God is with form or without form?

Ben Masada

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Thanks for lending the reference so as to investigate it personally.
Let me 'personally' ask you all your 'personal' questions about the technical explainations about the topic "Is God with form or without form?" in the Bible:

inre: "Is God with form or without form?":

What absolute maxim is stated; & in what context; & for what purpose; & to whom, in Deut. 4:15-18?

What absolute maxim is stated; & in what context; & for what purpose; & to whom, in John 4:24?
::::::::::::::::::::::

So my subjective empherical (corporal/temporal) Intelligence decerns that the following is applicable:

Ben Masada is absolutely with form. According to Jesus himself Ben Masada is Spirit, and that the only way to relate to Ben Masada is in a spiritual manner. Form is found in matter; and Ben Masada is immaterial. Incorporeal, so to speak. The result of thinking of Ben Masada as having form is anthropomorphism, which borders on idolatry of Ben Masada.

<Semantics = poetry>

<Absolute(s) = Laws>

<Absolute = Eternal/objective; Temporal = Relative/subjective>

<anthropomorphism = Man is the Height of Creation and none other surpasses Man. anthropomorphism is a man-made-concept ---like a patented invention borne of neccesity>
...........................
Ben your sentiments are absolute; but we are relative.

A "Ruler's subjective Presence" is temporal, but the Office & Duties of A Ruling Government are absolute ---the Ruler must intergrate the two to provide satisfaction to "All the people All the time" ---or his arse gets Momar Kaddafized by 1st world forces. No?


God cannot be compared with anything human or with matter of any sort. (Isa. 46:5) Only God is absolute. We are all relative. But what is not a man's made concept? All concepts in the Scriptures and ouf of it, come from out of our own intellect.
Ben
 

Bhaktajan II

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God cannot be compared with anything human or with matter of any sort. (Isa. 46:5) Only God is absolute. We are all relative. But what is not a man's made concept? All concepts in the Scriptures and ouf of it, come from out of our own intellect.

God cannot be compared with anything human or with matter of any sort. (Isa. 46:5)

That is, if you believe what your eyes read on those bonded stack of printed papyrus pages state.


Only God is absolute.

That is, if all relative matter/energy is included too.
It's the assumed fiction novelas that you may be referring to.


We are all relative.

That is, we are relative to a universal bench mark.

But what is not a man's made concept?

The mystery of our existence and how it functions even when we are invested in our own subjective novela of self-existence.

All concepts in the Scriptures and ou[t] of it,
come from out of our own intellect.

That is, if you haven't met the uncle of your great-grandfather's grandfather ---then, that uncle never existed?
Knowledge comes from knowledge ---souls come from superior elder souls that went before us, and if those souls lived lives of jungle-law, we will be acculturated to jungle-laws.

Karma/works elevate us toward requisite ettiquette appropo to higher stratums of life ---there is only one species of biological life that can understand these "antropic" parameters of life as a bi-ped earth-bound top-of-the-pyramid Homosepian.
 

dhillon

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dear members
GOD is everywhere immanent plus transendental..how smart the mind is,, the mind cannot understand god.. mind is not independent,, if there is no air it dies..so mind is dependent to air..our body also cannot understand god because it depends on food and water..without this 2 the body perishes..so mind and body cannot be used for full REALIZATION of God.. so the only entity in us that is independent and not dependent to air, food and water is the SOUL and then the spirit.. first of all ask ourself what are our DESTINIES? some says the world is a suffering place and man is a original sinner so they make their destinies to heaven avoiding hell.. in SIKHISM the destiny is to earn salvation meaning,, to break away from the cycles of birth and death.. freedom from repeated blows of death on the face.. GURUS there are many types..some came from MAYA regions..Some came from higher spiritual planes above the MAYA regions..this true gurus we call them satgurus.. beware of maya gurus,, they only will take you to repeated births and multiple blows of death on our faces.. life after life we will be wondering in maya regions and becaming slaves to death..SATGURU will take your higher to earn THE NAMES OF GOD.. and this is the true ladder that will detach you away from maya and takes you straight to GOD HEAD...GOD and SATGURUS are the same.. we are not actually worshipping the GURU, but we are looking at his inner spiritual attainments..and we are worshipping that spirit... god created all shapes and forms and yet is seated above them..the whole creation is created by the NAMES OF GOD,,,and thru this principle the lord is also running his UNIVERSAL WILL... in order to understand this WILL we have no any other choices but to surrender to it...
 

