Do you reject original Sin?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Manji2012, Aug 5, 2007.

  1. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    When Jesus said "repent", what was he talking about? John the B. said it too. "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Repent from what? Sin, obviously, but what sin? Everyday ordinary sin? Like, sin against my fellow humans? How can God forgive that? Why would God or Jesus need to forgive that? I can ask forgiveness from my fellows, they're the ones I "sinned" against so why would God and Jesus need to get involved? It has to be something different. Original sin? What active part do I have in that? I can't help that. How can I atone for something I can't help? I need to repent for how I was born? What sense does that make?

    It has to be something else, maybe more metaphysical. Thomas, can you help me with this?

    Chris
     
  2. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Oh wow, lump in throat time. Amazing post Q.

    Oh no I can't sing a note, does that mean I am off to the hot place?

    As an ex Christian may I vote for NO, I don't believe in original sin, never have, never will.
     
  3. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Chris I can't give the metaphysical answer, shall leave that to Thomas but my little 2 cents worth, is that every sin, even a small one against a fellow man is a sin against G-d. G-d teaches us to love our fellow man, so to not do so we are ignoring G-d and must therefore be sorry to G-d for ignoring Him and sinning against Him. Of course we should also be sorry to the person we sinned against and perhaps their forgiveness, if they give it, will be taken into consideration? Just my usual non-sensical ramblings.
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    What we believe is pretty much mute. Kinda like saying the mine will never cave in, or a hurricane will never hurt us. The Bible says we have a blot on us at birth, so we look to God for redemption. Else we think we can do it on our own...

    Wrong answer (sorry Muslimwoman). Paul had a "thorn" in his side, and we all have a blemish we can't remove. It's up to God to take it away, but it's up to us to ask for it to be removed.

    One day, you'll sing low baritone and medium tenor, if you believe...:D
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    "What so ever you do to the least of these...you do unto me." I think you now understand how Jesus gets involved...
     
  6. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Don't be sorry it's just one reason I never made a good Christian. The idea that a 2 hour old baby can die with an unforgiven 'blemish' just doesn't sit well with me. Sin comes with choice, how does a small baby choose to sin?
     
  7. Francis king

    Francis king Well-Known Member

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    exactly... in Irish folklore the theory was, until a child was about seven, they automatically went over the the land of eternal youth, Tir Na Nog, if they passed on, as they were innocent, without sin, and the reason for this was, their morality and consciousness was not considered to be anything near approaching their own until then... the land of eternal youth in itself is a telling metaphor- the young, innocent, pure, joyful, place, a land where everyone was young, and never sickened, or aged, a place where there was no war, misery, evil, hate, etc, etc... the young people played on a beach, or in meadows, and they swam, and lived off the beautiful fruits which festooned the trees, and where forever happy... if u look closely, u will see this idea in Peter Pan...

    how do I think a person attains salvation?

    I don't think salvation is difficult to attain- all sins can be forgiven, if a sinner repents, except those sins against the spirit, according to my understanding of christianity... if this is the case, then all salvation takes is repentance, understanding, and self-acceptance... and all those things come from urself, not religion... or Jesus...

    if u take individual parts from the bible u can convince ppl of anything u like... I do not accept that communion is a valid part of mass... I do not think that drinking wine and eating wafers brings u closer to God... I don't think eating wafers and drinking wine makes you more worthy of forgiveness than those who don't...

    Jesus saves, though... I've seen it with my own eyes... people who cling onto faith when they have little else, believing with all their heart for a miracle, and it comes... I see ppl turning to God who are in a bad way, and they are healed by it... I see ppl who are miserable, sick, lonely, lost, come to mass, and over time, Jesus works a miracle within them, and they change... the Lord works in mysterious ways, after all...

    u can't be saved until u are lost... u can't be freed unless u were first in chains... u can't be healed unless u are sick...

    salvation... salvus... makes me think of salve, balm, ointment... and so yes, christianity can be ur salvation... if u let it...

    but I'm still not believing in original sin, communion, or virgin births...
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Chris —

    Two part answer to the question.

    First the 'easy' bit:
    I think Q has covered it, but the analogy I was going to give is, say you have a son, caught bullying another boy at school. Now if he were my son, the offence is twofold, against the victim obviously, but also against me, because that's not the way I brought him up ...

