has not been given a clear message of islam, is a "non-believer", i.e, he is not muslim but is not a kaafir iether, and that those who are aquainted with the message of Islam and thereafter reject it are "disbelievers", i.e, kaafirs [rejectors of faith.]

    Those are just two words that he has adopted to describe the two different kind of non-Muslims, according to the ashari Creed.

    peace. :)
     
  19. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    So how does that fit in with your prior post:

    The word Kafir is derived from the root word ‘Kufr’ which means to deny. Any person who is not a Muslim is a Kaafir as he rejects the religion of Islam – its beliefs, principles and practices.

    Salaam
     
  20. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    9
    if you dont mind me asking sis, do you have any mental problems? :confused:, or do you suffer from an abnormality such as a understanding problem or learning difficulties?

    because it seems to me that you have an abnormally low iq; sometimes it seems to be lower than that of a five year old.

    This is not meant to be insulting, or meant as a joke sis; I am seriously worried about your mental health; have you got over that previous problem you mentioned?
     

Share This Page