Hardline takeover of mosques?

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Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.
Riyadh ul Haq, who supports armed jihad and preaches contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus, is in line to become the spiritual leader of the Deobandi sect in Britain. The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taleban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques, according to a police report seen by The Times.
The Times has gained access to numerous talks and sermons delivered in recent years by Mr ul Haq and other graduates of Britain’s most influential Deobandi seminary near Bury, Greater Manchester.
Intended for a Muslim-only audience, they reveal a deep-rooted hatred of Western society, admiration for the Taleban and a passionate zeal for martyrdom “in the way of Allah”.
A commentator on religious radicalism in Pakistan, where Deobandis wield significant political influence, told The Times that “blind ignorance” on the part of the Government in Britain had allowed the Deobandis to become the dominant voice of Islam in Britain’s mosques.
Khaled Ahmed said: “The UK has been ruined by the puritanism of the Deobandis. You’ve allowed the takeover of the mosques. You can’t run multiculturalism like that, because that’s a way of destroying yourself. In Britain, the Deobandi message has become even more extreme than it is in Pakistan. It’s mind-boggling.”


Hardline takeover of British mosques -Times Online

Comments?


s.
 
This has been also happening in the US and as long as they are able to portray actions in Afghanistan and Iraq as Christian/Western v. Islam and as long as a huge percentage of westerners see all Muslims as of the same cloth...I'm afraid it will continue.

Western rhetoric and racism has as much to blame as anyone. I've heard repeatedly and a majority opinion that folks think the Koran and Islam is out to wipe out the infidels, jihad and intifada are intended to make everyone Muslim or else. As long as we (as a group) keep purporting this to be true, as long as we continue our prejudice tendencies in this regard...we'll see the other side acting accordingly.

As always peace begins with me, and seeking first to understand, opening the lines of communication...
 
Wil, I've seen enough video footage of Muslim radicals speaking to know that among that group it really is "infidels must convert or die.":( earl
 
earl said:
Wil, I've seen enough video footage of Muslim radicals speaking to know that among that group it really is "infidels must convert or die.":( earl
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You are exactly correct but comparing Muslim radicals to Islam is like having the KKK represent all of Christianity, or Farakan represent all people of color. You can't take the rhetoric of the few and apply it to the minority....but that is what much of us have done, we take the radicals and imply the rest are just that way... and if we treat them that way we increase the likelihood of them believing the hate speech as we are the example!!
 
I don't confuse the few with the many. But it seems that some folk who take your perspective (I won't lump you in with the many of them necessarily;)) are saying if we only preach love and tolerance and eliminate any racism we seem to be evidencing among non-Muslim folk toward Muslims-of which I have none by the way- these rabid, irrational, zealous radicals will allow us to live in peace. Afraid it's not that simple unfortunately. earl
 
earl said:
I don't confuse the few with the many. But it seems that some folk who take your perspective (I won't lump you in with the many of them necessarily;)) are saying if we only preach love and tolerance and eliminate any racism we seem to be evidencing among non-Muslim folk toward Muslims-of which I have none by the way- these rabid, irrational, zealous radicals will allow us to live in peace. Afraid it's not that simple unfortunately. earl
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oh, you can mix me in that bunch....sort of...I'm not suggesting we only preach love and tolerance, I'm saying we should only display, act of love, forgiveness and tolerance...

Its never been tried. War, tit for tat vengence, gratuitous violence, pre-emptive strikes, that has all been tried and to what end...it has been how successful? I'd say lets try peace and love and forgiveness, it'll take how many lives before we get 1/3 of the way to the death and destruction that war has caused?? Why are we willing to send folks to die for something that has never worked in the history of civilization but not try the alternate?
 
There is no denying there is a war with Islam. People who preach the sword should be dealt with swiftly and permanently. Life in Jail...where life means life. Hard labour preferably. Only visitors immediate family. Cut them off from what they do, deny them martyrdom. No second chances.

Tao
 
Tao, let's not mistake our true enemy which is not Islam by any means. It is cruelty and intolerance in all its variations, including in our own hearts.:) earl
 
ohhhhhh but i wishhhhhhhh
You think these self righteous fools preach your ideals?
I am secular...no "God" to punt.. these guys are as far removed from "faith" as an Inuit from the desert. When somebody denies you your humanity they forfeit theirs. No second chances.

Tao
 
earl said:
Tao, let's not mistake our true enemy which is not Islam by any means. It is cruelty and intolerance in all its variations, including in our own hearts.:) earl
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Hear Hear! :)

The real enemy is indeed 'the enemy within our own hearts'.

