The Missing Books of the Bible

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by foundationist.org, Apr 4, 2003.

  1. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    halachic judaism is certainly working on that assumption - a lot of arguments that are currently in a state of deadlock on a number of issues are waiting for him to resolve them. come to think of it, that might just be why he hasn't shown up yet - he's seen his in-tray. deary me.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  2. DeaconJustin

    DeaconJustin Member

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    Whether one can reliably say that no human agenda can take the Holy Spirit from the Church is touchy at best; I think, at the very least, people can ignore what they're being told in favour of their own agendas. It's funny, because lately, we seem to assume that everything we are doing is guided by the Holy Spirit and that we're doing the will of God. We never stop to wonder if maybe, just maybe we're following the advice of that other cosmic figure, whose lot in life is to deceive.

    The Epistles are an interesting problem in terms of the Biblical canon. An Epistle is simply a letter of instruction written by a bishop to address a specific problem with the church in a specific place. Paul wrote them, James wrote them, Peter wrote them, Clement wrote them, John Paul II writes them, and so does Bartholomeos I. Epistles, ancient and modern, are issue-specific documents. They were included in the canon, at least from my point of view, as a guide for the successors of the apostles in dealing with certain issues; they weren't ever meant to be elevated to near the same status as the gospels.
     
  3. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Good point - and if I may qualify my earlier comment - it was which Epistles should be included in the canon that was particularly problematic. Some were included despite particular questions - not least of authenticity - and other popular texts, such as the Shepherd of Hermas and I Clement, were somewhat surprisingly omitted from the final canon (but are present in some older Codices).
     
  4. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    There is a church here in Singapore that was known as a place of healing in the 70s and 80s. Miracles of healing used to happen there, from what I can gather, on a regular basis (even to the point of several per service). At a certain point, they were warned by a prophet that pride was entering the church, and that if they did not take steps to change things, they would lose their gift of healing. They lost it.

    I basically agree with you, Deacon: our Holy Spirit can come and go as he pleases, and I think it's clear that he leaves churches when he is ignored because of the kinds of agendas we've been talking about. Still, I don't think he can be taken from individuals because of the pride of the rest of the congregation, because I don't think he would leave one person because of another's sin.
     
  5. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Old yes I know, but I wished to hit on this point..... (great quote by the way.)

    Could you please (I am not going to paste it as I wish for you to look in your bible.) Book: ACTS: Chapter 19. Verses 19 to 20.... Can you please explain this to me? So that I am clear? As I feel I maybe taking it the wrong way....

    Thank you.
     
  6. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Old? That is an understatement! That quote is from 2003, April! It's growing hair!

    I never "met" Mr. Ecumenical, that's how long ago. This is a full eight months before I signed on here! I don't think you're gonna get him to answer, Angel...

    Might be my bad, we'll see:

    Acts 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

    Acts 19:20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

    In my humble opinion, I think it is explained pretty clearly in the preceeding few verses.
     
  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Reading those two verses it seems "burn anything that isn't teaching you of christianity." Which I see as wrong... And commented on the other christians comment about tragedy to destroy books...

    Reading the entire chapter over again (twice) I still not sure I think I need help explaining it... They burned the books in fear that another would become possesed by a demon? (shruggs shoulders) although wrong to destroy books and I guess they should have taken refuge in that which they seemed to not know (Holy spirit) they instead burned the books? So the bible isn't saying burn all books that are not christian it is just giving an account of what happened to the people paul met? (help lol)
     
  8. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Dude, leading up to this point some boys was fooling around playing with devils, and the devils jumped on 'em. Yeah, I'm makin a little light of the subject, but that is what the passage says. The devils acknowledged they recognized (and obeyed) Jesus, but did not recognize these kids. Long story short, the kids was playing with fire and they got their fingers burned good.

    Those who knew them and witnessed the event brought their *witchcraft* books to be destroyed...to prevent a further occurrence.

    Stay with the context and the subject matter. It's really not all that difficult. When you get to pick and pull out of context a person can make the Bible seem to state all kinds of silly things that are just not what the writers meant at all.
     
  9. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    i think it was more like they were making it public that they were not needed anymore .
    because they had become christians they now knew that the teachings in those books were wrong , it is a bit like casting of wrong teachings when we come to an accurate knowledge of the truth . ..... gone for good .....