Dean_Fox

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Perhaps a deeper question would be is god an illusion?

Ant hills are remarkably complex. They're built by thousands of tiny amoral insects. They grow, breath, eat and reproduce. Ant hills defend themselves when attacked. Ant hills attack other ant hills. In many ways the ants are to the ant hill what cells are to our bodies. Are ant hills alive? Does an ant hill have collective conscience?

Does god have human imperfections like a predisposition towards violence, anger, egotism, insecurity, vanity and so on?

If god does then surely god isn't anything more than an imperfect entity with too much power for it, and our, own good.

If god doesn't then what motivates god to do anything that people claim god's done or want anything people claim god wants?

Why would an entity without an ego demand praise? Praising god isn't necessary for a person to be good or to do good, in fact some people praise god and then do very bad things; it also makes a terrible tie braker if on balance a person did equally good and bad things. If it is necessary to praise god for stuff then why praise only god? Surely the effort of everyone else who got the food on the table deserves personal praise, after all they did it of their own free will regardless of their beliefs. Okay I know they get paid (some better than others) but still we all know it's nice to be appreciated once in a while.

Surely the notion that god requires praise on a very regular basis come from people who want to encourage patronage to their group (church) for their own motives? Okay I know the

I'm sure there are many who hold leading positions in churchs who truely believe what they're doing is rightous and they truely mean well but churches are very much a human creation built on a very much human premise that god demands worship; see the first four of the 10 commandments, clearly imbueding god with human frailties and desires.
 

Persona

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DeanFox,
I believe that most, if not all we think is based on illusion, considering we know so little of what there is to know.
I think religion can be good for a sense of community, keeping people "in line" when laws won't. Religion can also be bad, when it's used as extortion (fear & shame people into paying money to them), and causing or contributing to mental illness.
In the 10 commandments, it states to not have any other gods before God & to not have engraven images... but then there are statues and pictures of Jesus to buy. I agree with someone who mentioned that God (esp. Jesus) is a personification of spirituality. It's easier to resonate with a person, than an abstract idea. Yet, we are to "put off childish thinking" and then we can love with less limits.


I don't know.
But what I think at the moment is...
God is all in all.... infinite possibilities.

What Aristotle taught makes sense, at least partly ;) ...
Pure actuality (form without matter) can exist, though pure potentiality (matter without form) cannot. So, according to Aristotle, the "Prime Mover" (aka God) is pure actuality. The only way God can remain perfect and unchanging, yet still have influence (ie create this world) is through attraction... God is LOVE.

I believe that each life/energy believes in and actively pursues God, or GOoD... what we think is good.
 

Lunitik

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From is G!d's manifestation on earth, the only begotten continually begotten.

Omnipresence, everything we see is G!d incarnate.

To be begotten, it means the result is distinct.

Again, to be an incarnation, it means something has been moved into material life.

Neither is true, we never leave God, we are still part of God, whether we recognize it or not. Science says there is nothing like matter, that material things are merely perceived to be so - it is like a fan, when it is moving we perceive a dish, and yet it is just three blades spinning quickly.

In this way, NOTHING has form, it is only perceived as form, but what we perceive is a particular body of God. Our perceptions are restricted to something which we can make sense of and function within, upon death we lose all relativity and merge back with the absolute. We can think of each sentient being as a particular inquiry of God into himself, when we have completed our inquiry we return to further the understanding of God. This will seem blasphemous to many, for God is perfect... no, existence is trying to figure itself out as much as we are - in fact we are existence trying to figure itself out.
 

Dean_Fox

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DeanFox,
I believe that most, if not all we think is based on illusion, considering we know so little of what there is to know.
I think religion can be good for a sense of community, keeping people "in line" when laws won't. Religion can also be bad, when it's used as extortion (fear & shame people into paying money to them), and causing or contributing to mental illness.
In the 10 commandments, it states to not have any other gods before God & to not have engraven images... but then there are statues and pictures of Jesus to buy. I agree with someone who mentioned that God (esp. Jesus) is a personification of spirituality. It's easier to resonate with a person, than an abstract idea. Yet, we are to "put off childish thinking" and then we can love with less limits.


I don't know.
But what I think at the moment is...
God is all in all.... infinite possibilities.

