Salvation, a Free Gift?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by dattaswami1, Aug 26, 2007.

  1. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member

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    Salvation, a Free Gift?


    A Christian devotee asked whether the salvation is a free gift of God and not based on the work?

    This is the climax of foolishness. Even in the worldly affairs, a selection board sits and filters the deserving candidate to give the gift. If anybody in this world gives a free gift without seeing the deserving qualifications, people will call him as a full mad person. Do you treat God as mad person, who is wiser than the wisest in this world? Jesus asked His devotees to go to villages and propagate His knowledge. Even today the Christian fathers wander all over the earth and they are propagating the divine knowledge by constant lecturers. Is this not work? If salvation is a free gift why should they work? How much divine work Jesus carried on? In Hinduism you can support free gift by saying that a soul might have done lot of good work in the previous birth and the gift may appear as free gift because the soul did not perform any good work in this birth. But Christianity does not believe the re-birth and therefore such possibility of explanation is also ruled out here.

    His another question is that Christianity encourages the praise and prayer of the Lord for certain materialistic benefits. He asks whether such prayer is correct.

    The answer is that such a stage is not incorrect but it is a lower stage. The LKG class is the beginning of school education. You cannot say that LKG class is not correct. It is correct but it is lowest. The first step is true but does the lowest step exist on the ground. If you take the case of Jesus, He is in the highest step. He also praised and prayed the Lord but never asked anything for himself. He asked anything only for the propagation of the fame of the Lord. The lowest step is certainly better than the pit, which is lower than the ground. Thus the beginner is certainly better than the atheist, who does not believe God at all. Even though the beginner is selfish, atleast he believes the existence of God.
     
  2. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    Jesus paid the price its ... FREE to any that believe in Him

    Because we submit to God we seek to please Him and we do that by spreading the gospel message. That is NOT work... that is pleasing our God in heaven.

    It brings us true joy and we are HAPPY to see a soul saved...
     
  3. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I think FS answered your question concisely.

    v/r

    Q
     
  4. JosephM

    JosephM Well-Known Member

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    Greetings All,

    It seems to me that the word "free" has no conditions or restraints.
    Free: Not subject to a given condition; exempt:
    Not subject to external restraint:
    Therefor, if an offerring or believing is a requirement, condition or restraint to salvation then it is not by definition "free"

    Having said thusly, For clarification, it seems to me that salvation IS a free gift and requires no condition nor performance to be as such. This may seem contrary but perhaps only when seen from a carnal point of view.

    Love and Peace,
    JM
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Lol, like I suggested. FS was concise.
     
  6. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    the Ransom a free gift
     
  7. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    No, nothing is free Mee. We must give something up, and that is our natural life.

    That is what non Christians have the hardest time coming to grips with.
     
  8. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    We must give something up in order to be free. lol. Otherwise we'd be enslaved.:D That's the price of freedom. It's a bit ironic if you first think about it, but not once you know where you're coming from and where you're going.

    Yes, we must do something to be free, especially if we're enslaved by a particular concept.

    Actually, referring to your quote on the "natural life" it really depends on which "natural life" you are talking about. The natural life of earth, or the natural life of heaven?:)

    Based on that terminology, it is the "natural life" of heaven that will lead to a state of freedom and liberation, as that is the life for which we were made. It is the life of bliss and collective and individual harmony (between others and within ourselves). The natural life of earth is enslaving because of materialistic and hedonistic desires and money. It is that "natural life of earth" that destroys our innocence. We surrender a part of our spontaneity for the political, social and economic systems that run today's world. In other words, there is a part of this world that isn't natural and that part of the world is consuming a part of us that is "natural." Our spiritual life is being sucked up by a force that dehumanises our existence. (ok, yes -- that's the conspiracy theorist in me.:eek:)
     
  9. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    That is not actually true. He did asked something for Himself. In the Garden of Gesthemene, Jesus prayed to the Father, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Yet He was subservient to the will of the Father, to suffer and die as He did, to be forsaken by God. What a gift! And it wasn't free, Someone had to pay for it.
     
  10. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus. ROMANS 2;23-24
    (Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
    (Ephesians 1:7) By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
     