    God created man, and implanted in man the image of Himself, so that man might know where he came from (the Father) and where he's headed (the Father). This image is, our should be, our 'moral compass' that guides our actions ... we can't see the outcomes of our actions because we're neither omniscient nor omnipotent, but we should be able to work out the right thing to do.

    The 'moral compass' or 'conscience' is an abstract, and volitive man finds it notoriously difficult to order his life according to abstract principles, so teachings start saying things like 'just imagine Jesus was standing at your elbow, what would you do now?' but all too easily and all too often ends up like 'Jesus is watching everything you do, you dirty little boy' which is not quite the same thing at all ... nor is it helpful, nor is it healthy ...

    The problem with 'everyday ordinary sin' is it becomes the backdrop, and eventually the moral norm ... in Europe the EEC wants a Constitution in which no mention of religion is made, in which Christianity is removed from the history of the continent for the sake of 'multiculturalism' — it's a lie of course, they just want to silence the any voice that derives its authority from other than them, it's Orwellian 'newspeak' and it is secular fundamentalism.

    Thomas
     
  9. Seeker_of_truth

    Seeker_of_truth Well-Known Member

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    I am interested to investigate this further, could you please cite bible versus that support this doctrine?
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I think, understandably, this is one of the most persistent errors in understanding Christian doctrine, because we view it so subjectively, and often utterly sentimentally.

    Before looking at 'the fall', it's worth noting what the Jews regarded as axiomatic in the affair.

    1 — God is Good.
    This was a pretty staggering idea, compared to the ideas of their contemporaries, in which the gods are often capricious, if not cruel. Man certainly wasn't created for any kind of 'union', unless a god felt particularly horny, and fancied a shag. There was no such thing as divine harmony, rather there was just a policy of appeasement.

    2 — The world is Good.
    Now this was staggering. Religions of the region were ambivalent about the world, whilst the emerging philosophical systems assumed the world was intrinsically 'bad' — if not actually evil, then a necessary evil to act as a catch and containment of the falling soul.

    3 — God acts in the affairs of men to bring them to perfection
    Now this was just patent nonsense. No-one but the Jews believed in a god who actually had man's best interests in mind. For most, the events of human history was just a sideshow orchestrated by the gods for their own amusement, or an arena in which to act out their squabbles and petty jealousies.

    I make this point because this determines the backdrop against which any notion of sin has to be understood.

    God invited Adam to join Him. He brought him the animals to be named, and made him master of the estate. But Adam got the taste for power, and he became addicted to it, to the point where he hungered after God's power ... he wanted to be like a god ... he was hooked.

    He wanted Quahom's choir to sing to him.

    He wanted to taste the love with which the Kosmos sang of God's glory. Not just be part of it, he wanted to possess it. He wanted to be adored.

    +++

    And we are the children of an addict, and we are born with that addiction.

    We want a love we cannot have.

    Whether the fault is mine or not really is immaterial. I've got the problem, I am addicted. Part of the addiction is to seek to blame everyone else for the condition I'm in, rather than actually doing anything about the condition.

    Part of the adddiction is denial.

    And the problem is we seek to deny our addiction by appeasing it ... by feeding it ... service to self ... and we make it worse ...

    We are addicts, born into the addiction of willfullness, determined to shape the world according to ourselves, to determine our own good, our own freedoms, our own destinies ... our own cure ...

    +++

    We're addicted to self-love.

    So the simple answer is to go to the Doctor of Life and say 'I'm not very well", but the reality is we have voices in the wilderness crying out that we are sick, and we say "No I'm not" or "I know, but I can sort it out myself, thanks."

    Addicts don't recover because they realise intellectually that they are sick ... the recover when they realise in their very being that they are sick of being who they are ...

    You can't help someone until they want to be cured.

    And we know when we can, because they say 'help me'.

    And that's what He means by repentance.

    And when they do, He is there waiting ... and He says "you have to let go" and we say "I don't want to" and He says "Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls" (Matthew 11:29).

    But that sounds too much like rehab, and all too often we say, "No, I'm OK, really ... I can manage it myself."