Peace to all :)
 
Yup, these late nite posts after a wee dram or 3 are most revealing!! I suppose its really reflecting my growing impatiance that all religion is flawed and destined to be a cause of conflict. Of course I know that it can bring comfort and peace to most. I did not have that much to begin with, and its fast ebbing away. But is the comfort it gives people even a good thing? Or is it a gross self deception that builds the foundations for the extremes of man's inhumanity to man across the world? Remove God, you remove most of the backbone for any argument for human conflict. So what use is God to us?

I would like to see religious extremists removed from the picture but it is not lost on me that doing so can be seen as a denial of freedom of expression. Despite the PC denial of a war with Islam it is a fact. in survey after survey across the Islamic world this is the perception amongst Muslims. If the so called majority of peaceable Muslims will not deal with the extremists in their midst then we must. In this case this is a UK issue of how we deal with these hatemongers. We do not limit it to radical Imams and there are regularly prosecutions against neo-nazi racist groups/individuals too. I think we have to remove the excuse of Political or Religious rights of expression as soon as they are preaching or inciting hate. Cowards hiding behind a veil of religious legitimacy should not be tolerated within or without.

Tao
 
the question is what do we consider "hardline"? what is exercising me at present is precisely this:

wil said:
You are exactly correct but comparing Muslim radicals to Islam is like having the KKK represent all of Christianity, or Farakan represent all people of color. You can't take the rhetoric of the few and apply it to the minority....but that is what much of us have done, we take the radicals and imply the rest are just that way... and if we treat them that way we increase the likelihood of them believing the hate speech as we are the example!!
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what bothers me, you see, is just where the line between this supposed minority of bad apples and what is referred to as the "consensus of scholars". our very own abdullah, as posting above, is discussing this with me on the islam board at this very moment and is maintaining that i (and anyone who has heard a "clear message of islam" and have not converted, which probably means all of you as well) are "kuffar" - i.e. rejecters of G!D; the question then is, OK, if he's not willing to kill me because i'm a kaafir, that's very nice, but he still holds objectionable opinions about me the same way as an evangelical that says i'm going to hell because i haven't taken jesus as my personal saviour. the point it, is that an acceptable state of affairs? does it make islam as a whole intolerant - i would argue that, if he is correct, it does. fortunately at present i am unconvinced that he is a representative of the authoritative consensus.

come over and take a look at the discussion:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/rabbinic-interpretation-and-jewish-law-7708.html

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Ty BB for link which I followed and skimmed quickly.

The question of what constitutes religious incitement to hatred and violence should always be put before a secular jury according to our laws. Our only real cause for concern about what is being preached in this country comes from Islam and Ultra Nationalism. In the case of Islam to deny there is a war on is IMO naive. That most certainly is the view in the street when young Muslims are asked that question. It is no good, in this age, deporting the fomenters of hatred as they can carry on online from anywhere. They should be locked up for a long, long...........long time.

Despite the valiant efforts of MW to show me that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceable people the fact remains that "millions" have a deep seated hatred of the west and what we stand for. Well I am proud of the societies we find in Europe as a whole. Less so in the US which scarily is swinging fast and hard toward a Imperialist Christian Fundamentalist oligarchy. And I believe that in order for the west to build upon the open, fair and secular society we enjoy we must protect ourselves from the enemies preaching from within. We cannot afford to be soft on those that openly preach hatred to the disaffected youth in our minority groups.

And it is not just for our own security but for the quality of life these same youths should have. They should not be taught that strapping on explosives and killing innocents is a noble deed. Anyone who teaches or condones that in any way is to my mind guilty of conspiracy to murder, and deserves severe sanction.

Tao
 
Despite my opposition to grading all of Islam alike and all Muslims as terrorists you do have a point however the instigator as I see it, and those who incite the inciters were not Muslim....the coalition of the willing made a calculated risk and lost.

We had this radical Osama who we supported in his efforts against the big bear Russia while he was defending Afghanistan...of course Russia fell and we dropped him and his clan like a hot potato....so he peculated, fomented and planned and got his band of merry men from Saudi to attack civilians in the US carrying out his threat of 1998.

We in turn decided Iraq was involved after we couldn't find Osama and since the house of Saud were our buddies...we needed some scapegoat and satisfaction...

So we did the math and ignored it. What math? Well when we were after Osama the world supported us. But when we pre-emptively struck at WMO regime change democracy country building axis of evil eliminating territory...we knew we were moving the fight from western soil to middle eastern and would/could be assumed to be crusading against Muslims...but we figured the risk was small...

After all say of a 1000 Muslims 10% are willing to listen to the radicals...and surely only 10% of them would keep listening....and surely only 10% of them would actually get excited about it, and only 10% of them would actually take up arms and be willing to do something about it. So what are we talking about one one hundredth of one percent...ppshaw....that's nothing.