  11. Art_Sherwood

    Art_Sherwood New Member

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    The best way to understand salvation is to read what the scriptures say about it, and not just one or two select passages.
    Matt. 1:32 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Matt. 24:13 (Mark 13:13) - But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    John 10:9 - I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
    Acts 2:21 (Rom. 10:13) - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Acts 16:31-33 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    Eph. 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    James 2:14,17 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    When on reads the scriptures in their entirety, it becomes fairly clear how it works. Salvation is a free gift, meaning there is no possible way we can *earn* it. We could go about doing good works from morning till night each day for the rest of our lives and still not make up for even a fraction of the price pain by our Savior in blood. We surely can, however, disqualify ourselves from it. Christ offers salvation to us as a free gift, however, we must reach out to receive it. First we must have faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is much more than a mere profession of belief. Faith is a deep-rooted conviction that Christ was who he said he was and that we will do what he asked us to do. Christ said, "Come, follow me", "If ye love me, keep my commandments", "Go and sin no more". When we truly have faith in Christ, the kind of faith that can save us, we will begin turn away from those things which are contrary to the laws of God. We will begin to repent of our sins. Matthew wrote that Christ will save us "from [our] sins" not "in our sins". After we have begun to excercise faith in Christ unto repentance, the next step is to enter into a covenant with God through the ordinance of baptism. Christ himself set the example for us when he went to John the Baptist. After baptism by water comes the baptism by fire or of the spirit. The Holy Ghost is able to enter into our hearts and begin to burn away the many impurities we have accumulated through our sins. He begins to change our hearts to become more in tune with Christ's. He begins to teach us truths and guide our actions. So long as we stay true to our covenant and try to do what we know is right, repenting each time we go astray, He will remain with us until that final day when our hearts are finally pure and we are able to enter in to the presence of God.
    The problem most people have with the Faith vs. Works debate is that they don't correctly understand what Faith is. Some try to excuse their bad behavior or lack of good behavior based on the assumption that their shallow profession of Christ somehow counts for faith and therefore they are saved. Others often put all of the emphasis on their good works, thinking that by doing good works will somehow earn their way into heaven, that they are saving themselves. Even worse, they may think that they are *better* than others around them because they are doing so much more good work. Both of these ways of thinking are wrong and are not in harmony with what the scriptures teach.
     
  12. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member

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    Real Liberation & Salvation


    This physical world, which consists of the inert objects like Sun, Moon, Stars
    Air, Earth etc., is not the world, which is binding you and this is not
    The world from which you have to attain the liberation or salvation
    If you get salvation from this physical world it is called the death

    Death is not the salvation since even after death you are bound by the bonds
    The bonds are not with the physical world but they are with your family members
    It is this family that constitutes your entire world from which you must be salvated

    The physical world is real and it is unreal for the creator only and not for you
    You are a part and parcel of this world and if you say that this world is unreal
    You too become unreal, your unreal world is your own family, which is created
    By yourself only and why this is unreal?

    If you analyse, these bonds did not exist
    Before this birth and do not exist after this birth and hence are not existing
    During this birth also, Sankara told that temporary is always unreal
    Therefore, Gita emphasizes for the detachment from these worldly bonds

    Jesus goes one step further and advises you even to hate these family bonds
    This is surprising but if you analyse, I should say, He is absolutely correct
    If you analyse deeply, these family members deserve your hatred and not love
    The reason is that these family members were very vehement enemies to you
    In the previous birth you stole their hard earned property and fought with them
    Now they have come to collect their wealth from you along with the
    Compound interest, they are in the form of wife and children and you are bound

    To pay them according to the force of Karma Chakra i.e., associated with Kala Chakra
    Payment of loans is Karma Chakra and payment in this birth is Kala Chakra
    The same is said “Runanubandha Rupena Pasu Patni Sutalayaah”
    The three strongest bonds are with money, wife and children and these three
    Are called as “Eeshanaas”, which are the stainless steel chains, which never
    Corrode, the secret in the force of these three bonds is only the force of Karma
    The Karma is the payment of the loans with interest and for that you have to earn
    Therefore, you are forced by Karma to earn the money and that is the spontaneous
    Attraction to the money, the Karma is dragging you to earn the money so that
    You can pay to your enemies who are surrounding you for the collection of loans

    Thus these three bonds are inter related and amalgamated by the force of Karma
    These enemies are in the mask of friendship and love with you and you do not
    Remember your previous birth, which is again due to the force of karma only
    If you remember the previous birth and that enmity you will not repay the loan
    Therefore, by the force of Karma Chakra only you do not remember previous birth
    These enemies can collect their money only under the mask of love and friendship

    These enemies are collecting their money in the form of work and also money
    The mother repays the loan by doing work like bathing and clothing the children
    Such sacrifice of work by the mother is coming under Karma Sanyasa
    The father repays the money by giving his hard earned property to the children
    And this repayment of direct wealth comes under Karma Phala Tyaga.

