God is with form or without form?

Discussion in 'Modern Religions' started by dattaswami1, Aug 25, 2007.

  1. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada Well-Known Member

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    God cannot be compared with anything human or with matter of any sort. (Isa. 46:5) Only God is absolute. We are all relative. But what is not a man's made concept? All concepts in the Scriptures and ouf of it, come from out of our own intellect.
    Ben
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    From is G!d's manifestation on earth, the only begotten continually begotten.

    Omnipresence, everything we see is G!d incarnate.
     
  3. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    God cannot be compared with anything human or with matter of any sort. (Isa. 46:5)

    That is, if you believe what your eyes read on those bonded stack of printed papyrus pages state.


    Only God is absolute.

    That is, if all relative matter/energy is included too.
    It's the assumed fiction novelas that you may be referring to.


    We are all relative.

    That is, we are relative to a universal bench mark.

    But what is not a man's made concept?

    The mystery of our existence and how it functions even when we are invested in our own subjective novela of self-existence.

    All concepts in the Scriptures and ou[t] of it,
    come from out of our own intellect.

    That is, if you haven't met the uncle of your great-grandfather's grandfather ---then, that uncle never existed?
    Knowledge comes from knowledge ---souls come from superior elder souls that went before us, and if those souls lived lives of jungle-law, we will be acculturated to jungle-laws.

    Karma/works elevate us toward requisite ettiquette appropo to higher stratums of life ---there is only one species of biological life that can understand these "antropic" parameters of life as a bi-ped earth-bound top-of-the-pyramid Homosepian.
     
  4. dhillon

    dhillon Well-Known Member

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    dear members
    GOD is everywhere immanent plus transendental..how smart the mind is,, the mind cannot understand god.. mind is not independent,, if there is no air it dies..so mind is dependent to air..our body also cannot understand god because it depends on food and water..without this 2 the body perishes..so mind and body cannot be used for full REALIZATION of God.. so the only entity in us that is independent and not dependent to air, food and water is the SOUL and then the spirit.. first of all ask ourself what are our DESTINIES? some says the world is a suffering place and man is a original sinner so they make their destinies to heaven avoiding hell.. in SIKHISM the destiny is to earn salvation meaning,, to break away from the cycles of birth and death.. freedom from repeated blows of death on the face.. GURUS there are many types..some came from MAYA regions..Some came from higher spiritual planes above the MAYA regions..this true gurus we call them satgurus.. beware of maya gurus,, they only will take you to repeated births and multiple blows of death on our faces.. life after life we will be wondering in maya regions and becaming slaves to death..SATGURU will take your higher to earn THE NAMES OF GOD.. and this is the true ladder that will detach you away from maya and takes you straight to GOD HEAD...GOD and SATGURUS are the same.. we are not actually worshipping the GURU, but we are looking at his inner spiritual attainments..and we are worshipping that spirit... god created all shapes and forms and yet is seated above them..the whole creation is created by the NAMES OF GOD,,,and thru this principle the lord is also running his UNIVERSAL WILL... in order to understand this WILL we have no any other choices but to surrender to it...
     
  5. Dean_Fox

    Dean_Fox Member

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    Perhaps a deeper question would be is god an illusion?

    Ant hills are remarkably complex. They're built by thousands of tiny amoral insects. They grow, breath, eat and reproduce. Ant hills defend themselves when attacked. Ant hills attack other ant hills. In many ways the ants are to the ant hill what cells are to our bodies. Are ant hills alive? Does an ant hill have collective conscience?

    Does god have human imperfections like a predisposition towards violence, anger, egotism, insecurity, vanity and so on?

    If god does then surely god isn't anything more than an imperfect entity with too much power for it, and our, own good.

    If god doesn't then what motivates god to do anything that people claim god's done or want anything people claim god wants?