    Thomas
     
  11. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    its important to note that all christians do not believe in a "blemished baby" as you state. but it is also not enough to seperate the denominations who all believe in the father, son, and holy ghost, as it does not take away but just adds (maybe unnecessarily). baptism has to do with making a conscious decision to accept jesus christ as lord and saviour and dedicate one's life to god. jesus christ himself did not get baptized until he was in his 30's. a baby is not saved by having a service forced on them with out any knowledge of what is going on. if you look back at the time of jesus' crucifixion, the thief only had to believe in jesus christ and jesus said to him "today you will be with me in paradise." he did not have a baby baptism to get rid of the "original sin" yet he is in heaven with god thru his faith and christ's grace. a good christian is about loving and honoring and worshiping and having faith in jesus christ and the father that sent him, and doing everything to glorify him.
    what i do believe in is that all fall short of the glory of god. adam and eve sinned and god had to kill an animal to cover their nakedness. man was to labor for food, childbirth became painful, and woman was going to be under man, our days become less and we eventually die. but thru christ we would eventually find forgiveness and everlasting life when we decide to let him into our lives and transform us and be born again.
     
  12. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    That is why a child is un-accountable until the age of ascention (11-14 years of age). Maybe you never read that part of the Bible...:eek:

    In Judeac faith, the age is 13.

    All babies that die, go straight to heaven. Non stop flight...

    v/r

    Q
     
  13. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    The idea of Original Sin is surely that we are born with a blot (I believe that is how you worded it). So are you saying that people are not accountable for that blot until later life? Perhaps you could give me the Bible verses so I can read up on it.

    With free juice and nibbles I hope. ;)

    Please explain to me. During our lives we sin and must, of course, answer for each sin. So do you believe we also have to answer for original sin as well as our own sins? I accept that people believe I cannot go to heaven because I was never baptised and therefore cannot be saved but for the sake of discussion, would I have to answer for both?

    Thank you for your comments Blazn. So would you say that a person that is baptised as a baby should choose to be baptised again as an adult? Thus declaring their service to G-d, as an adult choice.

    Salaam
     
  14. Pico

    Pico Well-Known Member

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    Original sin is what brought death and suffering into the world. Little kids go to heaven when they die because they haven't willingly disobeyed God. There's a age before they become morally accountable and if they die before then they have no sin against them.


    As for being baptized, that will not get your sins forgiven and will not get you into heaven. The only thing that will is to trust Jesus as your savior, and enter into a relationship with him. As the bible says in the book of James, he is the only person who can present you as pure and spotless before God. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit, so when you accept his gift of forgiveness you receive the Holy Spirit. A baptism by water won't do that for you.
     
  15. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    How do you know the end if you don't know the beginning? I submit that babies are not born until after babies are born. Meaning... there is the birth of the flesh and then there is the assignment of the soul.

    And since the meat of baptism is in confession or repentance? ... enough said.
     
  16. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    of course, yes... they should get baptized as an adult if they wish. as a baby their parents may have done it out of religious tradition, out of social influence, to pick godparents, to dedicate their baby to god. but the individual should be the one that makes the conscious decision as a mature person to dedicate their lives personally to god when they know what it all means and why.
     
  17. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    May I ask then for your view of childrens faith. Should a child, as it grows, be free to choose a faith to follow? I can understand the concern of parents that believe their faith is the only path to G-d but should we be free to choose?
     
  18. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I accept all but the woman under man thing. God said woman will desire after man, and he will rule over her. Said nothing about subjugation.

    Woman is life, and man is the servant of life. Kinda like the president of the United States...the one that serves in that position is the number on servant of the people...

    v/r

    Q
     
  19. JosephM

    JosephM Well-Known Member

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    MW,
    Personally, I would say it is not a case of should OR shouldn't. We are free to choose when we come of age unless we willingly give up that right to our parents, peers or group.

    Peace,
    JM
     
  20. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Who said you can't go to heaven? Not me. What is said is that you will not get to the Father but through the Son. None of us can.

    You get a 50/50 chance to go to heaven just like everyone else. Either your name is in the book of life or it is not.

    But Christ offered us a 'ticket' to heaven and a way to the Father.

    He/She who professes Christ in heart and soul have a room with their name on the door. And they will see the Father through the Son.

    Me...I just want to be the gate keeper. Peter will tell me when to open the gate, and when to close it...:D

    v/r

    Q
     

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