    But these enemies are not satisfied with simple repayment of their loans
    If a thief steals your money and if you catch him will you leave him
    Just by taking your money? You will torture him and then only leave
    Similarly, you have stolen their property and you tortured them
    Therefore, they have caught the thief in this birth and collect their money
    [FONT=&quot]Apart from that they will torture you by dragging you down from the Lord[/FONT]


    If you progress in your spiritual path and reach and please the Lord
    You are saved permanently and attain eternal happiness here and there
    Now these enemies obstruct your spiritual path and drag you back
    From that Eternal divine benefit and due to that you will fall in this world-cycle
    In this cycle, which is the permanent hell, you are tortured forever
    By this, their vengeance is subsided and they stand around you even
    In your last minutes so that you will be attracted by them then also

    And you will not remember the Lord even in the last minute
    This is the reason why all your family members reach you even before your death
    They reach you when they hear that you are seriously ill, they are very alert
    But you fool! You are not alert about them and remember them only even on the
    Death bed! Is your this world not really unreal? You analyse the fact

    I say this family world is the most unreal world because these bonds are not only
    Unreal according to the analysis of Sankara, but also they are the bonds
    Of enmity and so must be hated according to the Holy Jesus
    You are thinking the enemy as your friend! How unreal is this bond?
    First you come out of this unreal world created by you due to your past deeds

    People say often that the world is unreal, yes! It is absolutely unreal
    But the world is not this physical world created by the Lord
    The unreal world is your family created by yourself due to your past karma

    Similarly, your religion is another broader unreal world created by you
    Your fellow religious people obstruct you from entering Universal spirituality
    [FONT=&quot]Because they are your enemies in the mask of friendship in this birth[/FONT]

    You harmed them spiritually in the previous birth and therefore they have come
    Now here as your friends belonging to the same religion and revenge upon you
    When you come out of these two worlds, which are well and river
    You will enter the Universal Spirituality, which is the infinite ocean
     
  13. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    Im wondering why this guy is being allowed to preach his religion on here? I understand that the mods are supposed to lighten up? but.... does this mean I can go on to hari krishna forum and pronounce the kingship of Jesus Christ and that He is Risen? If so let me know Im dying to do that very thing.
     
  14. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member

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    Dear Faithfulservant;

    You have misunderstood, i am again telling you is that, one should never ever change ones religion. If one cannot find God in one religion he can never find God in any other religion also. So understand these facts and analyse with your brain. Emotion do not have any place in spirituality.


    There is only one Lord, the scriptures came from this single God only. They are contradicting because of inclusion or deletion by some vested interests. So try to learn the divine knowledge of God, and analyse it. Do not be biased.

    The divine knowledge alone can be the proof of the God as per Veda. The exceptional quality of the divine knowledge (Prajnanam) is the spontaneous proof. You can experience the available highest quality of the knowledge and there is no need of any testing procedure for that. How are you selecting the Miss. World? You are experiencing the spontaneous beauty directly and there is no need of instruments to test the beauty. You are selecting the top most beauty in the available competition. If you say that some higher beauty may exist somewhere and some time in this world, the result of the competition can never be declared.

    Only ugly sadists may tell like that. Gita says that the possessor of such top most knowledge that can give the most perfect guidance to the souls is God Himself (Jnanitvatmaiva…). The importance of Divine knowledge is only due to the importance of correct guidance in the spiritual path. For this the exhibition of miracle is not required. The exhibition of super power through the miracle is needed only for the low level atheists and to punish the low level devils. When a Police Officer is invited to address the college, he goes in normal civil dress. When he has to deal with criminals, he will be in the Police uniform. Even there, he will send his subordinates in the uniform to deal with the criminals. But he will not send his subordinates in uniform to address the college.

    Similarly God comes to preach the Divine knowledge and sends His subordinates to exhibit miracles. Since majority is in the lower strata, the miracles have to be exhibited widely. Hence God gives the Super powers even to devils. The miracles include even the miraculous experiences in the life of any one, which prove the existence of unimaginable God.

    Miracles and knowledge are the two requirements of people here in lower and higher levels respectively. Generally God meets directly the requirement of higher level. The liberated souls who are the servants of God generally meet the requirement of lower level.
     
  15. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant Well-Known Member

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    blah blah blah...

    God gave emotions.. Love is an emotion..

    See... you're wrong!
     
  16. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member

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    Faithfulservant;

    The fundamental difference between yourself and myself is that you accept your religion only and you do not accept any other religion and you also do not accept in the unity of all the religions, where as I accept your religion, any other religion and also I accept the unity of all the religions. You do not like me since I do not belong to your religion only and therefore you treat me as your enemy. I like you since I belong to your religion also and therefore I treat you as my friend.
     
  17. JosephM

    JosephM Well-Known Member

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    Faithfulservant,

    Perhaps Christian Love is not an emotion. It seems the Love that Jesus preached was beyond emotions. The kind that returned good for evil and a loving kindness even toward our enemies. It seems to me it is unconditional and voluntary and is the very essence of God. Then again, perhaps our understandings differ and you may enlighten me.

    Love in Christ,
    JM
     
  18. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member

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    Faithfulservant;

    Please have patience to analyse my replies. Lord never force anything on any body. Lord is impartial and preaches to all alike, even to atheist so that He is not blamed in the upper world for not preaching any soul. This show the infinite kindness of Lord.
     
  19. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti Well-Known Member

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    As I see it, religious practice served to reinforce spiritual emotion -- life giving emotion --which in turn facilitates right thought and right action.
     

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