    The Scriptural advice is direct

    Have nothing to do with spiritism.


    What if we have been sharing in some practice of spiritism and now want to break free?

    we can follow the example of early Christians in the city of Ephesus.
    When they accepted "the word of Jehovah," the Bible says, "quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody." Those books were costly.
    They were worth 50,000 pieces of silver. (Acts 19:19, 20) Yet, Christians in Ephesus did not hesitate to destroy them.
     
  10. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Cite your sources Mee. It's pretty obvious, you don't even bother to change the font.

    I think we have to discern between spiritism and magical arts in this case. Even when I wrote the term "witchcraft" I was uncomfortable, I'm not quite sure that's the term I want to use. Whatever, the books that were destroyed dealt with arcane and occult subject matter, I would think at least in part specifically necromancy. Necromancy has been forbidden in Judaism going back thousands of years. The example that comes readily to mind is that of King Saul when he sought out the witch (of Endor?).
     
  11. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Yeah, that's pretty close. The writer describes the events surrounding a particular incident. In this case, what happened to the boys caused enough concern and shock in the neighborhood that these people *voluntarily* put their books in a pile and burned them. This was a specific situation, not a command or even suggestion to carry this out elsewhere.
     
  12. Out There

    Out There Servant of God

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    Books of the Old Testament that are lost
    by Ibn Anwar
    It is often claimed by Christian missionaries that the Old Testament is completely preserved with little or no error at all. This is supposedly proven by the discovery of the so called Dead Sea Scrolls. However, within the texts of the old Testament themselves we find mention of books that are now all but lost. Could they have once been considered inspired, but no longer survive? ​
    1. The Book of the Wars of the Lord(Sepher Milkhamot Adonai)
    “Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the LORD, “Waheb in Suphah, And the wadis of the Arnon,” (Numbers 21:14)​

    Timothy R. Ashley says:
    “14-15 A citation from a source called the Book of Wars of Yahweh supports the claim made in v. 13. The exact nature of this work is “unknown”, since the only fragment of it is the poetry cited in vv. 14-15, unless the poem in vv. 17-18a is also from it. The title of the work suggests that it contained songs celebrating Yahweh’s victories against his enemies.” [1]
    Matthew Henry says:
    “we are not particularly told, but are referred to the book of the wars of the Lord, perhaps that book which was begun with the history of the war with the Amalekites, Ex. 17:14. Write it (said God) for a memorial in a book[2] (emphasis added)
    Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary says:
    book of the wars of the Lord–A fragment or passage is here quoted from a poem or history of the wars of the Israelites, principally with a view to decide the position of Arnon.” [3]
    John Gill’s Exposition on the Bible:
    “Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the Lord,…. A history of wars in former times” [4]
    The author of Izhar Al-Haq quotes the commentators Henry and Scott:
    “Presumably this book was written by Moses for the guidance of Joshua and described the demacration of the land of Moab.” [5]
    2.The Book of Jasher(Sepher Ha Yashar)
    “So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.” (Joshua 10:13)
    “and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the book of Jashar.”(2 Samuel 1:18)​
    Gnana Robinson comments on 2 Samuel 1:18,
    ” “It is written in the Book of Jashar,” literally “the Book of the Upright”. Another poetical piece attributed to the book of this name is Josh. 10:12-14.” Similar literary collections of various sorts seem to have been circulating among the people (e.g. the Book of the Wars of Yahweh, Num. 2:14); this shows that the collection of poems was made well before Samuel was edited and written.” [6]
    Rev. Prof. Herbert G. May remarks,
    “The Deuteronomist makes the poem the words of Joshua, but the poem itself is non-committal as to the speaker. The Book of Jasher is also quoted in 2 Sam. 1:18, and in the LXX of 1 Kg. 8:53. It was apparently a collection of poems. Compare the Book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14).” [7]
    Concerning Joshua 10:13 Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary says:
    “The passage, which is parenthetical, contains a poetical description of the victory which was miraculously gained by the help of God, and forms an extract from “the book of Jasher,” that is, “the upright”–an anthology, or collection of national songs, in honor of renowned and eminently pious heroes.” [8]
    John Gill’s Exposition on 2nd Samuel 1:18:
    “behold, it is written in book of Jasher); which the Targum calls the book of the law; and Jarchi and Ben Gersom restrain it to the book of Genesis, the book of the upright, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and suppose respect is had to the prophecy concerning Judah, Genesis 49:8, but Kimchi, extending it to all the five books of Moses, adds his blessing, in Deuteronomy 33:7. In the Arabic version it is explained of the book of Samuel, interpreted the book of songs, as if it was a collection of songs; which favours the above sense. Jerom {s} interprets it of the same book, the book of the righteous prophets, Samuel, Gad, and Nathan…” [9] (emphasis added)​
    Lost proverbs of Solomon
    “He also spoke 3,000 proverbs, and his songs were 1,005.”(1 Kings 4:32)​
    John Gill’s Exposition:
    And he spake three thousand proverbs,…. Wise sayings, short and pithy sentences, instructive in morality and civil life; these were not written as the book of Proverbs, but spoken only, and were taken from his lips, and spread by those that heard them for the use of others, but in process of time were lost…” [10] (emphasis added)
    On the verse the Methodist theologian Adam Clarke explains:
    “He spake three thousand proverbs] The book of Proverbs, attributed to Solomon, contain only about nine hundred or nine hundred and twenty-three distinct proverbs; and if we grant with some that the first nine chapters are not the work of Solomon, then all that can be attributed to him is only about six hundred and fifty.​
    Of all his one thousand and five songs or poems we have only one, the book of Canticles, remaining, unless we include Psalm cxxvii. 1-5, Except the Lord build the house, &c., which in the title is said to be by or for him, though it appears more properly to be a psalm of direction, left him by his father David, relative to the building of the temple. “
    He laments in his notes on verse 33:
    “O, how must the heart of Tournefort, Ray, Linne, Buffon, Cuvier, Swammerdam, Blosch, and other naturalists, be wrung, to know that these works of Solomon are all and for ever lost! What light should we have thrown on the animal and vegetable kingdoms, had these works been preserved![11] (emphasis added)