What Aristotle taught makes sense, at least partly ;) ...
Pure actuality (form without matter) can exist, though pure potentiality (matter without form) cannot. So, according to Aristotle, the "Prime Mover" (aka God) is pure actuality. The only way God can remain perfect and unchanging, yet still have influence (ie create this world) is through attraction... God is LOVE.

I believe that each life/energy believes in and actively pursues God, or GOoD... what we think is good.
Did I mention I'm an atheist? That aside my take is that if there is a god then all theist religions are wrong because they all imbued their impression of god with traits no god should have.

I once considered setting up my own religion. Although I don't believe there is a god because there is no proof I can speculate to form the basis of a religion. Sadly my atheist conscience wouldn't let me abuse people like that.

All that said if I were to speculate the god would be a force for absolute order and the devil a force for absolute chaos. Before existance they were absolute states. Since nothing can be absolutely order or absolutely chaotic nothing existed; this may never have been the case as such is infinity.

Existance started when the two states met and became forces acting on the other to convert them to their absolute state. Everything that was, is and will be is a manifestation of the actions of the force of chaos and order on each other. Put simply take the atom, the force of order keeps it together while the force of chaos keeps it moving.

The two forces are manifest at all levels from the atom through the interactions of energies through to how things work in nature and even how we behave.

When we die our essence is recycled, we become chaos and order in another form.

Basic morality is if it causes harm it is chaotic and wrong. If it helps bring order and improvement it's good.

I could write a book on this showing how mathematics, the only discplin that can truely prove anything backs this up. My concepts fit scientifically. The basic unit of the universe is a single unit of chaos or order and neither can
truely exist.

I've just come from a discussion on churches, one which you touch on. The conclusion was that churches are redundant. One doesn't need them to be spiritual or be a good person or to do good things.

One can study all manner of philosophies and share ideas like never before. While some take comfort in religion one doesn't need churches; yes I believe the first 4 commandments were written by a human to create the need for churches.

All theist religions follow the same basic tenets which are only worship this god. Be good (don't hurt people but more importantly do as you're told) and honor the family or clan (tithe to your church)

Other than be good, with the caveat that one must do what one is told above all else, the moral guidance of religions is rubbish. You need only look at the number of religious fundamentalists who support the sanctity of life and the death penalty to realise how poor religion is as a moral compass. Thou shalt not kill the anti abortionists scream (except for those on death row). An if the church says their needs to be a lynching that's good too.
 

Etu Malku

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God is with form or without form?


Do you think that we have to travel from clarity to confusion or from confusion to clarity? Anything becomes complicated when there is confusion. Anything becomes easy when there is clarity. Clarity is the real knowledge and confusion is the real ignorance. We must travel from ignorance to knowledge and not vice-versa. When you say that God is formless, there is no complication. God is like all pervading space or cosmic energy. A 10th class student who has studied physics can very easily understand this. But when a particular human being is declared as God the real complication arises, because He is looking like any human being. How this particular human being is God and every human being is not God? You have to analyze the internal form of the human incarnation and differentiate Him from an ordinary human being. Lot of logical analysis is required here only. Moreover egoism and jealousy attack immediately any one and due to this no body accepts a particular human being as God. Actually God is unimaginable and you cannot say that He has form or formless. He is not the space, which is formless. But you imagine Him like space. You have caught the space only in your imagination and not the real God. Somebody says that a peculiar animal in the forest called as Gavaya looks like cow, you have imagined only the cow and not the Gavaya animal. Unless you perceive God directly how can you imagine Him? Your imagination itself is nervous energy. Thus you perceive the unimaginable God through space and nervous energy. Both the space and nervous energy are parts of the creation. If you analyze the human body it is also energy occupying certain space.

Therefore, you perceive God through the medium of space and energy. A medium, which is a part of the creation, is essential to imagine the unimaginable God. Unimaginable is different from formless. Space is formless but not unimaginable. First you distinguish between these two. The Guru of your Sikh Religion is actually the human incarnation and worshipping Him is the real worship of God. The reason for your Guru not encouraging the human incarnation is that the fraud Gurus are claiming themselves as God. It is really difficult to recognize the real human incarnation in which, God dwells. Certainly there is a large probability of fraud persons who claim themselves as God and mislead you. But you should not run away from analyzing the genuine incarnation fearing for the fraud persons. Any system has loopholes. The system cannot be rejected due to the loopholes. One cannot avoid the train journey since there is a risk of accident. One cannot abolish the examination system because there is a probability of copying. One cannot abolish the administration offices of the Government, as there is probability of corruption.