    Why would an entity without an ego demand praise? Praising god isn't necessary for a person to be good or to do good, in fact some people praise god and then do very bad things; it also makes a terrible tie braker if on balance a person did equally good and bad things. If it is necessary to praise god for stuff then why praise only god? Surely the effort of everyone else who got the food on the table deserves personal praise, after all they did it of their own free will regardless of their beliefs. Okay I know they get paid (some better than others) but still we all know it's nice to be appreciated once in a while.

    Surely the notion that god requires praise on a very regular basis come from people who want to encourage patronage to their group (church) for their own motives? Okay I know the

    I'm sure there are many who hold leading positions in churchs who truely believe what they're doing is rightous and they truely mean well but churches are very much a human creation built on a very much human premise that god demands worship; see the first four of the 10 commandments, clearly imbueding god with human frailties and desires.
     
  6. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    DeanFox,
    I believe that most, if not all we think is based on illusion, considering we know so little of what there is to know.
    I think religion can be good for a sense of community, keeping people "in line" when laws won't. Religion can also be bad, when it's used as extortion (fear & shame people into paying money to them), and causing or contributing to mental illness.
    In the 10 commandments, it states to not have any other gods before God & to not have engraven images... but then there are statues and pictures of Jesus to buy. I agree with someone who mentioned that God (esp. Jesus) is a personification of spirituality. It's easier to resonate with a person, than an abstract idea. Yet, we are to "put off childish thinking" and then we can love with less limits.


    I don't know.
    But what I think at the moment is...
    God is all in all.... infinite possibilities.

    What Aristotle taught makes sense, at least partly ;) ...
    Pure actuality (form without matter) can exist, though pure potentiality (matter without form) cannot. So, according to Aristotle, the "Prime Mover" (aka God) is pure actuality. The only way God can remain perfect and unchanging, yet still have influence (ie create this world) is through attraction... God is LOVE.

    I believe that each life/energy believes in and actively pursues God, or GOoD... what we think is good.
     
  7. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    To be begotten, it means the result is distinct.

    Again, to be an incarnation, it means something has been moved into material life.

    Neither is true, we never leave God, we are still part of God, whether we recognize it or not. Science says there is nothing like matter, that material things are merely perceived to be so - it is like a fan, when it is moving we perceive a dish, and yet it is just three blades spinning quickly.

    In this way, NOTHING has form, it is only perceived as form, but what we perceive is a particular body of God. Our perceptions are restricted to something which we can make sense of and function within, upon death we lose all relativity and merge back with the absolute. We can think of each sentient being as a particular inquiry of God into himself, when we have completed our inquiry we return to further the understanding of God. This will seem blasphemous to many, for God is perfect... no, existence is trying to figure itself out as much as we are - in fact we are existence trying to figure itself out.
     
  8. Dean_Fox

    Dean_Fox Member

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    Did I mention I'm an atheist? That aside my take is that if there is a god then all theist religions are wrong because they all imbued their impression of god with traits no god should have.

    I once considered setting up my own religion. Although I don't believe there is a god because there is no proof I can speculate to form the basis of a religion. Sadly my atheist conscience wouldn't let me abuse people like that.

    All that said if I were to speculate the god would be a force for absolute order and the devil a force for absolute chaos. Before existance they were absolute states. Since nothing can be absolutely order or absolutely chaotic nothing existed; this may never have been the case as such is infinity.

    Existance started when the two states met and became forces acting on the other to convert them to their absolute state. Everything that was, is and will be is a manifestation of the actions of the force of chaos and order on each other. Put simply take the atom, the force of order keeps it together while the force of chaos keeps it moving.

    The two forces are manifest at all levels from the atom through the interactions of energies through to how things work in nature and even how we behave.

    When we die our essence is recycled, we become chaos and order in another form.

    Basic morality is if it causes harm it is chaotic and wrong. If it helps bring order and improvement it's good.

    I could write a book on this showing how mathematics, the only discplin that can truely prove anything backs this up. My concepts fit scientifically. The basic unit of the universe is a single unit of chaos or order and neither can
    truely exist.

