The resurrection of Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Ahanu, Sep 12, 2007.

  1. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    I have grown up in church all my life. They taught me that the resurrection was physical, and so has every other church I have been to. Also, there is a huge disagreement over it. The Case for Christ teaches that it was a physical resurrection, for instance.

    1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

    1 Corinthians 15:8 Last of all he appeared to me also.

    However, the writer never discusses verse 44

    1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    So, if I were to agree solely with the interpretation that it was only a spiritual resurrection, how do I handle Acts chapter 2? Because it says God would not allow his holy one to see decay.

    Acts 2:31 he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.

    Was Peter talking about the physical body or the spiritual body here?

    By insisting on the literal interpretations, does that kill the meaning of what the text is saying?

    Does the text teach that Jesus was physically present? For example, eating and talking with him after the resurrection in the gospels.

    I could really used some help on this.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I'm a little confused...where is the disagreement if this is what you've been taught and heard in every church. What does your church say about the discrepancy you read in the scripture.

    I believe you are correct. If we insist on literal interpretations we quickly find there are many lines we sure don't wish to read literally. But even us metaphysician types find plenty we do wish to interpret literally much to the chagrin of literalists.
     
  3. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    Paul speaks of a non-physical resurrection because he wants his purely visionary experience to be considered just as good as the encounters the original disciples had. I don't think Paul believes that the risen Jesus was the kind of being who could eat broiled fish with his old friends.
     
  4. okieinexile

    okieinexile Well-Known Member

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    The Resurrection was physical. They could touch the wounds in his hands and side. However, His body was different. It could be in different places at the same time, sites separated by miles. It could enter and leave through closed doors.
     
  5. Sean H.

    Sean H. Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, there's no reason that that can't refer to the spiritual body. I believe it refer's to the faith of christ and how it didn't die.

    Also, there's what the Bible says, the literal words on the page that have been orally kept until they were written down and then translated, and there's people who say what the Bible says. I really want you to distinguish between the two, and look at all the evidence. Have an objective view and an open mind in all cases.

    1. The original Gospel of Mark ended at Mark 16:8 with an empty tomb, later it was made to be like the other gospels.

    2. The Bible is full of metaphoric language. It uses seeing and hearing as metaphors for knowing Christ and having faith in him. The same applies to the end of the gospels when the disciples did not at first see him.

    3. Most churches like to teach the Bible literally. In my opinion, the spiritual and metaphoric meanings are far more important and make more sense. I believe that if you take the Bible literally, you will miss much of its message and meaning and will approach the word of God similar to how the Jews expected literal fulfillment of the Messiah prophecies.

    4. As with many stories of the ancient world, in my opinion, Jesus's death and ressurection was magnified with time. I believe that the spirit of Jesus touched the disciples after his death and they were reminded that the cause of Christ was not dead and they began to put his principles into practice, dedicate their lives to Christ's cause, and spread his teachings across the world.
     
  6. earl

    earl ?

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    Hi fellow Jayhawker.:) A couple of "supernatural' abilities you note for Jesus here are among the types of "siddhis" traditionally noted as possible for the spiritually adept of various traditions:

    The Nine Main Siddhis Plus Eight Additional Siddhis

    Of course, don't know that in these cases we have anything but a few purported eye witnesses and/or oral history to back the claims up, but interesting cross- traditional info I think. earl
     
  7. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Hey Wil

    The church I attend, and all the rest I have ever attended, taught that it is physical, but I want to believe that it is spiritual. Does Christ's physical body just float up into the clouds? LOL. You see, I have been reading the works of Karen Armstrong and William Blake. They teach great points about the resurrection. If you are teaching that it was a physical resurrection, then you totally miss the spiritual meaning of what the bible is saying. The problem is that you can not teach that at most churches. This is the problem William Blake encountered with the church. I am in a youth group, and I have been known to teach sometimes, so I need clarification on the matter. Sorry to bore you, but you asked for it!

    Sounds spiritual to me. . .How does your argument stand with 1 Cor. chapter 15 by Paul? He clearly says that the material body dies, whereas the spiritual body is raised, yet church has built doctrines around a physical resurrection. I leave the pews baffled and confused.:confused:

    I did not know that. I will check into it. Uh, where did you get this information? I would like to read it. :D

    OK

    That makes things clearer. In fact, you are saying that to interpret the resurrection as a physical resurrection of Jesus is to be mislead. This makes sense to me, because I was thinking that if it was physical, it would make the ascension into heaven a complete mystery. I mean, if a person is going to defend the physical resurrection, how does he/she make sense of that? Never heard anyone put up a good defense for that one yet. I did not find it in the Case for Christ.

    Thanks for the information.
     
  8. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    How's that, earl, you mean in the case of Christianity, right? Because I'd say the numbers of other adepts (saints, yogis, etc.), who have undergone the translation (or Annunciation, or Resurrection experience) as did Christ Jesus, far outweigh the Christian example any way you slice it ... easily by a factor of say, 100 to 1? No no, I'm being far too conservative! ;)

    It's not just a few, scattered souls here & there, or at least, it wasn't like the case of Jesus of Nazareth was the first recorded instance of this - you know: crucified, died, rose in three days, made himself (or herself) manifest in the flesh for all to see & hear & touch thing. This happened thousands of years before Christ Jesus, in the Egyptian Mysteries, as in those of other traditions (Chaldean, Hellenic, Indian, etc.) ... and of course, as with so much else, Christianity took this prototype, or motif, and grafted onto it a unique interpretation, or presentation of the Initiation experience.