There is a risk of artificial diamonds to be confused as original diamonds. Due to this will you avoid purchasing the necklace of original diamonds? You will take the help of an expert in selecting the original diamond. The human incarnation is the most convenient form for the worship and service. When you say that God is omni-potent it means that God has all powers. If He cannot come in human form, He is not having that power. Then He cannot be omni-potent. When He has the power to take the human incarnation, He has come in human form. Who are you to object that? He comes in human form for those devotees who are fond of worshipping Him through real service. They like to talk with God and live with God. They like to serve the God and see the pleasure in His face. They get full satisfaction by that. Therefore, God is in human form for such devotees only. Those who do not like the human form can worship God through formless inert items like space, energy etc. or inert forms like statues. But such worship is not the direct worship and it is only a representative worship. Neither space is God nor God is in the space. Similar is the case of a statue. Both formless space and formful statue stand as representatives of God only. Of-course God is pleased with the representative worship also, but the direct experience of God and the possibility of pleasing Him to the maximum extent are possible in the human body only.

A devotee asked a question about the possibility of talking with God directly. He should investigate the human incarnation at present and can talk directly. The procedure to identify the human incarnation based on the scriptures is extensively explained by Me in several answers to the questions that are placed in the web-site (www.universal-spirituality.org). One has to identify the present human incarnation using that procedure, in which the inseparable characteristics of God in the human incarnation are well explained. God is coming in human form in every human generation. If He had come only in a particular human generation God becomes partial to that generation only. God wants to talk with His devotees to please them by clearing all their doubts. This is the main purpose of the human incarnation of God. If you don’t believe the human incarnation you need not approach the human incarnation. But there is a devotee like Jyothi, who is very much anxious to talk with God. You can neither object her nor the God to take the human form. You carry on your representative worship. She is not objecting you. If you don’t want to purchase the original diamonds do not purchase. But you should not object a person who wants to purchase the original diamond. Thus God provided both the ways separately. You purchase the artificial diamonds and let somebody purchases the original diamond. Those who want to pray God without talking with God, let them have the representative worship having formless God or statues. Those who want to pray, talk and worship the living God, let them have the human incarnation. You should not object the desire of other devotee and also the God who is capable to fulfill the desire of that devotee.

Suppose some parents requested the management of a school to provide a park for waiting. The management is capable of doing so and it is the earnest desire of some parents. Suppose, there are some parents who do not like the facility of the park. They should not object those parents who want to use the facility of the park. They should also not oppose the management in the construction of the park. It is the duty of the management to inform the availability of the park so that any parent who ever desires to use that facility can use it apart from those parents who requested for it. If this general information is not provided to all the parents, some may ask the management regarding their negligence in informing the parents. Similarly, God comes in human form based on the prayers of some top most devotees to give direct experience. Through the human body the experience is not only direct but also complete. Such experience is not possible in the formless worship or in the worship of the statues. Such worship of formless God and statues is only a representative worship. It is just like worshipping the statue of the king and not the direct worship of the king. When you break a coconut near the statue, you can offer it by waving the hand and then eat it yourself. But when we break the coconut before the actual king, the king is fond of the pieces of coconut and will eat the entire coconut. When you want to avoid such inconvenience, you need not worship the human incarnation. You break the coconut before the statue and eat it yourself. But there is a fellow who wants to really offer the coconut to the king. He is pleased only when the king eats that coconut. He feels happy by seeing the happiness in the face of the king, while eating that coconut. What right you have to object such person? What right you have to object the king to come directly to eat that coconut for the happiness of a real devotee?
Uhhhmmmmm . . . which god are you asking about? :D
 

Bhaktajan II

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Did I mention I'm an atheist?

Based on who's authority?

if there is a god then all theist religions . . .

If there is a god then all theist religions . . . such informative data was recieved from above.

IOW, Knowledge of the Deity is "Revealed by the deity" and that info is passed down by "traditional lines of succession" to the present day.