    I've just come from a discussion on churches, one which you touch on. The conclusion was that churches are redundant. One doesn't need them to be spiritual or be a good person or to do good things.

    One can study all manner of philosophies and share ideas like never before. While some take comfort in religion one doesn't need churches; yes I believe the first 4 commandments were written by a human to create the need for churches.

    All theist religions follow the same basic tenets which are only worship this god. Be good (don't hurt people but more importantly do as you're told) and honor the family or clan (tithe to your church)

    Other than be good, with the caveat that one must do what one is told above all else, the moral guidance of religions is rubbish. You need only look at the number of religious fundamentalists who support the sanctity of life and the death penalty to realise how poor religion is as a moral compass. Thou shalt not kill the anti abortionists scream (except for those on death row). An if the church says their needs to be a lynching that's good too.
     
  9. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Uhhhmmmmm . . . which god are you asking about? :D
     
  10. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Based on who's authority?

    If there is a god then all theist religions . . . such informative data was recieved from above.

    IOW, Knowledge of the Deity is "Revealed by the deity" and that info is passed down by "traditional lines of succession" to the present day.

    Such revelations of the deity cannot be claimed by an individual as his own sole revelation ---The deity's revelations must be confirmed by the 3-Checks: "GURU, SADHU & SASTRA [teacher, teacher(s) & the text-books]"

    Please don't conflate the bereft circumstances of how providence situates a soul in a setting/birth-place/time/locale/epoch ---that is without a connection to bonefide "GURU, SADHU & SASTRA" ---in which case, inlieu of bonefide advantages of such data, more mundane hard-scrabble lessons of life are first situated to be learnt inlieu of the more sublime and thus later, the divine & transcendent.

    In-contrast (or the flip-side of the same coin) to that, if there is a god-less atheist religions . . . . . such informative data was recieved from above. IOW, Knowledge of the atheism too is "Revealed by the atheist Gurs" and that info is passed down by "traditional lines of succession" to the present day.
     
  11. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Ah bhaktajan, my friend. You are quite correct. Dean Fox, we all get our ideas from somewhere or someone else. You state you are an atheist, that mathematics is the "only discpline that can truely prove anything", and a chaos-vs.-order cosmology.

    Like my friend asked, who did you get this atheistic notion from? A friend, Dawkins? Hutchens? Darwin? If one generalizes to ridicule the believer, turn-about is fair play.

    Read some more math, especially Goedel... see nothing beyond arithmetic is provable (see his 1931 paper or just read wiki on "Godel's incompletness theorums"). It is like an onion, one cannot prove consistency and completeness unless one "adds another layer" with a new system that includes a Godel statement. But this new system cannot be proven to be consistent and complete (ad infinitum).

    There are many order-disorder cosmologies, both non-theistic and theistic. Again, the problem is their consistency. The problem is having an ordered universe stifles G!d (I believe in a on-going inter-relationness between G!d and person and world), and without the creativity the G!d/dess injects, the world is quite boring. Oh, and if order reigned on the quantum level, all evolution, emergence, and physical reality ceases (we would live in a Einsteinian block universe and all things are pre-determined, oh and quantum could not work so we would self-destruct).

    Morality and ethics are not dependent on G!d, but on whether we take care of what we are entrusted with (self, family, land, money, ideas....). No you do not need G!d to be good. Nor do you need dogmas and unquestioning faith.

    But you do need G!d to see beyond the physical and the merely mental.
     
  12. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    God - for most - is absolutely a conception, an imagination.

    True religion causes a realization of what is called God, then no questions arise, it is more true than anything you encountered previously. It is a shame this is not very prevalent in the world today, most are willing to just accept what is crammed into their heads about the way things work - it is all a blind faith, including accepting scientific statements.