    Not that Christianity didn't have its own unique contribution, nor am I saying the Jesus was just another adept (though in one sense, this is certainly true). But there have been Initiates since Jesus who have undergone the Resurrection, including St. Paul after him ...

    ... and the Theosophical tradition, as well as esoteric contributions since then, cast much light on the mystery of the translation of the flesh - or the Resurrection & Ascension experience. One can trace, in the lives of specific adepts, approximately when & even where this experience occurred. But my point is that we have eyewitness testimony in many of these cases, much more recent, and even better attended than the mythical Crucifixion of Christ Jesus and the Resurrection that followed.

    Again, I do not mean `mythical' in the sense that there was no Jesus, or that the events of his life were pure legend, or contrived. The Gospel account has clearly been altered to emphasize certain key points, including the Initiation experience itself, but I essentially accept the broad brushstrokes of the Gospel story at face value.

    Let us remember, the phenomenon of bi-location has been attested to in perhaps dozens of saints and gurus down through the ages. Immediately the accounts of Appollonius of Tyana will come to mind. And although historians place him as a contemporary of Jesus, the esoteric record makes it clear: Jesus of Nazareth lived and died a FULL CENTURY prior to the dates that are commonly accepted. Curiously, then, the link between Jesus and Appollonius is that between one incarnation and the next, of the SAME SOUL.

    But presumably, St. Paul, after his own Resurrection experience, would have been able to bi-locate, as can the adepts of the East (and of every tradition). And this has been witnessed, by a whole roomful of onlookers, in the 20th Century, if not more recent ... right here in the West. I would refer anyone interested to a series of books called, The Initiate (especially Vols. II & III).

    On a more practical and relevant note, it might be worth looking at Ch. 7 of Annie Besant's `Esoteric Christianity,' which can be found online, here. This chapter is on the Atonement, and I was reading it just earlier today. The focus is on the Sacrifice of Deity and of Christ, and on the significance of pain as we experience it ... relative to God's Plan for his Creatures and His Creation.

    This has everything to do with the Sacrifice of Christ Jesus & the Resurrection, and I especially appreciate the treatment that Annie Besant has given to the subject.

    ~Andrew
     
  9. Sean H.

    Sean H. Well-Known Member

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    Mark 16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The article goes in a few directions, but it's fairly good in my opinion.

    There are a lot of complications that involve a physical resurrection. There's a bounty of evidence to support the idea that it was a spiritual one.

    I don't have a lot of time, but for the moment take a look at the end of the Gospels and read about Paul's vision (can't remember where it is).

    Actually at the end of John where the disciples are fishing and Jesus meets them, Jesus asks them if they have found any fish, when they tell him no, he tells them to throw their net on the right side of the boat and they will catch some. When they did, they caught a great number of fish. Jesus then told his disciples to love him and to take care of his sheep.

    This event doesn't happen in the other Gospels. Moreover in the story, neither Jesus nor the disciples eat any fish, the story ends there. Paul's vision is a telling example, in my opinion, as to what actually occurred after Jesus's death. I see no reason why to suggest Paul has some kind of ego. In my opinion, it's quite the opposite.

    In my opinion, the most important symbolism is that after hearing Jesus the disciples were able to catch a large net of fish. Note the similarity between the events and....

    Matthew 4:19 And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
     
  10. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    he is the first man to be raised to glory both spiritually and bodily.
     
  11. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Hmmm ...
    ostrich.jpg
     
  12. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Let's hear from both sides.

    Here is the Christian view I would expect from an hardcore preacher.

    From John MacArthur:

    This is what I am having trouble with.
     
  13. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    If I may clear up some things. It seems there is some confusion over the term "spiritual body" in I Corinthians 15, as if only the spirit was resurrected. But that is not what it says. Through out this text, it speaks of a body being changed from an natural body to a spiritual body, and it gives the example of a grain of wheat. The implication here is that the grain of wheat falls to ground and dies, but in sowing that grain, it brings forth life from itself, in other words, out of the same substance. It is the same for the human body when it dies in a natural body it is sown to earth for a time, but resurrects to a spiritual body.

    When speaking of a spiritual body, let's get away from the idea that "spirit" mean a non-physical etheral form. All it is saying here it that the body will be raised in a better form than the natural form we have now. And we only have to look to Jesus as proof of this.

    After Jesus' resurrection, it is true that He possessed a body that could do all kinds of unusual things. It could be disguised as in the case of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, and a gardener to Mary at the tomb (which also begs the question of where is the body if it were only a spiritual resurrection). Jesus was also able to disappear and appear in a locked room at will. And He had the ability to rise in the air at His ascension.