Such revelations of the deity cannot be claimed by an individual as his own sole revelation ---The deity's revelations must be confirmed by the 3-Checks: "GURU, SADHU & SASTRA [teacher, teacher(s) & the text-books]"

Please don't conflate the bereft circumstances of how providence situates a soul in a setting/birth-place/time/locale/epoch ---that is without a connection to bonefide "GURU, SADHU & SASTRA" ---in which case, inlieu of bonefide advantages of such data, more mundane hard-scrabble lessons of life are first situated to be learnt inlieu of the more sublime and thus later, the divine & transcendent.

In-contrast (or the flip-side of the same coin) to that, if there is a god-less atheist religions . . . . . such informative data was recieved from above. IOW, Knowledge of the atheism too is "Revealed by the atheist Gurs" and that info is passed down by "traditional lines of succession" to the present day.
 

radarmark

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Ah bhaktajan, my friend. You are quite correct. Dean Fox, we all get our ideas from somewhere or someone else. You state you are an atheist, that mathematics is the "only discpline that can truely prove anything", and a chaos-vs.-order cosmology.

Like my friend asked, who did you get this atheistic notion from? A friend, Dawkins? Hutchens? Darwin? If one generalizes to ridicule the believer, turn-about is fair play.

Read some more math, especially Goedel... see nothing beyond arithmetic is provable (see his 1931 paper or just read wiki on "Godel's incompletness theorums"). It is like an onion, one cannot prove consistency and completeness unless one "adds another layer" with a new system that includes a Godel statement. But this new system cannot be proven to be consistent and complete (ad infinitum).

There are many order-disorder cosmologies, both non-theistic and theistic. Again, the problem is their consistency. The problem is having an ordered universe stifles G!d (I believe in a on-going inter-relationness between G!d and person and world), and without the creativity the G!d/dess injects, the world is quite boring. Oh, and if order reigned on the quantum level, all evolution, emergence, and physical reality ceases (we would live in a Einsteinian block universe and all things are pre-determined, oh and quantum could not work so we would self-destruct).

Morality and ethics are not dependent on G!d, but on whether we take care of what we are entrusted with (self, family, land, money, ideas....). No you do not need G!d to be good. Nor do you need dogmas and unquestioning faith.

But you do need G!d to see beyond the physical and the merely mental.
 

Lunitik

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God - for most - is absolutely a conception, an imagination.

True religion causes a realization of what is called God, then no questions arise, it is more true than anything you encountered previously. It is a shame this is not very prevalent in the world today, most are willing to just accept what is crammed into their heads about the way things work - it is all a blind faith, including accepting scientific statements.

Chaos and cosmos are also a perception, your mind seeks to make sense of chaos and creates a cosmos - science has shown expectations of the observer affect the behavior of particles. What if we're actually still in the big bang and everything going on is merely a result of the explosion? Can you prove it is not so?
 

radarmark

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"Chaos and cosmos are also a perception, your mind seeks to make sense of chaos and creates a cosmos - science has shown expectations of the observer affect the behavior of particles."

If you are using "perception" as "experience" ... no. The experience is not mediated by what you call "mind". Chaos is experienced, look at the formula for a Mandelbrot Set (or at the results if you need to). Kosmos is experienced, being the sum total of experiences. The uncertainty principle even if taken to the extreme of the delayed choice experiment has rather nothing to do with experience except in very specialized cases (quantum is about the very small and unseeable). What it does is give you a upper bound on your knowledge (I cannot be "absolutely sure").

"What if we're actually still in the big bang and everything going on is merely a result of the explosion?"

Since in the big bang no aggreated collections of matter or energy can exist, yes. There are actual neutron and protons, thefore the temperature has cooled off a bit.

"Can you prove it is not so?"

Probably not to your satisfaction. However, if you care to believe that your experiences are the fictions and fabrications of "bare quarks" be my guest, but it is a rather solipsist argument (could be true, who cares, indifferent to comment).
 

Persona

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Thanks for giving me more to think about, DeanFox.
Did I mention I'm an atheist? That aside my take is that if there is a god then all theist religions are wrong because they all imbued their impression of god with traits no god should have.
Says who? You? Well, I agree with you... so both of us say so. :p
Except I don't consider myself Atheist.
According to dictionaries, Atheists - are those who believe that God doesn't exist.
Yet, who's definition of God are they considering?
Most would agree on defining one aspect of God as the creator of the universe - or as Aristotle called it, "Prime Mover."
Isn't it silly to deny the existence of the universe - & isn't that what one is doing by denying a creator - however, or whoever it is?