Unfortunately Alfred E Newman and his minions and the coalition of the coerced didn't do the math right, as since there are a billion and a half Muslims, 1/100 of 1% is one hundred and fifty thousand people!!

So yes, we could say if 99.99% of Muslims are not radical enough to raise arms and bombs CURRENTLY....but 150,000 of them just might be!

And this is all there fault?? Give me a break.
 
i know what you're saying, wil, but the fact that it's not 100% "their fault" doesn't exonerate them 100% from taking responsibility. this is what i say to muslims - if you don't like the way islam is going, TAKE IT BACK. islam should not be bought and sold by the wahhabis, propagated by the deobandis and then every muslim in the world has to deal with the consequences. similarly,
the supply chain of christianity shouldn't be controlled by US evangelists and judaism shouldn't be bought and sold by armchair right-wingers in the states, represented by loony, moshiach-drunk west bank settlers and then every jew in the world gets called a racist imperialist apartheid-monger. if you don't like what's going on, GET OUT THERE AND START YELLING.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
earl said:
I don't confuse the few with the many. But it seems that some folk who take your perspective (I won't lump you in with the many of them necessarily;)) are saying if we only preach love and tolerance and eliminate any racism we seem to be evidencing among non-Muslim folk toward Muslims-of which I have none by the way- these rabid, irrational, zealous radicals will allow us to live in peace. Afraid it's not that simple unfortunately. earl
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I agree with you earl, this is not something that can be solved from outside Islam and there is no simple solution. If you simply lock the radicals up you give others an excuse to claim persecution by the west and convert more minds to the radical approach.

So I have a question for everybody. Many people, myself included, say that it is up to peaceful Muslims to speak out against the radicals, to discourage our young from going to these mosques and teaching our young the right and peaceful path of Islam.

The question is HOW? If your faith or group had a radical extremist minority, hell bent on causing murder and mayhem in the world, what do you actually feel you could do about it?

Okay so I can post on the internet, I can speak to the young men I encounter and I can try to persuade people not to attend these mosques, however I never meet truly radical people and have no way of re-educating them even if I did. Yes, perhaps I can persuade my husband and some close friends that violence is not the answer - that is until the next bomb drops on a Muslim village somewhere in the Middle East!

Who do you feel needs to take responsibility for dealing with this radical wing and how can they achieve the re-education of these people?

Wil, thank you so much for your analysis of the part the west plays in this radical behaviour. I have said before and shall say again, I saw at first hand the effect that western policy has on young Muslim minds during the recent Israel/Lebanon conflict. I believe there is right and wrong on both sides of that particular fence but the reaction to Mr Bush restating his absolute support for the Israeli government, while thousands of women and children were being killed really worried me. People with no radical views at all began to speak in terms of the western desire to crush the Muslim people and a need for Muslim countries to fight back. We all know Bush and his allies will go after Iran next and I dread to think what this will add to the cocktail of fear, violence and hatred.

Add to these problems the poverty found in some Muslim countries. Since I came home to the UK the price of bread has increased 50% in Egypt. For you or I that may be a small matter but for my husbands family it is a matter of further struggle, anger and feeling persecuted. The young men will now watch their families struggle even more and then some self important supposed scholar will say 'fight for Islam against the western persecutors, you will become a martyr and Allah will bless your family'. Shall we guess what happens next?!

Sorry if I sound a bit lost in all this but quite frankly I am, change within Islam needs to happen but I cannot see where this will come from. We are seeing an increasing number of Islamic scholars in the west preaching tolerence and peace but they are dismissed by the radicals as western puppets. There simply is no simple solution imo.
 
Muslimwoman said:
If your faith or group had a radical extremist minority, hell bent on causing murder and mayhem in the world, what do you actually feel you could do about it?
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As one individual? I think I would have to examine my faith, specifically with regard to the parts being "quoted" by the "extremists" and confirm if the parts were genuine to the faith that I felt to be a part of, in which case I would have to reject such a faith. Alternatively, if I decided that it was the individuals who had a "deluded" or faulty understanding of the faith I would, I hope, stand by what I felt was right. I can understand what a difficult position one must feel in. :(

s.
 
Snoopy said:
As one individual? I think I would have to examine my faith, specifically with regard to the parts being "quoted" by the "extremists" and confirm if the parts were genuine to the faith that I felt to be a part of, in which case I would have to reject such a faith. Alternatively, if I decided that it was the individuals who had a "deluded" or faulty understanding of the faith I would, I hope, stand by what I felt was right. I can understand what a difficult position one must feel in. :(

s.
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Thanks Snoop, this is exactly what I have done and found their thinking to be faulty. That just leaves me as an individual with little other than an ability to type on forums.

I just hear myself and others keep repeating that we, the moderates must do something but what? I have no idea how to stop this, my magic wand is broken and if I could stop it today, of course I would.
 
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