    Chaos and cosmos are also a perception, your mind seeks to make sense of chaos and creates a cosmos - science has shown expectations of the observer affect the behavior of particles. What if we're actually still in the big bang and everything going on is merely a result of the explosion? Can you prove it is not so?
     
  13. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    "Chaos and cosmos are also a perception, your mind seeks to make sense of chaos and creates a cosmos - science has shown expectations of the observer affect the behavior of particles."

    If you are using "perception" as "experience" ... no. The experience is not mediated by what you call "mind". Chaos is experienced, look at the formula for a Mandelbrot Set (or at the results if you need to). Kosmos is experienced, being the sum total of experiences. The uncertainty principle even if taken to the extreme of the delayed choice experiment has rather nothing to do with experience except in very specialized cases (quantum is about the very small and unseeable). What it does is give you a upper bound on your knowledge (I cannot be "absolutely sure").

    "What if we're actually still in the big bang and everything going on is merely a result of the explosion?"

    Since in the big bang no aggreated collections of matter or energy can exist, yes. There are actual neutron and protons, thefore the temperature has cooled off a bit.

    "Can you prove it is not so?"

    Probably not to your satisfaction. However, if you care to believe that your experiences are the fictions and fabrications of "bare quarks" be my guest, but it is a rather solipsist argument (could be true, who cares, indifferent to comment).
     
  14. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    Thanks for giving me more to think about, DeanFox.
    Says who? You? Well, I agree with you... so both of us say so. :p
    Except I don't consider myself Atheist.
    According to dictionaries, Atheists - are those who believe that God doesn't exist.
    Yet, who's definition of God are they considering?
    Most would agree on defining one aspect of God as the creator of the universe - or as Aristotle called it, "Prime Mover."
    Isn't it silly to deny the existence of the universe - & isn't that what one is doing by denying a creator - however, or whoever it is?

    Yeah, I think a service volunteer organization would be better way of gathering people to do GOoD.

    This paradox of both order and chaos, is something I have a hard time wrapping my mind around - but I think it's nevertheless true.
    Maybe it's just because I'm trying to "judge" or distinguish which is right & which is wrong - when both are equally needed.

    That will be an adventure!

    For practical purposes, we must conclude before there is any real conclusion. Yet, in an honest search for truth about right and wrong... they are too mixed up. IE: Is it good if I let my child go cold as a result of forgetting her jacket? She may get sick... but then again, maybe she'll LEARN & be more careful about remembering things and considering consequences of her actions.

    Why do you think mathematics is the only way to prove things?
    It's not the only way to think - it's too limited to be the sole source of truth.

    What you mentioned about the single unit of chaos or order reminds me of what Leibniz wrote... "... the Principle of Sufficient Reason, in virtue of which we believe that no fact can be real and no statement true unless it has a sufficient reason why it should be thus and not otherwise. Most frequently, however, these reasons cannot be known to us.... Now this interconnection, relationship, or this adaptation of all things to each particular one, and of each one to all the rest, brings it about that every simple substance has relations which express all the others and that it is consequently a perpetual living mirror of the universe."

    Although I agree that we don't need churches, I think we need people - and church tends to be a convenient way of gathering people together.
    I'd disagree about the 4 commandments (except maybe the 4th)... ironically, I think they are about not having church. Of course, many will disagree with me.
    1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    God is love... If you worship Jesus, Mohammad/Mecca or Buddha, you are having other gods before God.
    2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
    According to this commandment, it is wrong to have statues or pictures of Jesus, Buddha to enhance worship
    3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
    Any religion that does not strive to love others (esp. poor) and instead use Jesus' (or others who represent God) name to make money are violating this commandment.
    4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    This commandment was exaggerated... to the point of how many steps one could take on the sabbath. Then Jesus taught, "The sabbath is made for man, not man for the sabbath" - In other words, religious rituals and teachings are for the spiritual learning & benefit of people... not to become gods/ends in themselves.