I once considered setting up my own religion. Although I don't believe there is a god because there is no proof I can speculate to form the basis of a religion. Sadly my atheist conscience wouldn't let me abuse people like that.
Yeah, I think a service volunteer organization would be better way of gathering people to do GOoD.

All that said if I were to speculate the god would be a force for absolute order and the devil a force for absolute chaos. Before existance they were absolute states. Since nothing can be absolutely order or absolutely chaotic nothing existed; this may never have been the case as such is infinity.

Existance started when the two states met and became forces acting on the other to convert them to their absolute state. Everything that was, is and will be is a manifestation of the actions of the force of chaos and order on each other. Put simply take the atom, the force of order keeps it together while the force of chaos keeps it moving.

The two forces are manifest at all levels from the atom through the interactions of energies through to how things work in nature and even how we behave.
This paradox of both order and chaos, is something I have a hard time wrapping my mind around - but I think it's nevertheless true.
Maybe it's just because I'm trying to "judge" or distinguish which is right & which is wrong - when both are equally needed.

When we die our essence is recycled, we become chaos and order in another form.
That will be an adventure!

Basic morality is if it causes harm it is chaotic and wrong. If it helps bring order and improvement it's good.
For practical purposes, we must conclude before there is any real conclusion. Yet, in an honest search for truth about right and wrong... they are too mixed up. IE: Is it good if I let my child go cold as a result of forgetting her jacket? She may get sick... but then again, maybe she'll LEARN & be more careful about remembering things and considering consequences of her actions.

I could write a book on this showing how mathematics, the only discplin that can truely prove anything backs this up. My concepts fit scientifically. The basic unit of the universe is a single unit of chaos or order and neither can truely exist.
Why do you think mathematics is the only way to prove things?
It's not the only way to think - it's too limited to be the sole source of truth.

What you mentioned about the single unit of chaos or order reminds me of what Leibniz wrote... "... the Principle of Sufficient Reason, in virtue of which we believe that no fact can be real and no statement true unless it has a sufficient reason why it should be thus and not otherwise. Most frequently, however, these reasons cannot be known to us.... Now this interconnection, relationship, or this adaptation of all things to each particular one, and of each one to all the rest, brings it about that every simple substance has relations which express all the others and that it is consequently a perpetual living mirror of the universe."

I've just come from a discussion on churches, one which you touch on. The conclusion was that churches are redundant. One doesn't need them to be spiritual or be a good person or to do good things.

One can study all manner of philosophies and share ideas like never before. While some take comfort in religion one doesn't need churches; yes I believe the first 4 commandments were written by a human to create the need for churches.
Although I agree that we don't need churches, I think we need people - and church tends to be a convenient way of gathering people together.
I'd disagree about the 4 commandments (except maybe the 4th)... ironically, I think they are about not having church. Of course, many will disagree with me.
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
God is love... If you worship Jesus, Mohammad/Mecca or Buddha, you are having other gods before God.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
According to this commandment, it is wrong to have statues or pictures of Jesus, Buddha to enhance worship
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Any religion that does not strive to love others (esp. poor) and instead use Jesus' (or others who represent God) name to make money are violating this commandment.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
This commandment was exaggerated... to the point of how many steps one could take on the sabbath. Then Jesus taught, "The sabbath is made for man, not man for the sabbath" - In other words, religious rituals and teachings are for the spiritual learning & benefit of people... not to become gods/ends in themselves.

All theist religions follow the same basic tenets which are only worship this god. Be good (don't hurt people but more importantly do as you're told) and honor the family or clan (tithe to your church)

Other than be good, with the caveat that one must do what one is told above all else, the moral guidance of religions is rubbish. You need only look at the number of religious fundamentalists who support the sanctity of life and the death penalty to realise how poor religion is as a moral compass. Thou shalt not kill the anti abortionists scream (except for those on death row). An if the church says their needs to be a lynching that's good too.
If I understand you right... it is more moral to do good from your heart, than to be told to do it.
I think that religion acts like parents... some need parents still, even as adults.
Unfortunately, not many will do good out of their own good character... so we need laws... and religion can fill in where laws fail. Yet, they can also go to the other extreme and create shameful, fearful robots.
 

shanel

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God is spirit and which we can't see but realize it or feel it around us.
 