    The Books of Samuel the Seer, the Prophet Nathan and Gad the Seer
    “Now the acts of king David first and last are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer:” (1 Chronicles 29:29)​
    All of the books mentioned in the verse have all DISAPPEARED.
    Adam Clarke says,
    ” The acts of David-first and last] Those which concerned him in private life, as well as those which grew out of his regal government. All these were written by three eminent men, personally acquainted with him through the principal part of his life; these were Samuel and Gad the seers, and Nathan the prophet. These writings are all lost, except the particulars interspersed in the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, none of which are the records mentioned here.” [12]

    The Book of Isaiah the Prophet
    This is yet another book which is totally LOST. It so happens that it was written by the major Old Testament prophet, Isaiah.​
    “Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first to last, the prophet Isaiah, the son of Amoz, has written.” (2 Chronicles 26:22)​
    Adam Clark says,
    “The rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet-write.] This work, however, is totally lost; for we have not any history of this king in the writings of Isaiah. He is barely mentioned, Isa. i. 1; vi. 1. ” [13] (emphasis added)
    John Gill says,
    “Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last,…. What were done by him, both in the beginning and latter end of his reign:
    did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write: not in his own prophecy, but in the history of his own times, which was usual for every prophet to write, though now lost, see 2 Kings 15:6.” [14] (emphasis added)​


    **More missing books to come, insha’Allah**

    References:
    [1] Timothy R. Ashley. The Book of Numbers. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 411
    [2] Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible / Commentary on the Whole Bible Volume I (Genesis to Deuteronomy) | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    [3] Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Bible Commentary
    [4] John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    [5] Izhar Al- Haq. p. 166
    [6] Gnana Robinson. 1 & 2 Samuel, Internationl Theological Commentary(1993). William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company and The Handsel Press Limited. p. 157
    [7] H. G. May. Peake’s Commentary on the Bible. Joshua(1962). Routledge. p. 297
    [8] Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Bible Commentary
    [9] John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    [10] John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    [11] Adam Clarke's Commentary - 1 Kings 4
    [12]http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke1chr29.htm
    [13] Adam Clarke's Commentary - 2 Chronicles 26
    [14] John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    And there is always Enoch...and it is available?
     