    All these things might appear that He was in a spirit, etheral form. But even He in Luke 24 denies this:

    "And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet." - Luke 24:36-40

    But even this wasn't able to convince them, so what does Jesus do? He eats:

    "And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
    And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." - Luke 24:41-43

    Now if Jesus didn't have a body with some kind of physicality to it, I don't think He would be able to eat physical food. I envision something along the line of that Casper movie where the one ghost is trying to eat and all the food passes through him and falls to the ground.

    The body Jesus had is not like ours now, but still a body, one that will never see corruption, nor pain, nor sorrow, nor death. Somewhere, somehow, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in real form, perhaps in some other dimension we don't know about, but it is physical. A physical, spiritual body.
     
  14. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info Dondi. Did you check out that link Andrew posted up?

    Skip down to page 200 and read from there.

     
  15. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    one more question!

    I apologize for quoting those back-to-back, because I was reacting on emotion. If a person believes in the resurrection, they would have to choose either a spiritual or material resurrection. Sean, the link you sent me blew me away! However, most Christians believe in the material resurrection, and this does bring in many complications. I have one question. It is for anybody.

    Matthew said: "While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' If this report gets to the governer, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

    OK. I know that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, but how could one still interpret it as a spiritual one? They ordered the tomb to be secure. Why would they do that?
     
  16. BlaznFattyz

    BlaznFattyz Well-Known Member

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    Re: one more question!

    perishable and corruptible is our physical body, the imperishable and incorruptible is our spiritual body. the resurrection of christ is the raising and transformation of his physical body into a glorified and spiritual state of immortality.
     
  17. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    It is not a question of whether the body of Jesus was a physical one, or a spiritual one. This is a false dichotomy. Dondi gets at this in his most recent post.

    Rather, the Redeemed body of Jesus of Nazareth, pretty much PRE-Crucifixion, and clearly post-Crucifixion, was one in which the substance had been completely changed. Even the Transfigured man will know that this is true. Yet the ability to bi-locate, and to walk through walls, may not be perfected until the Renunciation experience which Jesus (like others) underwent.

    I would disagree that this simply makes him a bit like Caspar the friendly ghost, however. Friendly yes, Caspar-like, yes, but even Initiates of a much lower standing are capable of this. It essentially describes the disciple's training on how to serve God on the astral plane (the emotional world), relative to - or opposed to - the physical. And many, many tens of thousands of disciples ... serve in this manner. Also consider those out of incarnation, as well as those who are now in a (physical) body.

    Every world religion teaches the existence of an astral (emotional) body, including the Eastern traditions, which have done so for many thousands of years pre-dating Christianity. I like to believe that in the West, a different manner of presentation may have become popular, but that there is no dividing line ... so that as soon as you hit, say, the borders of China, people do not suddenly have more spiritual bodies than those of us here in the West. And there are Western Masters, other than Jesus, just as there are Eastern. All of them train their disciples in how to transcend the astral worlds, as well as the physical.

    But again, while I would agree with the idea which Blazn has just posted, what I believe is that it is the nature of the world we live in, and also of the opportunity that God has provided for each and all of us, to Redeem our `fallen' nature ... that we may be as Christ Jesus. The `fallen' only means that we are in Generation, rather than abiding, eternally, with our Soul Transcendent ... in `Heaven.' And the Fall, having been God's direct Instruction to each of us upon Spiritual levels, is in fact, God's own Plan - for the spiritual development of His Children.

    He sends us forth, unexperienced, unknowing, unwise and unloving (non-wise, and non-loving), but only in the sense that we are like a blank slate, waiting to be completed. And it is up to us (with God's help, with each other's help, and by the example and Teaching of the Prophets) ... to learn to write upon the tablet just that which is worthy to be preserved, forever, in Heaven.

    Many scrawlings appear upon the tablet for each of us, ere we pass into the astral world following death. Not all of these marks are worthy of being entered into our permanent record (the Temple not made with human hands) ... as some do not help to express the Light and Love, but rather, run counter to the Laws of God. And this is why we are given an opportunity to learn which of those ways are Gods, and which are not conducive to the spiritual development of our Immortal Nature, the Soul.

    Upon our return, we may not remember the exact experiences (and thank God for that!) ... but the lessons which have been taught us, in the in-between worlds, just as here upon physical earth, will remain with us forever. It is only up to us to decide, whether or not we will learn from them, choose to advance, and APPLY them during (this) life. It is easier, sometimes, not to, but harder, and more painful, in the long run.

    Jesus taught all of this. Read the Bible ... consider this.

    Love and Light,

    ~andrew
     
  18. inhumility

    inhumility Active Member

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    Hi

    I think neither JesusYeshuaIssa got killed on the Cross, and hence, nor he got resurrected from the dead. He was delivered from the Cross in near-dead position, he was treated in the tomb where he was laid, and when he got recovered from his injuries he came out from the tomb and from Galilee alongwith Mary he migrated to India.

    Please read a research article from Holger Kersten, a German research scholar on this issue.
    http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm

    Jesus Lived in India- Holger Kersten

    Thanks
     
  19. bob x

    bob x Well-Known Member

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    I think 40 days is all that he lived after the experience. There is no such thing as recovering from such injuries. That he stood up again at all is the great miracle in the story.
     

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