Lunitik

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could be true, who cares, indifferent to comment

It is strange you say this, yet try to explain through your knowledge how what is perceived is actually a cosmos. Mind has made sense of it, thus it seems like a cosmos to you, but bring mind out and look at the randomness of everything. There are things which can be explained in a calculation, and yet what can genuinely be calculated? Once an asteroid has been observed, we can see what it is going. Can we say why it is going there? What has caused this projectory, why this asteroid even has occurred? It is all utterly random, but if we look backwards we can make sense of it - it has become involved in this gravitation, it has encountered this force, this is its weight, thus this is its destination. If we look it seems to make sense now, we forget that simply in this happening at all there is no logic - the presence of gravitation, the forces creating momentum, the mass accumulated along the way, none of it needed to be at all.

We perceive cosmos where there is none because it feels better to find an answer, now we can rest in our knowledge. It is a trick of the mind, it never goes beyond what it cannot explain - it just is that way, or God made it that way - then we leave it alone. We never question our conclusions, we never ask why suddenly this makes sense to us. We feel we are no more a victim of randomness and that creates a comfort. Religiousness is to embrace that discomfort, to understand deeply that it is ok as it is, that there is no need to create a sense of security - and it is to know why there is no need.
 

Lunitik

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God is spirit and which we can't see but realize it or feel it around us.

Spirit is a translation from "pneuma", it simply means "breath" more correctly.

Certainly, you can realize - encounter the reality of - it, you can even feel it in a way... do you know you are its form though?

Jesus has become intoxicated by the divine, in it he has died and in the space he has vacated, the Spirit has occupied. This is what he means when he says to accept the Spirit, it is not that you can do it, you must surrender yourself so it can enter.

Only in this is the Spirit of God realized, otherwise it remains a concept - an imagining.
 

Lunitik

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How can one be reborn if one does not die first? There is already a being there, and it is utterly false, it is merely your conception. You have to permit the true being in, but it means you have to vacate the premises first - you have to put down your own will and accept the divine will.

The nature of sin is simply to go on missing the opportunity - its very meaning is simply "to miss". Jesus has not actually said "repent" - how can he? English has not been created yet! His word actually means "return" - it is sort of like the game Marco Polo: one person remains blind, and the other goes on calling "return", you do not know the way, but in the call you can tell where it is coming from, now you will not go on missing, you simply have to be aware of the sound.

You are being called to the Kingdom of God, and the caller is the Holy Spirit - God.
 

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The word translated as repent also means to answer... this is something unique to Christianity, it suggests it is God who is calling "Marco" and waiting for you to reply "Polo", but you do not. Now Jesus has come and said "Answer!" and still some do not reply "Polo".

It is a strange concept, that God cannot find you, that to be filled with the Holy Spirit, you merely have to show God the way. Most religions go utterly the other way, they show how to return, but they do not suggest God can come to you. In this way, Christianity is most beautiful, it has this added dimension that you needn't do anything but call him. If you are continuously finding reasons to keep him out though, how can he ever enter?

You still have to prepare the soil for the seed to be harvested, and for me it is dangerous to say nothing more need be done but believe. The seed is not planted merely by saying, and certainly not by researching how. The ground must be opened, fertilizer must be added, much has to be done. The seed wants to flower, but the conditions have to be ripe.
 

seattlegal

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The word translated as repent also means to answer... this is something unique to Christianity, it suggests it is God who is calling "Marco" and waiting for you to reply "Polo", but you do not. Now Jesus has come and said "Answer!" and still some do not reply "Polo".

It is a strange concept, that God cannot find you, that to be filled with the Holy Spirit, you merely have to show God the way. Most religions go utterly the other way, they show how to return, but they do not suggest God can come to you. In this way, Christianity is most beautiful, it has this added dimension that you needn't do anything but call him. If you are continuously finding reasons to keep him out though, how can he ever enter?

You still have to prepare the soil for the seed to be harvested, and for me it is dangerous to say nothing more need be done but believe. The seed is not planted merely by saying, and certainly not by researching how. The ground must be opened, fertilizer must be added, much has to be done. The seed wants to flower, but the conditions have to be ripe.

Repent as used at Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repent: Strong's Greek #3340

metanoeō

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539) or "with mindfulness" (understanding)
meta
1) with, after, behind


noeō
1) to perceive with the mind, to understand, to have understanding
2) to think upon, heed, ponder, consider



 
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