  14. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    This one yet survives:
    SEFER MILHAMOT HA-SCEM
    It can be found here:
    Camillo - The war against the Zohar
    makes for some interesting reading.

     
  15. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    Supplement to the original introduction to Sefer Milhhamot Part 1

    5. For our purposes here, in introducing the unfortunately necessary war against the false Kabbalah, let it be said that the Tzadik Haim allowed the revelation of these facts for reason of ‘Et la-assaot la-Adonai Eloheinu, heifiru toratecha’ ( it is a time to act for the sake of the Lord, our God, for they have violated Your Torah). It was an historical necessity that a true and authoritative voice of the true Kabbalah speak out once and for all against that great sea of Kabbalistic literature all based on a common error of an erroneous theology and thus false Torah. The true Tzadik knows the authority of his voice, and his affirmations are, so to speak, immediately ‘sealed’ before the Higher Tribunal. The Tzadik knew as well that he was in a pure state of ‘sacrifice’ before God and that his every word was immediately accepted. Let the identity of the Tzadik be known but the Holy Wars of God against the false Kabbalah must be made known to the people of Israel.
    Also the great accomplishment of Yihyeh ElGafeh’s efforts had been redeemed and the truth of his entire exposition had come unto the time of its objective. Previous to the arrival of this book, the Tzadik Haim had explained to me that all Israel was in error concerning the Zohar and that its doctrines were anything but true Kabbalah and that they led to every kind of idolatrous thought. The Tzadik raged fire in redeeming the name of the holy Tanai, Rabbi Shimon ben Yohhai, from being attributed to this work and he cursed Moshe de Leon for the spiritual catastrophe that he caused to Israel in the later days of its history. I had no permission, however, to speak of this, and , as mentioned, it took ten years for the sefer to arrive.
    In general the Teacher did not go into details in explaining the error of the Zohar. That was not the Tzadik’s purpose with me. He elongated much more on the money-sin of Moshe de Leon and how he had received for his texts great sums of money from the poor souls of rich merchants who believed them written by Shimon ben Yohhai. For the details of the error, the Tzadik relied on the eventual arrival of Milhhamot Ha-Shem. What the Tzadik did explain was that the basic mistake lay in interpreting the words of the Torah literally, such as the ‘hand of God’, ‘and God descended on Mount Sinai’ and all the other anthropomorphic terminology used in the Torah and by the Prophets.
    “They did not heed the Great Eagle’s warnings” the Tzadik Haim would often repeat. “The Rambam, peace be upon him, warned all Israel, especially in Moreh Nevuchim, from taking these terms to the letter. Instead the kabbilists made a ‘shiur qoma’, a cosmic positioning of His stature, God forbid. They forgot to understand that you cannot contain God in any form whatsoever, earthly or cosmic. The terms of the Torah regarding such come, as the Sages, of blessed memory explain, ‘only to let the ear hear what it might for the sake of letting it hear something’. This is so that one have some idea of how the Holy One, Blessed is He, manifested something of His sanctity to the world, but not to be taken to the letter.”
    In other discourses on this matter, the Teacher would exclaim, “It’s amazing how profoundly the nation sleeps. If all these kabbalistic books contain the secrets of the Torah and the secrets of the worlds above, how would all these be called secrets, if they are written down for all to read!? But they contain a false metaphysical doctrine based on human understanding and human understanding is totally insufficient for understanding what is above nor can the true secrets above be described in human terminology without coming to error. They did not have the humility to lower their heads in the knowledge of ‘tamim t’hiyeh im ha-Shem Elohecha’ - (Be of a simple heart with the Lord, your God). The human intellect cannot understand what the Creator of the heavens and earth is!”
    This theme would come back again and again in the Teacher’s words. The nation had fallen because those who believed themselves the carriers of the tradition had come to relish the thoughts of their own intellect until they forgot the barriers of humalimit. After this they fell into the false lights of Satan’s wisdom, fooling themselves and all who came under their influence. And also the false god Mamon came unto its midst to entice the spreading of the Zohar which teaches the secrets of the Torah to all those who pay good prices for entrance into the hidden doctrines of the Kabbalah.
    The Tzadik would often teach me, “All of them together, using all the ‘names’ and ‘kavvanot’ mentioned in their books would not be capable of lifting a glass even one centimetre from the table”. This is an important teaching. I hope to explain something of it further on in this introduction.
     