    If I understand you right... it is more moral to do good from your heart, than to be told to do it.
    I think that religion acts like parents... some need parents still, even as adults.
    Unfortunately, not many will do good out of their own good character... so we need laws... and religion can fill in where laws fail. Yet, they can also go to the other extreme and create shameful, fearful robots.
     
  15. shanel

    shanel Member

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    God is spirit and which we can't see but realize it or feel it around us.
     
  16. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    It is strange you say this, yet try to explain through your knowledge how what is perceived is actually a cosmos. Mind has made sense of it, thus it seems like a cosmos to you, but bring mind out and look at the randomness of everything. There are things which can be explained in a calculation, and yet what can genuinely be calculated? Once an asteroid has been observed, we can see what it is going. Can we say why it is going there? What has caused this projectory, why this asteroid even has occurred? It is all utterly random, but if we look backwards we can make sense of it - it has become involved in this gravitation, it has encountered this force, this is its weight, thus this is its destination. If we look it seems to make sense now, we forget that simply in this happening at all there is no logic - the presence of gravitation, the forces creating momentum, the mass accumulated along the way, none of it needed to be at all.

    We perceive cosmos where there is none because it feels better to find an answer, now we can rest in our knowledge. It is a trick of the mind, it never goes beyond what it cannot explain - it just is that way, or God made it that way - then we leave it alone. We never question our conclusions, we never ask why suddenly this makes sense to us. We feel we are no more a victim of randomness and that creates a comfort. Religiousness is to embrace that discomfort, to understand deeply that it is ok as it is, that there is no need to create a sense of security - and it is to know why there is no need.
     
  17. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Spirit is a translation from "pneuma", it simply means "breath" more correctly.

    Certainly, you can realize - encounter the reality of - it, you can even feel it in a way... do you know you are its form though?

    Jesus has become intoxicated by the divine, in it he has died and in the space he has vacated, the Spirit has occupied. This is what he means when he says to accept the Spirit, it is not that you can do it, you must surrender yourself so it can enter.

    Only in this is the Spirit of God realized, otherwise it remains a concept - an imagining.
     
  18. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    How can one be reborn if one does not die first? There is already a being there, and it is utterly false, it is merely your conception. You have to permit the true being in, but it means you have to vacate the premises first - you have to put down your own will and accept the divine will.

    The nature of sin is simply to go on missing the opportunity - its very meaning is simply "to miss". Jesus has not actually said "repent" - how can he? English has not been created yet! His word actually means "return" - it is sort of like the game Marco Polo: one person remains blind, and the other goes on calling "return", you do not know the way, but in the call you can tell where it is coming from, now you will not go on missing, you simply have to be aware of the sound.

    You are being called to the Kingdom of God, and the caller is the Holy Spirit - God.
     
  19. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    The word translated as repent also means to answer... this is something unique to Christianity, it suggests it is God who is calling "Marco" and waiting for you to reply "Polo", but you do not. Now Jesus has come and said "Answer!" and still some do not reply "Polo".

    It is a strange concept, that God cannot find you, that to be filled with the Holy Spirit, you merely have to show God the way. Most religions go utterly the other way, they show how to return, but they do not suggest God can come to you. In this way, Christianity is most beautiful, it has this added dimension that you needn't do anything but call him. If you are continuously finding reasons to keep him out though, how can he ever enter?

    You still have to prepare the soil for the seed to be harvested, and for me it is dangerous to say nothing more need be done but believe. The seed is not planted merely by saying, and certainly not by researching how. The ground must be opened, fertilizer must be added, much has to be done. The seed wants to flower, but the conditions have to be ripe.
     
  20. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Repent as used at Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Repent: Strong's Greek #3340

    metanoeō

    1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
    2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
    "Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

    From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539) or "with mindfulness" (understanding)
    meta
    1) with, after, behind


    noeō
    1) to perceive with the mind, to understand, to have understanding
    2) to think upon, heed, ponder, consider



     

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