  16. Amergin

    Amergin Well-Known Member

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    The Lost Chapters of Genesis:

    Archaeologists in Iraq’s Euphrates Valley found an ancient copy of the Book of Genesis older than any other. There were some notable differences from the altered version forged later by Moses. Moses didn’t like the feminist content and altered them to a Patriarchal society. All Moses did was to alter a few key words as you can see. Refer to your KJV Genesis 2 which has the later altered version. Here is the original.


    Gen 2:7 “And the Lord Goddess formed woman from the dust of the ground, and breathed into her nostrils the breath of life, and woman became a living soul.”

    Gen.2:18 “And the Goddess said, It is not good that woman should be alone; I will make for her an help meet for her.”

    Gen. 2:19 “And out of the ground the Lord Goddess formed every beast of the ground, and every fowl of the air: and brought them unto Eve to see what she would call them; and whatsoever Eve called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”

    Gen.2:20 “And Eve gave names to all the cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Eve there was not found an help meet for her.”

    Gen.2:21 “And the Lord Goddess caused a deep sleep to fall upon Eve and she slept: and She took one of her haemorrhoids from her rectum, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;”

    Gen.2:22 “And the haemorrhoid which the Lord Goddess had taken from woman, made She a man, and brought him unto the woman.”

    From that time on most men were viewed as “pains in the arses” by women, and as “arse-holes” by their kids. J

    Amergin
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Can you provide a source reference for this?

    I would have thought such a find would be 'headline news' ...

    Thomas
     
  18. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Sounds like a feminist joke, alas. :)
     
  19. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    shawn, this is just the name of the book that this r. qafih wrote criticising the zohar, it does not purport to be the actual sefer milhamot haShem:

    Yi?yah Qafi? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    although, i have to say, this *did* make very interesting reading, i hadn't heard of these dor daim guys before:

    Dor Daim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    but within the context of the yemenite reverence for rambam (maimonides) it makes total sense; rambam himself was not a mequbal and had some decidedly unique views on mysticism that were not part of the provencal, castilian and catalonian schools that eventually became dominant. there are other modern schools that object to the dominance of lurianic over, say, cordoveran kabbalah, just as there are obviously some that dislike the zohar. i've just begun studying zohar myself (i've just hit 40) but it is distinctly different from studying, say, sefer yetzirah or the bahir. either way, i don't think it's a simple question.

    incidentally, there are also traditional answers about what the lost books actually are; some of them claim that they are alternative titles for one or other books of the Tanakh. personally, i don't have an opinion.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  20. Amergin

    Amergin Well-Known Member

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    The Lost Chapters of Genesis:

    Archaeologists in Iraq’s Euphrates Valley found an ancient copy of the Book of Genesis older than any other. There were some notable differences from the altered version forged later by Moses. Moses didn’t like the feminist content and altered them to a Patriarchal society. All Moses did was to alter a few key words as you can see. Refer to your KJV Genesis 2 which has the altered version. Here is the original.


    Gen 2:7 “And the Lord Goddess formed woman from the dust of the ground, and breathed into her nostrils the breath of life, and woman became a living soul.”

    Gen.2:18 “And the Goddess said, It is not good that woman should be alone; I will make for her an help meet for her.”

    Gen. 2:19 “And out of the ground the Lord Goddess formed every beast of the ground, and every fowl of the air: and brought them unto Eve to see what she would call them; and whatsoever Eve called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”

    Gen.2:20 “And Eve gave names to all the cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Eve there was not found an help meet for her.”

    Gen.2:21 “And the Lord Goddess caused a deep sleep to fall upon Eve and she slept: and She took one of her haemorrhoids from her rectum, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;”

    Gen.2:22 “And the haemorrhoid which the Lord Goddess had taken from woman, made She a man, and brought him unto the woman.”

    From that time on most men were viewed as “pains in the arses” by women, and as “arse-holes” by their kids. J

    Amergin


     

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